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      04-12-2008, 08:23 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticBlue View Post
8. What is the actual shift time of M-DCT in S6 mode (in milliseconds)?
They don't give them a time, however it's so instantaneous that they had to build some feel into it so it didn't feel like a CVT transmission. "It just goes, it's so fast"
That's probably about the best answer you're gonna get. With two input shafts and two clutches, during a shift, one clutch is engaging before the other one is disengaged. To quote a "shift time" you would have to define what is the beginning and what is the end. In the world of double input shaft and double clutch, that is a grey area and tough to define. By some definitions, it could be said the shift time is zero. If you define it by the time it takes to go from clutch fully engaged to clutch fully engaged, then the number will be smaller than the SMG or any conventional manual, which is great, but that doesn't give the DCT the full credit it deserves for the fact that no matter how small the number is for an SMG, there is some amount of time where there is zero torque being applied. With the DCT that never happens... there is never a point where there is zero torque. So just comparing some definition of shift time in milliseconds, even though the DCT will definitely compare favorably, doesn't give it the full credit it deserves.
So you say there should be no information on the real shift times because that gave the DCT not enough credit?


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      04-12-2008, 08:44 AM   #68
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Thanks for all the effort putting this in. Can't wait for the rest.
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      04-12-2008, 09:46 AM   #69
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great job guys...can't wait to see the video...
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      04-12-2008, 10:06 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
4. Can we please get Comfort Access as a separate option for non ZTP cars? MY2009?
Probably not

5. Any chance MDM will be available as either a new standard feature, or a stand-alone option?
He can't put in the car without I-drive. If he makes I-drive standard then there's a big jump in price and then he's got a whole stack of people who complain they don't want I-drive in the car and they won't buy it. He has 25 or 30% of the people won't buy the car with I-drive so he won't make it standard.
great info

these two answers are quite evasive, I mean he should just say they want to pump the price. They don't want people ordering a non-i-drive car so they make CA and MDM which have nothing to do with i-drive part of the package. (M-button as well tho that could have more to do with i-drive since it may need more to control than just one button).

We already have a button for stability control, it would be nothing to have MDM as the middle setting. Also we already have a start button CA can be an option without i-drive on every other 3-series.


thanks for the candid conversation, but as is clear the real aswer is:

We want the price to be as high as possible (ie. technology package at least) so we tied premium sound, CA and MDM to that leading people to spend at a minimum $60K+ for a car with MDM or CA.

I'm sure many people end up with the technology package by default since it's the only way to get CA and MDM.

Last edited by rai; 04-12-2008 at 10:21 AM.
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      04-12-2008, 10:33 AM   #71
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Priority One color ordering available......

Whoo hoo!

Black Sapphire Metallic here I come..
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      04-12-2008, 10:47 AM   #72
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Update: I loaded all my videos from the meeting to google videos last night, but now about 12 hours later it's showing all 4 of my videos as being only 2 seconds long.

I might have to reload them all.

Any suggestions?
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      04-12-2008, 11:10 AM   #73
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Thanks that was moderately interesting (would have been better to have an M3 engineer answer most questions).

"The E92 seat has at least 6-8 motors in it, making it quite a heavy seat. The front seats alone may add 100lbs to the E92."

Woa. One mod that comes to mind is to lock the seats in your prefered position then remove the motors. I am sure these motors are quite heavy. Anyone else thought the same ?


"BUTT ugly orange reflectors?" I ACTUALLY LIKE the position of these reflectors they add dimension to the 3/4 front.


" Do you know about the issue with the sale of a M3 on Ebay from the dealer in Lincoln, NE? Any comments?
He knows all about it. BMW USA was very involved. Bottom Line, he said customer was having problem getting financing and was trying to get the dealer to drop the price below what was agreed to on Ebay"

