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      04-13-2008, 05:25 PM   #111
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Larry Koch will be at the Boston Chapter meeting this Wednesday. I can try to ask some additional questions at the end.
Lucid,

Would you just ask Mr. Koch the following question: Given the overwhelming success of the R8, is the M division at all considering the possibility of returning to it's M1 heritage with a mid engine platform? Remind him that Edmunds believes BMW could even do even a better job than Audi with this platform and Audi has Lamborghini's R&D to fall back on.
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      04-13-2008, 06:05 PM   #112
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For the sake of argument, lets say there was a malfuction and both clutches fully engaged. They would both be turning in the same direction, just 1500 rpm (give or take) different. One or both clutches would then be slipping that much and yes, wear out very quickly, but the wheels aren't going to lock up.
If both clutches are "engaged" that means that neither is slipping and something has to give...hopefully the tires. With two ratios connected to one output shaft the driveline parts will get expensive.

If one of the clutches slips there will not be two ratios selected and you will only have additional clutch wear and heat. At some point (sooner than normal wear) the clutch will be worn out and need replacement. While still under warranty the new M3 owner will miss his car for a while…..after the warranty expires parts/service price shock will last a long time.

From experience I have seen drag race automatics “chirp” the tires because they have too much shift overlap and seen the clutches destroyed.

Lucid: Thanks for the link to the technical discussion on M-DCT.

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      04-13-2008, 06:42 PM   #113
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I will give you the AG version.

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Would you just ask Mr. Koch the following question: Given the overwhelming success of the R8, is the M division at all considering the possibility of returning to it's M1 heritage with a mid engine platform? Remind him that Edmunds believes BMW could even do even a better job than Audi with this platform and Audi has Lamborghini's R&D to fall back on.
Creatively the Audi R8 is simply an image boosting car for Audi , outside of Germany Audi sales and products are not as yet on the levels with BMW or Mercedes-Benz. Whilst BMW are considered to be leaders it is best to lead than to follow and to concentrate on other developments that would be everlasting than a supercar.

Once of the reasons why BMW did not get involved with the SLR , Carerra GT etc was because where are they now? They where fifteen minute projects waiting for the next one to come along.
Whilst the praise for Audi and it's R8 ( I actually like the R8 but I do not see the need for BMW to have such a car)
BMW could have concentrated on a SLR supercar but instead invested their R&D budget into upcoming products and it's "Efficient Dynamics" programme which offers much more of an image boost than a fifteen minute supercar project. While the Audi is the talking point of the moment.
Mercedes have an upcoming R8 Rival as is an imminent small Ferrari. Are we still going to talking about the R8 if the Ferrari and mercedes is as good as the previews make them out to be?

Whilst there is talk of a BMW supercar and certain factions would like to do such a vehicle the priorities have changed. If such a vehicle were to be concentrated on it would not be what you expect it to be. Yes it will be fast and incredibly light but would be powered by a high capacity , efficient engine with either BMW hybrid drive or hydrogen.
Such a project would showcase BMW's leadership as they want each of their products identified with "Efficient Dynamics" which means more efficiency and more technical developments without sacrificing dynamic pleasure.
For "Efficient Dynamics" look at the M-Division this will become the pinnacle programme of BMW's "Efficient Dynamics" There is so much that can be achieved which is why BMW are more interested in this direction because as of now the rivals are barely catching up.
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      04-13-2008, 07:20 PM   #114
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Thanks Scott,

Good to see you post again. Your long and thorough answer is very much appreciated. Will future M engines be more efficient as well?
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      04-13-2008, 07:51 PM   #115
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I will give you the AG version.



Creatively the Audi R8 is simply an image boosting car for Audi , outside of Germany Audi sales and products are not as yet on the levels with BMW or Mercedes-Benz. Whilst BMW are considered to be leaders it is best to lead than to follow and to concentrate on other developments that would be everlasting than a supercar.

Once of the reasons why BMW did not get involved with the SLR , Carerra GT etc was because where are they now? They where fifteen minute projects waiting for the next one to come along.
Whilst the praise for Audi and it's R8 ( I actually like the R8 but I do not see the need for BMW to have such a car)
BMW could have concentrated on a SLR supercar but instead invested their R&D budget into upcoming products and it's "Efficient Dynamics" programme which offers much more of an image boost than a fifteen minute supercar project. While the Audi is the talking point of the moment.
Mercedes have an upcoming R8 Rival as is an imminent small Ferrari. Are we still going to talking about the R8 if the Ferrari and mercedes is as good as the previews make them out to be?

