BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Strasse Wheels
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-26-2008, 01:51 PM   #89
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Yes, in several countries, cars are taxes based on displacement among other things.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2008, 03:44 PM   #90
sayemthree
Brigadier General
sayemthree's Avatar
127
Rep
4,845
Posts

 
Drives: bmw
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: usa

iTrader: (0)

Here's what I think of the IS-F interior (wink-wink):

Appreciate 0
      04-26-2008, 04:59 PM   #91
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,907
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Bruce, since you brought up perceived RS4 vs. M3 torque differences at the low-end several times, I couldn't resist thinking about the numbers. Here they are for both cars in 2nd gear. Obviosly, the RS4 will have more traction below 2500, but how much more and is that enought to offset the weight difference? (I assume we can agree that rotational intertia issues are pretty much a wash here.)

On the part throttle issue: what throttle mapping did you drive the M3 at?

Attachment 149237

Attachment 149238

Values adjusted for temp and hum. http://www.rri.se/index.php?DN=29
I don't see the point.

Everybody who does any even moderately intensive sampling of these two cars comes up with the same perception. The RS4 just flat feels more torquey than the M3 at low to middling rpm (and low to middling throttle, by the way). I also personally don't remember any soft spot at all in the RS4's torque band.

Near as I can tell, the M3 is faster than the RS4 from any speed to any other speed in a drag race (except off the line).

So what. Either way so what. The RS4 just feels torquey compared to the M3 when just driving around - regardless of throttle mapping.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2008, 05:11 PM   #92
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,907
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Don't forget the KEY additional factor you can not really feel torque but you sure can feel torque/lb! It all comes back to the accuracy of the butt-ometer and I think many folks think there butt is better than a real accelerometer.
I don't know about what others think, but I certainly think my "butt" is better than any accelerometer. I have a couple of them, and they are simply not part of this particular equation. As mentioned to lucid, it's clear that except for the initial launch, the M3 is quicker than the RS4 at full throttle, but that's not what anyone is talking about.

There are a number of factors that go into the perception of speed, only one of which is the sensitivity of our g-receptors.

This issue has come up several times, including the M3 vs 335 massive debate. Yup. The M3 is faster than the 335 as well, but the 335 just feels more effortless in the way it gathers speed while just driving around - as does the RS4.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2008, 05:13 PM   #93
Krueger///M3
Major
Krueger///M3's Avatar
United_States
28
Rep
1,401
Posts

 
Drives: 2003 HPF 2.5, 2008 M3 (Sold)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pearl District, OR

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2002 BMW ///M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW ///M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I don't know about what others think, but I certainly think my "butt" is better than any accelerometer. I have a couple of them.

Bruce
Wait, you have a couple of butts?
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2008, 10:02 PM   #94
Hans Delbruck
BMW & MB - friends in my garage
Hans Delbruck's Avatar
United_States
21
Rep
1,285
Posts

 
Drives: C63, 135i, 1959 BUICK
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

My CA tells me my order for the M3 went in on Thursday. Waiting for order status update.

f yeah.
__________________
2009 135i 6MT Euro Delivery 9/5/09
BMW Performance Power Kit - Exhaust - Short Shifter
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2008, 10:06 PM   #95
ase2dais
//Mdicted
ase2dais's Avatar
United_States
126
Rep
9,874
Posts

 
Drives: a Cop Magnet
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: 495 Ring

iTrader: (17)

Garage List
I guess you didnt go for your ISF too huh?

Last edited by ase2dais; 04-26-2008 at 10:22 PM.
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2008, 11:14 PM   #96
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I don't see the point.

Everybody who does any even moderately intensive sampling of these two cars comes up with the same perception. The RS4 just flat feels more torquey than the M3 at low to middling rpm (and low to middling throttle, by the way). I also personally don't remember any soft spot at all in the RS4's torque band.

Near as I can tell, the M3 is faster than the RS4 from any speed to any other speed in a drag race (except off the line).

So what. Either way so what. The RS4 just feels torquey compared to the M3 when just driving around - regardless of throttle mapping.

Bruce
I don't know Bruce. You're saying the M3 is faster, but then you are saying the RS4 feels more torquey. I guess this has been the main point of contention in all of this. I personally don't really care about how one car "feels" with regards to torque compared to the other one. All that matters to me are the facts--if one car indeed has more available torque than the other at any part of the rpm range. The rest is all subjective, and not worth arguing about.

In my book, ultimately, if one is to ponder the need to implement the type of "fix" you suggested earlier for this "percieved" "soft spot" problem, one would better make sure the perceived problem is indeed a fact, or otherwise one would be modding to please one's mistaken senses only, and nothing else, which might be just fine.