that is BS, I am sure that dealer tried to get more money from financing when he could not walk out of the binding auction deal.
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      04-12-2008, 11:17 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticBlue View Post
8. What is the actual shift time of M-DCT in S6 mode (in milliseconds)?
They don't give them a time, however it's so instantaneous that they had to build some feel into it so it didn't feel like a CVT transmission. "It just goes, it's so fast"
That's probably about the best answer you're gonna get. With two input shafts and two clutches, during a shift, one clutch is engaging before the other one is disengaged. To quote a "shift time" you would have to define what is the beginning and what is the end. In the world of double input shaft and double clutch, that is a grey area and tough to define. By some definitions, it could be said the shift time is zero. If you define it by the time it takes to go from clutch fully engaged to clutch fully engaged, then the number will be smaller than the SMG or any conventional manual, which is great, but that doesn't give the DCT the full credit it deserves for the fact that no matter how small the number is for an SMG, there is some amount of time where there is zero torque being applied. With the DCT that never happens... there is never a point where there is zero torque. So just comparing some definition of shift time in milliseconds, even though the DCT will definitely compare favorably, doesn't give it the full credit it deserves.
It might feel as though there is "never a point where there is zero torque", but there must be a very small amount of time that both gear ratios are NOT connected to the engine. If you are beginning to disengage the clutch for one gear ratio while the next gear ratio is being engaged there is only one acceptable option...they cannot be connected to the engine at the same time.

If two gear ratios are connected at the same time (shift overlap) then the clutches must slip which causes unnecessary wear and heat. If both ratios are actually connected (engaged) at the same time then the output shaft (drive shaft) will be locked and cause the drive wheels to lock (like having an automatic trans. car in Park). If the vehicle is moving when the driveshaft locks the tires will chirp (skid) or the weakest power train link will break. Manual transmissions vehicles use a shift interlock to prevent two gear ratios from being selected at the same time. Automatic transmission vehicles have a torque converter that allows slippage.

Bottom line: You must have some time when both gears are not engaged (connected) to the engine. BMW likely designed in some “zero torque time” to prevent M-DCT owners from have early clutch failures. The wet clutch design with plenty of cooling should help also.
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      04-12-2008, 11:23 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I just was reading another thread and I remembered something Larry said last night. He said the car handles better on the 18" wheels than on the 19s. Something to do with a taller sidewall allowing the tire to conform to the road surface better thus producing more grip.

I found this surprising yet encouraging since I'll have 18s on my car.
Interesting. Normally it's the other way around. The bigger wheels give better handling precisely because the have a shorter sidewall -- less flex. Of course, that's not the only reason for bigger wheels. Most people think they look better. Thanks.
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      04-12-2008, 11:29 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwelch View Post
It might feel as though there is "never a point where there is zero torque", but there must be a very small amount of time that both gear ratios are NOT connected to the engine. If you are beginning to disengage the clutch for one gear ratio while the next gear ratio is being engaged there is only one acceptable option...they cannot be connected to the engine at the same time.

If two gear ratios are connected at the same time (shift overlap) then the clutches must slip which causes unnecessary wear and heat. If both ratios are actually connected (engaged) at the same time then the output shaft (drive shaft) will be locked and cause the drive wheels to lock (like having an automatic trans. car in Park). If the vehicle is moving when the driveshaft locks the tires will chirp (skid) or the weakest power train link will break. Manual transmissions vehicles use a shift interlock to prevent two gear ratios from being selected at the same time. Automatic transmission vehicles have a torque converter that allows slippage.

Bottom line: You must have some time when both gears are not engaged (connected) to the engine. BMW likely designed in some “zero torque time” to prevent M-DCT owners from have early clutch failures. The wet clutch design with plenty of cooling should help also.
I suppose theoretically you could have no zero torque time (ZTT). Practically though, you will have ZTT. I doubt you could measure it without sophisticated measuring equipment and certainly could not feel it. And you bet there will be slip. Practically speaking, you always have slip. It's a matter of how much. Even the wheels slip. Maybe that's why the DCT clutch is a wet clutch.