Whilst there is talk of a BMW supercar and certain factions would like to do such a vehicle the priorities have changed. If such a vehicle were to be concentrated on it would not be what you expect it to be. Yes it will be fast and incredibly light but would be powered by a high capacity , efficient engine with either BMW hybrid drive or hydrogen.
Such a project would showcase BMW's leadership as they want each of their products identified with "Efficient Dynamics" which means more efficiency and more technical developments without sacrificing dynamic pleasure.
For "Efficient Dynamics" look at the M-Division this will become the pinnacle programme of BMW's "Efficient Dynamics" There is so much that can be achieved which is why BMW are more interested in this direction because as of now the rivals are barely catching up.

Thanks Scott, since you speak for AG where all the development is, the answer to my question # 1 is "NO".

The direction that you are heading with respect to "Efficient Dynamics" scares me a little. As an owner of the current M6 with the need to fill up every 300 kms for a full tank...there is much room for improvement. But the most important thing for me is the performance of the M car, followed by technology followed by luxury.

I realize I am fearful because I don't have details but if BMW M gmbh starts building fast versions of a Prius, I will be getting the new Ferrari or MB / McLaren. If M can deliver better performance than the current M6 with better fuel efficiency then sign me up.

This is an important point that I hope you can bring back to your management team. Performance with luxury above fuel efficiency. I know engineers love to get in a room and show case their talent but please ensure it is a ///M product that current ///M owners want. ///M owners want performance.


BTW, please don't let BMW USA hijack ///M cars again like putting the 6 speed manual transmission in the E60 M5....horrible.

I also copied your post over on the M5board here...

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...d.php?t=116897

I am sure you will get some good feedback from my fellow M5 / M6 owners.
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      04-13-2008, 08:05 PM   #116
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great info

these two answers are quite evasive, I mean he should just say they want to pump the price. They don't want people ordering a non-i-drive car so they make CA and MDM which have nothing to do with i-drive part of the package. (M-button as well tho that could have more to do with i-drive since it may need more to control than just one button).

We already have a button for stability control, it would be nothing to have MDM as the middle setting. Also we already have a start button CA can be an option without i-drive on every other 3-series.


thanks for the candid conversation, but as is clear the real aswer is:

We want the price to be as high as possible (ie. technology package at least) so we tied premium sound, CA and MDM to that leading people to spend at a minimum $60K+ for a car with MDM or CA.

I'm sure many people end up with the technology package by default since it's the only way to get CA and MDM.
Just looked on the UK site and they can order CA and M drive is standard without ordering EDC. This is the config that I want. BMWUSA you suck.
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      04-13-2008, 08:45 PM   #117
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Just looked on the UK site and they can order CA and M drive is standard without ordering EDC. This is the config that I want. BMWUSA you suck.
Yeah but the steering wheel is on the wrong side.
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      04-13-2008, 08:48 PM   #118
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BTW, please don't let BMW USA hijack ///M cars again like putting the 6 speed manual transmission in the E60 M5....horrible.
I'm just curious here, why did it matter to you if they put a 6 speed in the M5 when SMG was still available at a lower cost?
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      04-13-2008, 08:49 PM   #119
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I will follow up on the 3rd question to see if he can be more specific. I will try to bring up the 1st and 2nd as well, but I don't expect answers on those really.
"Good luck we're all counting on you"
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      04-13-2008, 09:12 PM   #120
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I'm just curious here, why did it matter to you if they put a 6 speed in the M5 when SMG was still available at a lower cost?
If you think the 6MT vs. DCT threads here are something, it was a holy war over on M5board on 6MT vs. SMG.

The 6MT completely changed the character of the E60 M5 and diluted the brand. Anything that dilutes ///M is bad.

The 6MT M5 was significantly slower and DSC kicked in way too early and couldn't be disabled (it was a hotfix that was only available late last year).

You already know my thoughts on 6MTs when something like DCT or SMG is available.
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      04-13-2008, 09:47 PM   #121
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I bet DCT will be available in the M5/6 with in a year. The transmission can already handle the power as it is right now.
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      04-13-2008, 09:51 PM   #122
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I bet DCT will be available in the M5/6 with in a year. The transmission can already handle the power as it is right now.