As an example: I am glad pilots don't trust their senses too much and refer to the instruments to assess performance variables. Otherwise, 1 out 1000 flights in bad weather would mosy likely result in a crash.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2008, 11:15 PM   #97
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
My CA tells me my order for the M3 went in on Thursday. Waiting for order status update.

f yeah.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 02:29 AM   #98
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I don't know Bruce. You're saying the M3 is faster, but then you are saying the RS4 feels more torquey.
...
Agreeing with lucid here. You sound quite contradictory. One feels like it has more torque but the other is clearly faster (at low rpm). But then you go on to talk about "effortless" What is important to you, fast, "torquey", effortless or the sensation of fast? For the great insight you have in to the perceptions of speed and the various contributing factors (yes discussed much in the past - and I thought we agreed 100%) I think it now sound like you just don't get it.

And the part about you and your butt being better than a real acceleromter - get over yourself, you can't truly believe that. Maybe the F1 guys should drop their telemetry programs entirely.
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 05:45 PM   #99
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,907
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I don't know Bruce. You're saying the M3 is faster, but then you are saying the RS4 feels more torquey. I guess this has been the main point of contention in all of this. I personally don't really care about how one car "feels" with regards to torque compared to the other one. All that matters to me are the facts--if one car indeed has more available torque than the other at any part of the rpm range. The rest is all subjective, and not worth arguing about.
I understand your viewpoint, and of course that's fine with me.

On the other hand, for me how a car feels is just as important as the stats it generates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
In my book, ultimately, if one is to ponder the need to implement the type of "fix" you suggested earlier for this "percieved" "soft spot" problem, one would better make sure the perceived problem is indeed a fact, or otherwise one would be modding to please one's mistaken senses only, and nothing else, which might be just fine.
As you've read elsewhere by now, after driving the car I personally don't think a fix is needed. I agree with the myriad reports about a certain softness in the car at lower rpm and throttle settings, but don't see it as a problem.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 06:15 PM   #100
WCH
Major
WCH's Avatar
United_States
16
Rep
1,227
Posts

 
Drives: '14 F10 M5 SG
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
My CA tells me my order for the M3 went in on Thursday. Waiting for order status update.

f yeah.
Congrats on your order and for holding out!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 06:45 PM   #101
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I understand your viewpoint, and of course that's fine with me.

On the other hand, for me how a car feels is just as important as the stats it generates.
OK, Bruce, I think after several months of consideration we are agreeing on various things here. I guess we can put the chainsaws back in the garage.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 06:50 PM   #102
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,907
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Agreeing with lucid here. You sound quite contradictory. One feels like it has more torque but the other is clearly faster (at low rpm).
Flat out, the M3 is faster - even at low and middling rpm. At part throttle and low rpm, the RS4 feels more responsive. Now that I've driven both, I agree with the myriad others that you and lucid beat up on way back when.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
But then you go on to talk about "effortless" What is important to you, fast, "torquey", effortless or the sensation of fast?
All of those are important to me. Pretty much equally, I might add. Each of those attributes is a mighty fine thing to have in a car - to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
For the great insight you have in to the perceptions of speed and the various contributing factors (yes discussed much in the past - and I thought we agreed 100%) I think it now sound like you just don't get it.
Perhaps with these answers, you will finally begin to get it. The idea that a car may have very different characteristics when just being chauffered around compared to when you're seriously hauling the mail is simple and elementary. lucid has recently commented on the Jekyl and Hyde characteristics of his car (my words, not his), in case you forgot. He thinks BMW had that in mind, and he very well may be right.

Everybody who has driven the car comments in one way or another about how the second half of the pedal and second half of the rev range are the good halves. What is so hard to understand about another car (the RS4, for instance) that may have slightly better first halves, and slightly worse second halves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
And the part about you and your butt being better than a real acceleromter - get over yourself, you can't truly believe that. Maybe the F1 guys should drop their telemetry programs entirely.
What I specifically said was: "I don't know about what others think, but I certainly think my "butt" is better than any accelerometer. I have a couple of them, and they are simply not part of this particular equation."

Other than the awkward wording, what I was trying to convey was that an accelerometer is of no use in determining part-throttle "feel". One car may answer the throttle better than another in a particular rpm range, with either more acceleration or a more linear feel, or both. Full throttle g readings are simply beside the point - except in a drag race, of course.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 06:57 PM   #103
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Flat out, the M3 is faster - even at low and middling rpm. At part throttle and low rpm, the RS4 feels more responsive. Now that I've driven both, I agree with the myriad others that you and lucid beat up on way back when.
Just when I thought we were in agreement...

I didn't beat up on anybody re: part throttle. You are still missing my point. I don't give a damn about part throttle. If you go back to that thread and read what I wrote carefully, you'll see that I am talking about available torque at a given rpm. I don't care how you get to the available torque as long as it is available. The rest is irrelevant to me, and I've made that clear a million times now Bruce. In case you didn't notice, a myriad of others actually agreed/agree with this point. Engine response is a different issue than throttle mapping by the way.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 07:08 PM   #104
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,907
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Just when I thought we were in agreement...

