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      03-26-2008, 11:43 AM   #1145
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You, sir, are wrong. Dead wrong.

Go spec up a $70k 550i, and then check the ED invoice on the car. I guarantee you that it will be very close to $60. And yes, BMW does indeed sell cars within less than $1k of invoice.

The profit per car on an M3 is likely to be even higher than a 550i. BMW would lose no money if they sold him a car at $60k. In fact, I'll bet true cost of an M3 is much less than $60k. After all we know for a fact that true cost of a 335i is much less than $34k - because that is ED invoice on a 335i. No way in firey hell an M3 costs them a whopping $26k+ more to produce than a 335i. In fact, an M3 may well have $26 of profit in it. I would not doubt that at all.



Yep - and comparing prices across regions is a process that is frought with fallacy. But its true, for as much BMW makes on each M3 sale in the US, they will make a whole sh*t-load more off the same sale on the other side of the pond.

Sorry to burst your bubbles there buddy, but bmw's donít have 10 grand worth of mark up on them from invoice to msrp. Iím pretty sure that selling him that m3 for 60k probably either breaks them even (depending on invoice price and whether bmw is giving any factory kick backs on the car) or their losing money. Thereís a reason dealers have to sell a high volume of vehicles in order to make profit because thereís usually only a small amount of profit on every car sold. Don't forget you got to offset the money you lose sometimes on cars (ad cars, etc. etc.) I work for a car dealership and I have people tell me all the time that we have 10 grand worth of mark up on our cars... I usually laugh at them because if we did have that much mark up then we would only need to sell 20 cars a month as a dealership to make a large margin of profit Trust me its not like that though, if you don't believe me, join any auto group and see for yourself.

As far as Dooma's situation, the dealer needs to accept the fact that they Fu**ed up and sell him the car for 60,000. Every dealer makes mistakes and they all need to accept the consequences of their mistakes.

Good luck Dooma
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      03-26-2008, 11:43 AM   #1146
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I really do hope BMW NA steps in here and rectifies this situation. I can't stand these slick dealers.
And I just want to give my full support to Dooma, you WILL get your car!
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      03-26-2008, 11:46 AM   #1147
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Anthony,

You seem to be missing a number of key points here. First, a retailer is not ENTITLED to anything, including profit. Whether they make a profit on every item they sell is entirely up to them. As someone pointed out already, some retailers use loss leaders to attract business, so using the argument that Ken shouldn't get the car he bought because the dealer doesn't make a profit is ridiculous.

Second, by your own admission, profit margins at car dealerships are down considerably in the past 10 years. I ask you - what does that tell you about the state of affairs at car dealerships 10+ years ago? To me it SCREAMS: "Hey, we used to be making small fortunes at the expense of the customers". Now that the internet has grown into what it is, the customer finally has the means to PROTECT themselves against such things. Can you honestly sit there and tell me that you yourself, when looking to buy an item that is undoubtedly the second or third most expensive item you will ever buy in your lifetime, wouldn't do everything in your power to ensure you got the most beneficial price for YOU? If you answer anything but "Yes, you're right" to that one, then you're lying. So no, I don't feel bad for the poor car dealership and I certainly don't buy the argument that the consumer is to blame for the whole auto sales unpleasantness. I will grant you one concession, however. That being the fact that, like everything else in this world, there are a wide range of people involved on BOTH sides and, yes, some consumers ARE unreasonable, irrational and rude. My problem is, I'm not one of them, yet almost every car deal I've ever negotiated I've treated the sales staff with nothing but respect and dignity, but have gotten nothing but slimey, underhanded, deceitful treatment in return. If I could walk into a dealership and say, "I'll pay you the current Edmunds TMV for the car, let's sign the papers and I'll drive it home today" I'd be happy as hell! I've tried that and what I got in return was a stonewall and a slew of excuses about why that price was absurd, blah blah blah. Ok, I could ramble on all day about that, but I'll stop....

Third, this sale was NOT a retail transaction at WalMart, it was an AUCTION. Perhaps you've never been to an auction before, but it's a pretty simple concept - I put an item up for sale with a starting price. People then begin bidding, building up from that price. When bidding stops and time runs out, the highest bidder pays whatever he bid. The ONLY caveat is if I decide BEFORE the auction that there's an absolute minimum I'm willing to sell for. Well, the dealer did not do that. They gambled on a bidding war happening and lost. They were SO CONFIDENT in the appeal of the M3 that they left out the reserve and started bidding below MSRP to attract attention. That's entirely on them. Game over.