What do you want to bet? Name your wager.
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      04-13-2008, 10:01 PM   #123
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I bet DCT will be available in the M5/6 with in a year. The transmission can already handle the power as it is right now.
Probably not. If they offer it then I think it will be more than a year to engineer it for the M5/6. This would put it too close to the next 5/6-series model revision. However, if the DCT does well with the M3 then you will probably start seeing it offered for the whole BMW line eventually.
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      04-13-2008, 10:06 PM   #124
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Probably not. If they offer it then I think it will be more than a year to engineer it for the M5/6. This would put it too close to the next 5/6-series model revision. However, if the DCT does well with the M3 then you will probably start seeing it offered for the whole BMW line eventually.

Ersin, let's see if Skierman will make a bet
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      04-13-2008, 10:07 PM   #125
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You must be a gambler at heart T-bone.
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      04-13-2008, 11:11 PM   #126
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Not willing to bet as I have not pondered the many facets of the issue. However I believe that DCT will very soon spread to non M models and M-DCT will get to other M models quite soon as well.
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      04-14-2008, 07:27 AM   #127
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Just looked on the UK site and they can order CA and M drive is standard without ordering EDC. This is the config that I want. BMWUSA you suck.
this is totally my point. CA could be a stand alone option as it is on every other bmw (and Mini) and as it is on the M3 in the ROW.

So when he's asked why can't it be an option the correct answer is BMWUSA wants to force options so they won't include as a single option.

And the BS about "We're listening" is just that BS since if they were listening they could change it tomorrow. Don't say it can't be done cause that's a lie. No reason why CA can not be a stand alone option.

BMW already does it for the ROW.

IDK if it's something to do with the US dollar (or the 'low' base price in the US) BMW wants to make money so they are charging US for metalic paint (I believe it's no-cost in UK) and won't offer CA without technology package.

The other point is heated seats is a stand alone option, so what's the big deal with CA? I mean if they charge $500 it's going to be sold to some (who don't like/want i-drive technology package).
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      04-14-2008, 08:46 AM   #128
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this is totally my point. CA could be a stand alone option as it is on every other bmw (and Mini) and as it is on the M3 in the ROW.

So when he's asked why can't it be an option the correct answer is BMWUSA wants to force options so they won't include as a single option.

And the BS about "We're listening" is just that BS since if they were listening they could change it tomorrow. Don't say it can't be done cause that's a lie. No reason why CA can not be a stand alone option.

BMW already does it for the ROW.

IDK if it's something to do with the US dollar (or the 'low' base price in the US) BMW wants to make money so they are charging US for metalic paint (I believe it's no-cost in UK) and won't offer CA without technology package.

The other point is heated seats is a stand alone option, so what's the big deal with CA? I mean if they charge $500 it's going to be sold to some (who don't like/want i-drive technology package).
I'm not that upset about CA, I'm bugged by the fact that ROW gets M drive standard without having to get EDC and the tech package.
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      04-14-2008, 09:36 AM   #129
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These are all great questions and I surely appreciate them being asked and answered. My basic question is: Why are there no official reviews on the M-DKG transmission? The are car with M-DKG ont he road right now and still no reviews. I'm wondering why. Thanks!
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      04-14-2008, 01:48 PM   #130
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These are all great questions and I surely appreciate them being asked and answered. My basic question is: Why are there no official reviews on the M-DKG transmission? The are car with M-DKG ont he road right now and still no reviews. I'm wondering why. Thanks!


print media may be a month or two behind, meaning it could be tested but we haven't seen it yet.
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      04-14-2008, 04:34 PM   #131
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Ersin, let's see if Skierman will make a bet
How about a Labatt Blue, my favorite Canadian Beer.

If you're in Ontario, I'll be there for two weeks in August, we can discuss the bet over another beer.
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      04-14-2008, 04:38 PM   #132
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And the BS about "We're listening" is just that BS since if they were listening they could change it tomorrow. Don't say it can't be done cause that's a lie. No reason why CA can not be a stand alone option.
We're listening isn't the same as saying, we'll do anything the customer requests. I'm sure there is a business decision reasoning for packaging the options the way they are. In the US, we're still buying the M3 at the cheapest price in the world.
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