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      03-27-2008, 08:22 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I would want to see a bet defined in the following terms.

Shift time = total time from when acceleration starts to drop during the gear change to when acceleration is back at or above the steady state for the next gear.

Put in terms of the real world graph:


The time counted would be from just a hair before the 1.2s mark where acceleration starts to dip until 1.6s where acceleration has returned to the expected value for the next gear. So I would measure that at about 0.42s

You guys pick an over/under number for that metric.

I am fine with that.... I bet the cycle you described will be 0.08 seconds or more. Swamp2 should have no qualms about betting the cycle will be 0.08 or less.

Swamp2, you in?
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      03-27-2008, 11:20 PM   #178
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When we first tried to agree to a bet, you backed away from your claims of near instantaneous shift times quickly.

I don't think we can come to terms.
Come on T, stop with the annoying misrepresentations. I have explained my DISBELIEF in BMWs statement of shifts in "milliseconds" time and time again. I used such numbers occasionally in simulations but not generally. Your lie and pesky nature on this is getting soooo old. Don't forget you tried to sucker bet me with known detailed knowledge on SMG III shift times and how that would compare to DCT.

I should have taken you up on the bet when you keep getting confused between seconds and milliseconds, DCT shifts faster than 0.8 s?

I'm getting dangerously close about the 80 ms number, but not yet. I put 100 ms on the table.

What happened to your massive flip flop right here in this thread on the decelerative spike on the leading edge of the shift? My 2nd proposed bet?
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      03-28-2008, 12:11 AM   #179
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I think in theory it can be .0 seconds but I won't bet. In F1, they are truly seamless meaning that there is just constant acceleration. Maybe they do have both clutches engaged simulataneously. But then again, in F1, they don't give you a 4 year 50,000 mile warrantee so it probably wouldn't make sense to have both clutches engaged simultaneously in our cars.
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      03-28-2008, 02:43 AM   #180
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F1 cars aren't dual clutch, thought I would say that now before any confusion later on.

T-Bone,

When enigma provides a graph on the SMG then I will give you a wager based on what I believe the DCT will look like in comparison and how long the period will be.

If swamp won't, I will.
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      03-28-2008, 02:58 AM   #181
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Can I get a little off topic and it's my opinion why SMG was a badly executed design.

Would everyone admit here that in anything other than S6 mode the M6 will be beaten by quite a few cars which wouldn't stand a chance when in S6 mode. Surely that is a major failings in it's design when only the roughest of settings give the desired results.

Also with the new DCT, only S6 disconnects DSC (not sure of this being right) and in this mode the car has the most surge which will unbalance the chassis in corners when shifting.

Feel free to knock my opinions down but I don't agree with what BMW is doing and has done with their semi-automatics.
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      03-28-2008, 03:44 AM   #182
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The time I took the M3 to the drag strip I got the best time in A5, not S6. Another Footie theory up in smoke. The three runs I made varied by only 0.1s (s6,s6,a5)

Now at the track A5 cannot pick the shift points as well as a human so its not a good option. But in a straight line its ability to upshift at the perfect rpm ever time makes it a very good option.

SMG also has accelerometers for detecting when the car is turning. Under those conditions it adjusts the way it shifts.

You accuse us of bashing a system we are not familiar with, perhaps you should look in the mirror?

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Can I get a little off topic and it's my opinion why SMG was a badly executed design.

Would everyone admit here that in anything other than S6 mode the M6 will be beaten by quite a few cars which wouldn't stand a chance when in S6 mode. Surely that is a major failings in it's design when only the roughest of settings give the desired results.

Also with the new DCT, only S6 disconnects DSC (not sure of this being right) and in this mode the car has the most surge which will unbalance the chassis in corners when shifting.

Feel free to knock my opinions down but I don't agree with what BMW is doing and has done with their semi-automatics.
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      03-28-2008, 07:35 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
The time I took the M3 to the drag strip I got the best time in A5, not S6. Another Footie theory up in smoke. The three runs I made varied by only 0.1s (s6,s6,a5)

Now at the track A5 cannot pick the shift points as well as a human so its not a good option. But in a straight line its ability to upshift at the perfect rpm ever time makes it a very good option.

SMG also has accelerometers for detecting when the car is turning. Under those conditions it adjusts the way it shifts.

You accuse us of bashing a system we are not familiar with, perhaps you should look in the mirror?
Thanks for sharing those points about SMG, especially the fact that it adjusts shift pattern during cornering, that is something I didn't know. My comments were not referring to the automatic part of the transmission but the manual section (S1 ~6). Maybe I should have made myself more clear for you rednecks, sorry that assumption was uncalled for but then so is the way your talk to people or should I say talk down to people.

I was lead to believe that S6 offered the quickest acceleration followed by S5 and so on and so on. If this is wrong then I stand corrected but if I am correct then I again say that only offering the jerkiest of shift patterns as the one to win races against it's rivals is a badly executed design.
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      03-28-2008, 09:09 AM   #184
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If anyone is interested I have similar acceleration trace data to that posted by Enigma..... I have data for the E92 M3 Manual, Golf R32 DSG and M5 SMG (all Euro spec driven by the same driver (me) on the same stretch of road).

I use the Racelogic Performance box with is twice as accurate as the DL1 (10 samples a second Vs 5)
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      03-28-2008, 09:17 AM   #185
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      03-28-2008, 09:38 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wads View Post
If anyone is interested I have similar acceleration trace data to that posted by Enigma..... I have data for the E92 M3 Manual, Golf R32 DSG and M5 SMG (all Euro spec driven by the same driver (me) on the same stretch of road).

I use the Racelogic Performance box with is twice as accurate as the DL1 (10 samples a second Vs 5)
Yes, please!


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      03-28-2008, 09:39 AM   #187
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My head hurts
Looks more like a hangover!


Best regards, south
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      03-28-2008, 09:42 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Right, I calculated about 0.4 kph but you are right, not an enormous effect. Do recall that you have to regain everthing you loose just to get back to "even". This effect will be smaller on a little aerodynamic Elise comapared to other cars. That was a really fast shift as well, 0.25 seconds. I bet you can't shift that fast! Lastly this effect is much larger when shifting at higer speeds.
You're right, most probably can't shift that fast although an 3-4 shift shouldn't take much longer.


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      03-28-2008, 10:47 AM   #189
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Yes, please!


Best regards, south
+1. That would be simply FANTASTIC. Can't wait for your post.
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      03-28-2008, 11:02 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Would everyone admit here that in anything other than S6 mode the M6 will be beaten by quite a few cars which wouldn't stand a chance when in S6 mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
My comments were not referring to the automatic part of the transmission but the manual section (S1 ~6). Maybe I should have made myself more clear for you rednecks, sorry that assumption was uncalled for but then so is the way your talk to people or should I say talk down to people.



On cold days I have used S5 insterad of 6 to reduce the dynamic peaks to adjust for the reduced traction of the rear tires.

Question.
When the actuall DCT results come back and S1-S6 are all faster than a manual car are you going to admit you were wrong all along?

There will be differences in acceleration, they will be small, but they will be non-zero. For those competing we still want every non-zero advantage we can get.
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      03-28-2008, 11:05 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wads View Post
If anyone is interested I have similar acceleration trace data to that posted by Enigma..... I have data for the E92 M3 Manual, Golf R32 DSG and M5 SMG (all Euro spec driven by the same driver (me) on the same stretch of road).

I use the Racelogic Performance box with is twice as accurate as the DL1 (10 samples a second Vs 5)
Would love to see it.

Keep in mind we are talking about the accelerometers here and not the gps part of the units. 5hz is for the gps part of the DL1 while the accel info is 100hz

I found my spare cable last night so I can move it to the BMW for my morning drive.
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      03-28-2008, 11:14 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wads View Post
If anyone is interested I have similar acceleration trace data to that posted by Enigma..... I have data for the E92 M3 Manual, Golf R32 DSG and M5 SMG (all Euro spec driven by the same driver (me) on the same stretch of road).

I use the Racelogic Performance box with is twice as accurate as the DL1 (10 samples a second Vs 5)
Please post 'em. I thought I was over the top when I got my AP-22. But you guys beat me by a wide margin here. We have some hard core gear-heads on this forum.
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      03-28-2008, 11:23 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post


On cold days I have used S5 insterad of 6 to reduce the dynamic peaks to adjust for the reduced traction of the rear tires.

Question.
When the actuall DCT results come back and S1-S6 are all faster than a manual car are you going to admit you were wrong all along?

There will be differences in acceleration, they will be small, but they will be non-zero. For those competing we still want every non-zero advantage we can get.
enigma,

I have never said that manual will be as quick as DCT, for heaven sake I owned a DSG and know that it's quicker, haven't I said as much on countless occasions. You are missing my point as always, not everyone may want the jerk/surge and if BMW only offer the quickest shift and acceleration with this then in my opinion it's a mistake. Surely someone can have an opinion on this site which may conflict with your own.

Clearly you and I will never see eye to eye on most things, possibly it's either an age or culture thing. I don't buy an M3 or any other car to go racing which is clearly top of your list, I buy it to use daily and look for a system and setup which works best in this situation. It the only reason why this time round I decided to go for an M3 as this new model was the first to have desired setup and abilities to match my requirements.

I loved DSG from a technology point of view and found it's automatic modes brilliant but as a manual and primarily using the paddles in town I ended up hating the system and craved the connect that the gear stick give.
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      03-28-2008, 12:05 PM   #194
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Quote:
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enigma,

I have never said that manual will be as quick as DCT, for heaven sake I owned a DSG and know that it's quicker, haven't I said as much on countless occasions. You are missing my point as always, not everyone may want the jerk/surge and if BMW only offer the quickest shift and acceleration with this then in my opinion it's a mistake. Surely someone can have an opinion on this site which may conflict with your own.

...

I loved DSG from a technology point of view and found it's automatic modes brilliant but as a manual and primarily using the paddles in town I ended up hating the system and craved the connect that the gear stick give.
The problem with your opinion is its the same as saying "I think the world is flat". What you want isn't technically possible (Save for a CVT). Its not about preference. You want smooth, we all get that and its fine. Where we differ is you keep saying its possible to both be smooth and as fast as the next gear surge approach. Sorry, but cannot be done unless someone invents a really cool energy storage device to buffer that flywheel energy and slowly dissapate it through the duration of the next gear.

Then there is the irony of this. You think its a mistake to make the DCT not like DSG. However, you disliked DSG so much you bought a manual. Why would you think its a mistake to not make it like something you hate?
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      03-28-2008, 12:08 PM   #195
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Quote:
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... if BMW only offer the quickest shift and acceleration with this then in my opinion it's a mistake.
I think the point is that the jerk/surge is a consequence of engineering it for the quickest shift and acceleration. To engineer out the jerk/surge means that you will not be operating at maximum performance. And this is precisely what the lesser modes are for.

Anyways, that the way I read it. I believe that your interpretation is just different. I don't see it as a culture or age thing.
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      03-28-2008, 01:00 PM   #196
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Quote:
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The problem with your opinion is its the same as saying "I think the world is flat". What you want isn't technically possible (Save for a CVT). Its not about preference. You want smooth, we all get that and its fine. Where we differ is you keep saying its possible to both be smooth and as fast as the next gear surge approach. Sorry, but cannot be done unless someone invents a really cool energy storage device to buffer that flywheel energy and slowly dissapate it through the duration of the next gear.

Then there is the irony of this. You think its a mistake to make the DCT not like DSG. However, you disliked DSG so much you bought a manual. Why would you think its a mistake to not make it like something you hate?
enigma,

What I believe is this surge makes little or no difference to the acceleration times, the only reason for it is to make the acceleration feel quicker, that's not the same things as being faster.

You are still not listening, I like the technology, said it numerous times or you are choosing to ignore this fact. The technology wasn't my problem, the paddles are the problem and this only occurred in town driving where you have junctions and roundabouts (something you lot in the States have very little), in this type of driving I found paddles a pain and if you ask a few I think some would agree with me on that, the difference is that they choose to accept this were I didn't.
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      03-28-2008, 01:04 PM   #197
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footie,

We are saying that if you design for maximum acceleration then you must have the surge. I don't think you can get around it. It's fairly simple laws of physics. And physics is not just a good idea, it's the law!
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      03-28-2008, 01:23 PM   #198
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FYI Theres a whole gearbox feature in the March edition of Evo car mag. Might be relevant to this discussion.

Sorry no scans.
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