Point here though is that practically speaking, you can't feel, and would have a hard time measuring ZTT. I believe the DCT is that good. Cheers.
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      04-12-2008, 11:44 AM   #77
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I bet turn in is more crisp with the 19s though, and probably helps the steering feel somewhat better connected to the road.
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      04-12-2008, 11:45 AM   #78
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Thanks Skierman, I really appreciate the effort you put into this. And thanks to Mr. Koch for his answers/insight as well as reading this forum.
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      04-12-2008, 11:45 AM   #79
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Thanks for taking the time to compile a list of questions and answers. Very interesting reading.
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      04-12-2008, 11:55 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
Thanks that was moderately interesting (would have been better to have an M3 engineer answer most questions).
I'd probably be pretty tough getting a BMW engineer available to talk to customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
"The E92 seat has at least 6-8 motors in it, making it quite a heavy seat. The front seats alone may add 100lbs to the E92."

Woa. One mod that comes to mind is to lock the seats in your prefered position then remove the motors. I am sure these motors are quite heavy. Anyone else thought the same ?
Seems like it might be easier just to install some aftermarket racing seats than modify the existing seat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
"BUTT ugly orange reflectors?" I ACTUALLY LIKE the position of these reflectors they add dimension to the 3/4 front.
You're the first person that I've seen that actually like the front reflectors. I'm curious if anyone else actually likes them out there who has just never spoken up.
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      04-12-2008, 12:01 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I'd probably be pretty tough getting a BMW engineer available to talk to customers.

Seems like it might be easier just to install some aftermarket racing seats than modify the existing seat.

You're the first person that I've seen that actually like the front reflectors. I'm curious if anyone else actually likes them out there who has just never spoken up.
Every company I have experience with keeps their engineers locked up and away from the customer. So, chances of that happening are zero and none.

If you install after-market seats then you either must deal with the seat upholstery not matching the rest of the interior, or get a custom upholstery job for them. Of course, it's not so much a problem if you have black.

Yes, he is the only person in the whole world who actually likes the reflectors.
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      04-12-2008, 01:12 PM   #82
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these two answers are quite evasive, I mean he should just say they want to pump the price.
That rationale doesn't fully explain it to me. They could easily make both Navigation and EDC only available as part of ZTP also if they really wanted to force more people to get the package. In fact, I would venture to guess that a large percentage of non-ZTP cars will still include EDC. If I am right then this means that they could possibly have upsold many of these buyers to ZTP by not allowing EDC as an ad hoc option. The same applies to Nav, but to a much smaller number of customers probably. But in those few cases though, the upsell would have likely been quite easy since Nav is already over half the cost of ZTP anyway.

I think the main reason that stand-alone CA is not available is that BMW NA thinks that few people without ZTP would want it. Its possible that they even have survey data to back this up. And if no one orders it - then why clutter up the options list? Its similar to how headlight washers are not available standalone. Probably almost no one would order it that way. But in this case I really would order stand alone CA and I suspect there are quite a few of those 25-30% that Larry mentions who don't want iDrive that would actually like to have CA also. Hopefully enough of us complain to get them to change their minds.
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      04-12-2008, 01:53 PM   #83
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That rationale doesn't fully explain it to me. They could easily make both Navigation and EDC only available as part of ZTP also if they really wanted to force more people to get the package. In fact, I would venture to guess that a large percentage of non-ZTP cars will still include EDC. If I am right then this means that they could possibly have upsold many of these buyers to ZTP by not allowing EDC as an ad hoc option. The same applies to Nav, but to a much smaller number of customers probably. But in those few cases though, the upsell would have likely been quite easy since Nav is already over half the cost of ZTP anyway.

I think the main reason that stand-alone CA is not available is that BMW NA thinks that few people without ZTP would want it. Its possible that they even have survey data to back this up. And if no one orders it - then why clutter up the options list? Its similar to how headlight washers are not available standalone. Probably almost no one would order it that way. But in this case I really would order stand alone CA and I suspect there are quite a few of those 25-30% that Larry mentions who don't want iDrive that would actually like to have CA also. Hopefully enough of us complain to get them to change their minds.
good points, but with computers with ordering and manufacturing these days (IMO) it's not a bad thing to have more choices such as Mini where everything is an option but can also be in a money saving package.

I do not see how having CA being an option by itself is any different than having EDC or heated seats be an option. I mean it's one thing. How hard can it be to have one more choice?

As for the MDM that (IMO) is totally in the technology package to get people to buy technology package. There is a button for the stability control that could be off/no or MDM.--------------- unless maybe MDM requires EDC (for example) to function which does not seem to be the case since wouldn't they it have been said that way?