I didn't beat up on anybody re: part throttle. You are still missing my point. I don't give a damn about part throttle. If you go back to that thread and read what I wrote carefully, you'll see that I am talking about available torque at a given rpm. I don't care how you get to the available torque as long as it is available. The rest is irrelevant to me, and I've made that clear a million times now Bruce. In case you didn't notice, a myriad of others actually agreed/agree with this point. Engine response is a different issue than throttle mapping by the way.
Three guys spoke about how the 335 feels a little more lively in everyday driving, and you and Swamp lit into them. I didn't stipulate the exact how and why in my reference, but it's perfectly fine with me if you feel the need to do that.

I don't exaggerate with the "lit into them" comment. You in fact were kind enough to apologize later on in the string.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 07:14 PM   #105
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Three guys spoke about how the 335 feels a little more lively in everyday driving, and you and Swamp lit into them. I didn't stipulate the exact how and why in my reference, but it's perfectly fine with me if you feel the need to do that.

I don't exaggerate with the "lit into them" comment. You in fact were kind enough to apologize later on in the string.

Bruce
Again, if you go back to that thread, you'll see that my objection had nothing to do with which car "felt" faster. My objection was to a specific claim that one car had more torque than the other. I didn't make up that claim or put words into anyone's mouth.

You and some others weren't exactly kind on that thread either if you remember when it comes up "lighting into" a post. That happens in a heated debate, and is OK as long as people recognize they might have been harsh and take action to correct it, which you also did.

I guess we are pulling off a here by the way...Sorry Hans.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 07:19 PM   #106
Hans Delbruck
BMW & MB - friends in my garage
Hans Delbruck's Avatar
United_States
21
Rep
1,285
Posts

 
Drives: C63, 135i, 1959 BUICK
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ase2dais View Post
I guess you didnt go for your ISF too huh?
No........... I'm impatient, but not stupid!

The IS-F is great, I just wouldn't be happy with it. I will still test the C63 but I did sit in one and look it over last week. There is a LOT of plastic in that car. Looks like some serious cost-cutting on MB's part for the new C Class. Pretty disappointing. Hopefully MB spent the money where it counts -- engine and drivetrain!

The M3 just has the competition beat in terms of cutting-edge technology. The engine, the M-DKG, the EDC.... it's a geek's dreamcar! (not that I'm smart enough to be a true geek)
__________________
2009 135i 6MT Euro Delivery 9/5/09
BMW Performance Power Kit - Exhaust - Short Shifter
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 07:29 PM   #107
Hans Delbruck
BMW & MB - friends in my garage
Hans Delbruck's Avatar
United_States
21
Rep
1,285
Posts

 
Drives: C63, 135i, 1959 BUICK
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCH View Post
Congrats on your order and for holding out!
Thanks guys! Looks like I'm not going to hold out for an '09 though. "I want it noooooow!" So an '08 it will be.
__________________
2009 135i 6MT Euro Delivery 9/5/09
BMW Performance Power Kit - Exhaust - Short Shifter
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 08:05 PM   #108
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
...

Other than the awkward wording, what I was trying to convey was that an accelerometer is of no use in determining part-throttle "feel".
I agree with most of this earlier post but you did not make that at all clear just prior. Also you are still wrong about accelerometers they are great for a tiny bit of acceleration, a lot of accleration, rapid jerk (i.e. changing acceleration), acceleration at any throttle setting, period. If you have some very abstract definition of part throttle "feel" that has nothing do do with acceleration then I agree a butt or even an opinion will do because you are not being precise and clear as to the metric. I agree with you that the sensation of acceleration is very important but to me not nearly as important as the actual acceleration. Either way where there is any significant margin of difference your butt will probably pick that up and if one is reasonably astute and able to separate other psychological acceleration cues from the true acceleration you really won't need an accelerometer.
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 08:49 PM   #109
WCH
Major
WCH's Avatar
United_States
16
Rep
1,227
Posts

 
Drives: '14 F10 M5 SG
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
Thanks guys! Looks like I'm not going to hold out for an '09 though. "I want it noooooow!" So an '08 it will be.
I hear you. Mine's on a truck somewhere between NJ and Boston. I paid for it today (in MA you have to pay before you pick it up unless you bring a certified check as it gets registered and comes with plates) so the anticipation, which was bad enough, is now at its peak. Unfortunately I won't be able to pick it up until Sat. It's going to rain for a couple of days so this is probably for the best.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2008, 09:04 PM   #110
Hans Delbruck
BMW & MB - friends in my garage
Hans Delbruck's Avatar
United_States
21
Rep
1,285
Posts

 
Drives: C63, 135i, 1959 BUICK
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCH View Post
I hear you. Mine's on a truck somewhere between NJ and Boston. I paid for it today (in MA you have to pay before you pick it up unless you bring a certified check as it gets registered and comes with plates) so the anticipation, which was bad enough, is now at its peak. Unfortunately I won't be able to pick it up until Sat. It's going to rain for a couple of days so this is probably for the best.

No way! Saturday!! It is strange how each step of the process changes how I feel about waiting. Since I learned that my order had been submitted, it's like I have M3 on the brain constantly. Not too different from falling in love..... hehe damn dopamine....
__________________
2009 135i 6MT Euro Delivery 9/5/09
BMW Performance Power Kit - Exhaust - Short Shifter
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:05 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST