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      03-26-2008, 10:50 AM   #23
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Little summary ( i just have little time at the moment, i ll do a bit more this evening( in 5-6hours), if possible:

In the first post we get told, that some people were allowed to sit in the testcars and gain some experiences with the dkg ( they were allways just on the passengerseats, but the testdriver demonstrated whatever they requested).
He also explains the "überdrehmoment": a kind of boost when the car upshifts ( the engine keeps some energy of the higher rpm while the clutch works), this results in a little punch while upshifting.

The amount of this punch depends on the choosen drivingprogram.

Now to the reviews:

all were enthusiastic. The consens is that the dkg is the evolution of the SMG-system. Its feels similar, but better. The bucking is removed but the benefits were improved.
Also the gearing is improved: its smoother and faster compared to the dkg ( also under low rpm).

i ll write a bit more this evening if you ´d like me to.
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      03-26-2008, 10:53 AM   #24
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Thanks Hammer
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      03-26-2008, 10:54 AM   #25
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I didnt manage to get an idea of the full auto mode. Is it going to be as good and as smooth as a torque converter auto? I somewhat doubt it but at the same time I hope that I am wrong.
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      03-26-2008, 10:56 AM   #26
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I'd be interested in whether the engine does a throttle blip on the downchange and if there is any mention of any obvious delay from the driver pulling the manual paddle to the shift happening?
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      03-26-2008, 11:01 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorun View Post
I didnt manage to get an idea of the full auto mode. Is it going to be as good and as smooth as a torque converter auto? I somewhat doubt it but at the same time I hope that I am wrong.
Not even Audis DSG gearboxes are as smooth as lets say Mercedes automatics.
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      03-26-2008, 11:02 AM   #28
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Thanks Hammer for the translation. Any more info you think would be useful to share, I'm sure everyone would be very thankful.
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      03-26-2008, 11:09 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by GT3 Tim View Post
Sheez, its like reading Yoda. lol. Thanks though, I got something out of it...I think.
Bad translation program...
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      03-26-2008, 11:24 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
Not even Audis DSG gearboxes are as smooth as lets say Mercedes automatics.

DSG isn't exactly as smooth as a proper automatic but it isn't that far behind. I reckon that DCT has improved on the 5 years old DSG design and should get even closer in full automatic mode.
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      03-26-2008, 11:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
DSG isn't exactly as smooth as a proper automatic but it isn't that far behind. I reckon that DCT has improved on the 5 years old DSG design and should get even closer in full automatic mode.
Like your sig, I don't agree but I like it
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      03-26-2008, 11:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
DSG isn't exactly as smooth as a proper automatic but it isn't that far behind. I reckon that DCT has improved on the 5 years old DSG design and should get even closer in full automatic mode.
Im not sure its ever possible to get a dsg/dct as smooth as normal automatic. How is the gearbox in the Nissan Skyline in automatic mode?
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      03-26-2008, 11:39 AM   #33
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OK, here's the full translation

First post community-manager:

We wanted to allow you getting an idea of the experience the new M-DCT with Drivelogic provides as early as possible, hence the mods of the MPW in advance had the opportunity of a co-drive on the test track.

Let me add a comment to the mentioned "torque oversteer":
Simplified this means: When performing an upshift, the engine's still revving too high for the next ratio.
In case of a quite fast clutch-in (M-DCT is able to do so), the engine gets decelerated and thus stored energy is set free, this means an additional moment to the drive train, the car makes a feelable and positive jerk forwards. This also means a measurable advance in acceleration (aswell as stirring ones blood up).
On the other hand you can still choose a lower drivelogic setting to enjoy the full comfort, in that case the gearchanges appear accordingly smooth.

Enjoy the reviews.

Regards, CM



Second post, first driving member:

My first encounter with M-DCT:
I've read some information on the M-DCT both here in the MPW and in some car mags, but no meaningful driving test/impression yet.
As a die hard SMG fan - who's currently driving an MT - I was interested in the technical description. The mentioned possibilites/options [of the DKG] were quite impressive to me. But I still couldn't imagine driving an M equipped with a double clutch transmission, a technology known from VW group. That was a mismatch in my opinion. So I was anxious to (co)ride in an E90 M3 with M-DCT, which has been offered to me yesterday.
Just like SMG there are 11 different drive modes: 5 auto and 6 manual modes.
We started the drive in S4 (manual mode). In that mode there are short, noticeable shift interruptions, but no traction interruption during acceleration, just like SMG. Visually spoken it's like the SMG with the only difference that the head only nods rearwards due to the missing traction interruption. Down-shifts caused a big grin on my face due to the (already known from SMG) throttle blip, the V8's trumpeting. In S5 and S6 gear changes are unbelievably fast, though quite noticeable, but it doesn't produce jerks in such a brutal manner the SMG did. Gear changes up to 3rd gear in the said modes produce a short slip of the rear tires. There's also a launch control which works like the SMG's. The BC display shows a checkered flag, the launch is very brute (meant in a good way) with short gear change jerks. We didn't test the auto mode that much. D1 and D2 are like the Audi ad claim, shifting almost imperceptible and fast 'till 7th gear under hard acceleration. Compared to SMG there's also a 'creep' mode, which means that the car moves slowly like a conventional auto, that's surely helpful for parking and traffic situations.
My short vedict is that my apprehension the DKG would be an mushy version of SMG didn't turn out to be true, it's rather a true evolutional step. Very well done!
I'm sure driving M-DCT myself for the first time will be great fun. Only then I'll be able to form an final opinion and tell if the impressions I got from the co-drive are true.


Third post, second driving member:

Yesterday I aswell had the pleasure of having a co-drive in a new M3 with M-DCT. Sure, it would have been better to drive the car myself, but we had to accept the fact that customers aren't allowed to drive test cars. On the other hand the test drivers did every test we wanted them to do, so these reviews are authentic nonetheless and give an impression of the DCT's functionality.

Initially I had problems understanding what a gear change "without torque interruption" means. While riding in the test car I thought "What? That's just like SMG." On inquiry this has been explained to me again. Thus guys, no need to fear that the rev counter moves up to 8k rpm and the tach from odd to 270 kph without noticing any gear changes. And that's a good thing, elsewise some joy of driving would be missing. A shift must be felt, so you know when the next gear's engaged. Gearchanges are fast and precise with DCT. In S6 the DCT enables so called "torque oversteer" during a gear change. Not everybody might like that and it should be taken with a pinch of salt:
Especially during cornering on wet and bumpy roads this can lead to the rear wheels losing grip. In combination with the fact that S6 is only available with DSC disengaged this might result in an unintentional trip to the botany.

I don't know if that will be the same for the series version since the test cars' software version might not be the same. Anyway I'd like to mention that S6 only can be recommended to people who know what they're doing. All the other drivelogic modes work perfectly and provide an absolutely harmonious driving experience in combination with DSC.Compared to SMG there's no head nod forwards, only the jerk of the car and thus a head nod backwards.

Furthermore there are some additional functions that have been improved over SMG. To mention are:

1. Auto parking lock
DKG now allows to turn off the car no matter in which mode it is. An automatic parking lock is activated as soon as the key is ejected. Thinking of "engaging first gear when turning off" or "starts only when in Neutral" is a thing of the past.

2. "Creep mode"
While parking and when in heavy traffic the new DKG supports you more than ever. When the car has come to a complete stop you just have to carefully touch the gas pedal and the car starts moving slowly. This works both forwards and backwards and is thus also good for parking.

3. "Hill start modus"
When one has to start on a hill DCT (unlike SMG) is also helpful. With SMG you had to engage the emergency brake. With DCT the brake stays engaged for 3 or 4 seconds after you've released it, which leaves enough time to engage the gas pedal. Only then the brakes are releasing and the car starts moving forwards without rolling back. If you need longer than 4 seconds the car rolls back.

4. Auto mode
A big improvement. DCT changes gears reliable and guesses the right gear better than the SMG did in auto mode. Whereas I never would use the auto mode of SMG because it used to change gears randomly the DCT's auto mode is something I could like. This may be helpful for boring drives on a speed limited section of the Autobahn.

5. Drivelogic modes
On the SMG I'd have prefered the modes S2 or S3 whereas with DCT I'd rather tend to chose S4 or S5. The gear change jerks occuring on the rear axle the SMG used to have are also a thing of the past with DCT. Gear changes are forceful and don't give you the feeling that the rear axle is ripped out of its mountings.

6. Clutch wear
The fact that M-DCT uses two oil-cooled wet clutches could have an good impact on clutch wear. Sure, in case of an change you have to replace two clutches, but this should also mean they're double as durable. Even sport starts with the launch control aren't that bad for the clutch like they would be to a conventional dry clutch. Anyway it should be mentioned that a launch control does not only affect the clutch, but also other drive train parts like drive shaft, rear axle aswell as tires. So it still should be taken with care.


Verdict:
In my opinion the M-DKG is nothing entirely new, but a better SMG. Sure, the whole transmission concept is new and a different technology, but to an BMW driver it's a better SMG and continues where SMG's development has stopped. In any case, if I buy an new M it will be equipped with DCT.

Who likes SMG will love DCT!


Fourth post, third and last driving member:

Initially I was very sceptical towards DCT since I'm a die hard SMG II (M3CSL) fan. I've (test)driven a double clutch transmission twice before, both were Audis: Nice, but disappointing under sport aspects. The offer to experience (even though only as co-driver) was very enticing.

This being said, who likes SMG will also love the new M-DKG.

I'd order DCT for sure. Why?
1. Just like SMG there are 11 different modes, 5 auto and 6 manual modes. Much to play around with.

2. The car's still alive: In the sporty driving modes ther are still shifting jerks occuring. Not that brute no more, but this also mens less wear. The lower modes offer in-line acceleration, the higher ones offer incredible fast and precise gear changes. Makes a lot of fun.

3. Auto mode has been greatly improved and feels more like a real AT [than the SMG did]. This might be handy occasionally.

4. The 'creep' mode for parking and traffic situations is outstanding.

5. The paddles offer a nice touch, feel like real metal. Hope it's the same in the series production.

6. It's just perfectly calibrated to the other driving systems - this can be said even as co-driver.

BMW could have called it SMG IV aswell. It's to me rather an evolutionary step over the old SMG technology, which was quite addictice, but based on latest technology.

I'm looking forward to an extensive test drive on my favourite roads. Will see what impressions I'm able to share then.





Best regards, south
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Last edited by southlight; 03-26-2008 at 02:26 PM.
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      03-26-2008, 11:48 AM   #34
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South,
Thanks so much for the easier reading translation.
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      03-26-2008, 11:48 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
DSG isn't exactly as smooth as a proper automatic but it isn't that far behind. I reckon that DCT has improved on the 5 years old DSG design and should get even closer in full automatic mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
Im not sure its ever possible to get a dsg/dct as smooth as normal automatic. How is the gearbox in the Nissan Skyline in automatic mode?

Looks like M-DCT isn't going to give an extra 20hp in performance and solve world hunger.

It is going to be an awesome, reliable, smooth gearbox, clearly better than SMG3.....

But Swamp2 is not going to like there is a perceptable interruption in acceleration. But he should be happy of the neck snapping effect of a S6 upshift.....

The M3 is going to chirp gears all the way from the 3rd gear to 4th gear upshift.
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      03-26-2008, 11:51 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
Not even Audis DSG gearboxes are as smooth as lets say Mercedes automatics.
Really?! I thought they trump the autos in all respects
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      03-26-2008, 11:51 AM   #37
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^ Thanks south! I am looking forward to a more detailed review that discusses the "stored energy" or "boost" effect that DKG apparently has as well as the different modes.

Cheers,

Jason
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      03-26-2008, 12:33 PM   #38
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I am less impressed by this review, especially the jerk during upshifts. The whole reason of dual clutch is to be seamless in the changes, not noticeable and jerky like they were with SMG. Unless my understand of what the guy that wrote this is different I doubt I will like this that much.

I would also like to see performance figures for each of the different modes (Auto and Manual) to see if they effect the acceleration. If so then in my opinion BMW have f--ked things up BIG TIME.
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      03-26-2008, 12:34 PM   #39
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Thanks for the translation and the review! I cant wait now!
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      03-26-2008, 12:40 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I am less impressed by this review, especially the jerk during upshifts. The whole reason of dual clutch is to be seamless in the changes, not noticeable and jerky like they were with SMG. Unless my understand of what the guy that wrote this is different I doubt I will like this that much.

I would also like to see performance figures for each of the different modes (Auto and Manual) to see if they effect the acceleration. If so then in my opinion BMW have f--ked things up BIG TIME.
Dont be so 6MT. If I understand the reviews correctly the faster shift settings bring about a more noticeable push in the back rather than the head nod meaning no interruption of motion but rather a notable change (increase) in the force propelling you forward.
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      03-26-2008, 12:43 PM   #41
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Very much appreciated south
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      03-26-2008, 12:47 PM   #42
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I ordered my M3 today. I am still on the fence about the transmission. I ordered the 6MT but thinking of changing it to DCT.

The problem I have and most DCT buyers is they will have to order before the test drive. So I am very interested to read as much as I can in the next week or so while I can still make a change to my final order.

I especially want to find out more about the LC and if the DCT is any quicker (which seems likely but not certain).
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      03-26-2008, 01:02 PM   #43
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First, a big thanks to Just Me for the breaking news on a very hot topic. Thanks as well for the initial translations and the much improved work by South!

I am very pleased and excited. If I could offer my interpretation of a part of the translation I would say folks agree that M-DCT is a very strong evolutionary step past SMG, maybe not revolutionary but that is fine becuase I think SMG is pretty darn good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT3 Tim View Post
Sheez, its like reading Yoda. lol. Thanks though, I got something out of it...I think.
You read my mind on that one, Yoda, ha.

--------

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Looks like M-DCT isn't going to give an extra 20hp in performance and solve world hunger.

It is going to be an awesome, reliable, smooth gearbox, clearly better than SMG3.....

But Swamp2 is not going to like there is a perceptable interruption in acceleration. But he should be happy of the neck snapping effect of a S6 upshift.....

The M3 is going to chirp gears all the way from the 3rd gear to 4th gear upshift.
DCT WILL be worth about 20 hp and 20 ft lb (equivalently). The larger gear ratios AND shorter shift times will do this, period. If you do not disagree that the car will be measureably faster how can you disagree that there is not a significant and equivalent hp/tq gain? You've got this one wrong.

As far as the perception of gear changes it sounds like the system offers a full range of performance, barely noticeable changes in some modes, and noticeable not not nearly as noticeable as SMG in other modes. This does not mean much as all in terms of the performance advantages. All it really means is that I was a bit wrong about the particular design direction they took and whether or not super fast could be mixed with super smooth. That being said I always agreed with enigma that there is a certain amount of engine, flywheel and drivetrain inertia and that has to go somewhere.

------

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I am less impressed by this review, especially the jerk during upshifts. The whole reason of dual clutch is to be seamless in the changes, not noticeable and jerky like they were with SMG. Unless my understand of what the guy that wrote this is different I doubt I will like this that much.

I would also like to see performance figures for each of the different modes (Auto and Manual) to see if they effect the acceleration. If so then in my opinion BMW have f--ked things up BIG TIME.
Hello, Debbie Downer. Wake up footie. Everyone loved the tranny. You can't really honestly believe that "BMW have f--ked things up BIG TIME"... Or can you? Did you hear how the one magazine tester thought the GT-R DC system made the Scuderia feel slow and anitquated? That is UNREAL praise. M-DCT will be the same.

It is smoother than SMG as you get less jerk. You need to really think about the math and curves here before you drive and before you pontificate. SMG and MT exhibit a larger jerk or derivative of acceleration becuase they both decelerate and then accelerate during a very short interval. Hence the slam/jerk. With DCT you still get the excitement and perception of the speed through some jerk but less because the shift is so fast and the entire dip in velocity and acceleration is eliminated.

Consistent with the goal of having a very tuneable car it seems BMW wins here with the tranny by offering both very smooth modes and ones with a smaller but exciting jerk.
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      03-26-2008, 01:12 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I am less impressed by this review, especially the jerk during upshifts. The whole reason of dual clutch is to be seamless in the changes, not noticeable and jerky like they were with SMG. Unless my understand of what the guy that wrote this is different I doubt I will like this that much.

I would also like to see performance figures for each of the different modes (Auto and Manual) to see if they effect the acceleration. If so then in my opinion BMW have f--ked things up BIG TIME.
What utter, utter, nonsense. Go away quickly, and close the door behind you.
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