I will say, technology package is a good value meaning if you are willing to say CA + MDM + M-button (together) are worth $1K and EDC is worth $1K that's $2K making i-drive and navi cost just $1250 which is a good deal assuming you don't mind i-drive and nav.

I am not against or for i-drive. I guess it's something I will live with or something I will love but the idea that I HAVE to buy i-drive to get CA just doesn't make any sense. IMO with the key + push-button (two steps) if you don't have CA it just seems that something like CA should not cost a bit to make (since the hardware start button is already there) so IMO the M-car should have CA standard if anything.

I understand if it's an option that's more profit for BMW but it does seem the 'low price' of the base is not realistic for most people so we are seeing $70K M3s more common than anything else.

My point being psychologically if we are now getting Tech package (almost forced option) and most people will get leather + trim upgrade so premium package is going to be very common and the way the base stereo lesser than the L7 in the 335i many will get premuim sound since it's $66K so what's another $1900?
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      04-12-2008, 02:07 PM   #84
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I'd probably be pretty tough getting a BMW engineer available to talk to customers. .

Yeah I know it is the same in any industry. Information gets filtered by marketing. The upper management usually does not understand sh*t when it comes to technical discussions. It is not that they are evasive it is outside their league.

Quote:
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You're the first person that I've seen that actually like the front reflectors. I'm curious if anyone else actually likes them out there who has just never spoken up.
I only like the reflectors on AW and JBK and JRZBK

My preference is MR tough. There won't be many of these around.
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      04-12-2008, 02:38 PM   #85
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good points, but with computers with ordering and manufacturing these days (IMO) it's not a bad thing to have more choices such as Mini where everything is an option but can also be in a money saving package.

I do not see how having CA being an option by itself is any different than having EDC or heated seats be an option. I mean it's one thing. How hard can it be to have one more choice?

As for the MDM that (IMO) is totally in the technology package to get people to buy technology package. There is a button for the stability control that could be off/no or MDM.--------------- unless maybe MDM requires EDC (for example) to function which does not seem to be the case since wouldn't they it have been said that way?

I will say, technology package is a good value meaning if you are willing to say CA + MDM + M-button (together) are worth $1K and EDC is worth $1K that's $2K making i-drive and navi cost just $1250 which is a good deal assuming you don't mind i-drive and nav.

I am not against or for i-drive. I guess it's something I will live with or something I will love but the idea that I HAVE to buy i-drive to get CA just doesn't make any sense. IMO with the key + push-button (two steps) if you don't have CA it just seems that something like CA should not cost a bit to make (since the hardware start button is already there) so IMO the M-car should have CA standard if anything.

I understand if it's an option that's more profit for BMW but it does seem the 'low price' of the base is not realistic for most people so we are seeing $70K M3s more common than anything else.

My point being psychologically if we are now getting Tech package (almost forced option) and most people will get leather + trim upgrade so premium package is going to be very common and the way the base stereo lesser than the L7 in the 335i many will get premuim sound since it's $66K so what's another $1900?
I agree that tech package is almost a forced option. CA and M dynamic mode should be available seperately. dynamic mode should be stock too. whats so hard about having TC setting for off/on/m dynamic mode. Makes no sense to me.
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      04-12-2008, 03:36 PM   #86
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I like the reflectors as well - they don't bother me anymore. They look good on the AW cars especially. I won't be painting mine in the same way that I won't be painting my tail lights. They add color to the car.
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      04-12-2008, 04:07 PM   #87
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Question Laguna Blue

So??? Laguna Blue is going to be a custom color instead of a standard color?
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      04-12-2008, 04:12 PM   #88
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Orange Reflector Club

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Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
You're the first person that I've seen that actually like the front reflectors. I'm curious if anyone else actually likes them out there who has just never spoken up.
I love those reflectors, too! I grew up in Europe and -as a child- used to paint orange and red side reflectors onto car mag photos. I guess we could form an "orange reflector club"...

Thanks for your awesome work skierman64, much appreciated!

Tamas

Last edited by Mini Me; 04-12-2008 at 08:37 PM.
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