Finally, I find it comical that you bring up the depreciation of cars as a way of justifying your point. To me, the rapid and severe depreciation of (most) cars only weakens your argument. Again, if YOU were buying an item for tens of thousands of dollars that, in a few short years, will be worth less than half what you paid for it, wouldn't you want to minimize that loss, too? And comparing to a Realtor and buying a house is just as laughable. Any buyer's agent worth his salt is going to tell you exactly what the house you're looking at is truly worth and the seller's agent knows the same thing. So what's the net result? Everyone plays the offer/counter-offer game in a professional manner until a compromise is reached and everyone is happy. There's no manipulation of the numbers, no "I'll check with my manager" games, no "I'll sell it to you for the price you want, but then I can't give you what you want on the trade-in", no "4-square" games, no financing games to get you into a lower, but more costly monthly payment, etc. Plus, at the end of the day, most buyers are willing to give a little more to the profit of the seller because real estate almost always appreciates in value over time.

Anyway, sorry to everyone for the long read, if you've even made it this far. I just felt I had to straighten Anthony's tie on a few points, especially after spending an eternity the last few days reading this entire thread

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      03-26-2008, 11:47 AM   #1148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickypaws View Post
It's really great to hear that Ken may get his M3. I started following this a few days ago when it first started.

But when I look at the dealer's photos I see the engine compartment has a lot of sloppy stuff going on. When I bought my 330i new in 2002 the engine was super clean/brand new.

With Husker's pics I see what looks like some sort of fluid spills (circled in red) And there is some white stuff on the paint (maybe salt from the road?) inside the hood.

You would think that a showroom floor vehicle would be spotless. Am I imaging this? Am I crazy? Yes, I realize there's the factory warranty but why isn't it spotless?
Interesting find I wonder if thats just water or dirt or a leak from somewhere?
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      03-26-2008, 11:49 AM   #1149
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After following this thread closely for the last three days I decided to join in order to express my support for Ken. While I recognize that there are good and bad dealers out there, I have little patience or support for most dealers and salesmen. When I bought my MINI Cooper a couple years ago I spent a ton of time shopping around at various car dealerships of several different brands. The MINI dealer where I ended up purchasing was one of the few that I didn't feel was trying to screw me (however, I wasn't very impressed with the BMW side of that same dealership).

Unfortunately many car dealerships are still stuck in their old ways and do not recognize the demand among consumers for a new business model in the sale of cars, nor do they recognize the power of word of mouth, especially in the internet age. The overwhelming outpouring of support from various car enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts alike has been amazing to see.

In today's age of internet business, you either get it or you get left behind. Those businesses that don't will suffer and even die if they don't adapt to changes in consumer demand or fail to recognize the power of the internet. Somebody here mentioned the recording industry and record stores earlier and I think that's a great example. Another is the struggles of American car manufacturers. They became too large and out of touch with consumers and now they're being killed by other companies that actually do "get it."

It's good to see all the support for Ken and hopefully the pressure placed on the Husker Auto Group will continue until they make it right. If they do, they may have a chance at salvaging their reputation, but if not, they may be in for some tough times. All of us "bloggers" who "have too much time on our hands" will make sure of that.

(P.S. I did a little write-up on my blog offering my perspective and to help get the word out to the 5 people that read it, http://dcmotoring.blogspot.com/2008/...internets.html)
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      03-26-2008, 11:53 AM   #1150
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Hey Domma, F*ck that Stealership, I wouldnt do anything they ask to "repair thier image". I mean their image is good as gone anyway, I wouldn't do anything till I got the M3 keys in hand.

Dont concur and sue the living hell out of them.
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      03-26-2008, 11:58 AM   #1151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addy85 View Post
Sorry to burst your bubbles there buddy, but bmw's don’t have 10 grand worth of mark up on them from invoice to msrp. I’m pretty sure that selling him that m3 for 60k probably either breaks them even (depending on invoice price and whether bmw is giving any factory kick backs on the car) or their losing money.
Sorry to burst your bubbles there buddy, but you can't read.

First, I know all about Invoice and MSRP on this particular car since I was the one who posted it way back around post 80 of this thread. And I have said a couple times since that Husker would indeed be taking a hit if they sold this car at the $60k price.

But we are not talking about Husker in this sub-discussion. We are talking about BMWNA, and what they could do to fix this situation. An M3 at $60k will not be a loss for BMWNA or BMW AG, even with the ED trip thrown in. This you can bet on.
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      03-26-2008, 12:00 PM   #1152
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here is something you could do

Quote:
Originally Posted by corsa View Post
This is definitely becoming one of the most viral stories of the year, after reading through the (at the time) 40 pages of the thread, it was also blogged about over at www.motortopia.com.

I live in Lincoln, and I do not have any first-hand experience with the current incarnation of Husker Auto Group.

However, its prior incarnations, when it was "Park Place" and before that "Misle", had horrible reputations around here. It seems almost everyone you talk to in the area had horror stories about Misle and Park Place. Definite shady dealings going on in those days.

Supposedly, when they moved to their new (current) location and became Husker Auto Group, they cleaned up their act. But with this current situation, I'm not so sure.

The interesting thing, I stopped by their showroom on Saturday, before I had heard about this, to check out the new 1-series in their showroom, and I saw this very M3 sedan on the showroom floor.

I hope everything works out okay for dooma350!
If it doesn't turn out the way it is supposed to, could you sneak in a sign onto the M3 that reads "Give Ken his M3 for 60k!"
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      03-26-2008, 12:00 PM   #1153
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I agree with Darkblade. With these pictures of the engine compartment, and evidence of shill bidding on other auctions, and the dealership digging their heels in when they know they are wrong, I think I would be reluctant to take possession of this particular car. I think he might be better off just suing for the price difference between this one and another one at this point.

Last edited by freediverdude; 03-26-2008 at 12:02 PM. Reason: two other posts in between during that 1 min, hehe
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      03-26-2008, 12:11 PM   #1154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laszlo View Post
This wouldn't cost BMWNA a thing. It's the right thing to do. It's good business. Period.
I agree, but either way it just seems to me that even if BMW NA were to take a loss by giving Ken an M3 for 60k... it would be a drop in the hat compared to all the negative publicity they are receiving. Companies frequently resolve issues by taking a loss rather than dragging their name through the mud. After all, most people who hear this story will remember "BMW dealership", not Fil or Ryan or whoever from Husker/Lincoln BMW in Nebraska.

To OP: Hope everything works out, you have a lot of support behind you and hopefully all the stress will be over soon.


much for taking on the stealership!
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      03-26-2008, 12:19 PM   #1155
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Quote:
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I agree, but either way it just seems to me that even if BMW NA were to take a loss by giving Ken an M3 for 60k... it would be a drop in the hat compared to all the negative publicity they are receiving. Companies frequently resolve issues by taking a loss rather than dragging their name through the mud. After all, most people who hear this story will remember "BMW dealership", not Fil or Ryan or whoever from Husker/Lincoln BMW in Nebraska.

To OP: Hope everything works out, you have a lot of support behind you and hopefully all the stress will be over soon.


much for taking on the stealership!
Just my 2 cents on this "BMW NA should..."

BMW is bigger than this issue. This is a dealership issue only. The last thing this dealership wants is BMW getting involved because if they do, you can bet the dealership will find itself in BMW's dog house. And let me tell you something, most car manufacturers do not like dealerships either because they are the ones get the headaches when dealerships mistreat their customers.

We still don't know the full story as to why this dealership would put this car up for auction. But one thing is for sure, the longer the dealership stalls, the worse it will get for them. All that gel they put in their hair must have crept into their brains and messed up their ability to think rationally.
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      03-26-2008, 12:37 PM   #1156
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Sorry to burst your bubbles there buddy, but you can't read.

First, I know all about Invoice and MSRP on this particular car since I was the one who posted it way back around post 80 of this thread. And I have said a couple times since that Husker would indeed be taking a hit if they sold this car at the $60k price.

But we are not talking about Husker in this sub-discussion. We are talking about BMWNA, and what they could do to fix this situation. An M3 at $60k will not be a loss for BMWNA or BMW AG, even with the ED trip thrown in. This you can bet on.
Did not realize you were talking about my BMWNA my statements have been retracted.
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      03-26-2008, 12:40 PM   #1157
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Originally Posted by freediverdude View Post
I agree with Darkblade. With these pictures of the engine compartment, and evidence of shill bidding on other auctions, and the dealership digging their heels in when they know they are wrong, I think I would be reluctant to take possession of this particular car. I think he might be better off just suing for the price difference between this one and another one at this point.
Seriously, after all these bad omens I wouldn't go NEAR the place OR that car.
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      03-26-2008, 12:42 PM   #1158
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> This wouldn't cost BMWNA a thing. It's the right thing to do. It's good
> business. Period.

I agree in principle. But the reality will turn-out different. If BMWNA were to
publicly step into this mess ...

- They'd set a precedent that other customers would expect/demand.
Whatever they do for one, they gotta be prepared to do for all.

- They'd set a precdent that other dealers would demand ... as in: My bad,
you (BMWNA) fix it.

Dunno if the BMW franchise agreements include a morals clause; I'd be
stunned if it doesn't ... but this matter does not rise to that level. The only
case I am aware of where a mfgr/distr exercised the morals clause to yank
their medallion and force the sale of dealership ... involved an owner that got
caught in a, "Hi, I'm Chris Hansen with DateLine NBC" moment. GM ditched
him in a single heartbeat.
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      03-26-2008, 12:45 PM   #1159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple-Net-Automotive View Post
My point here is simple, let's stop looking at car dealers as these big bad liars and try to resolve the issues at hand with some understanding and compassion.
Perhaps this will happen when car dealers stop portraying themselves as such.

Ken...hang in there man, you have done nothing wrong. This dealer has brought all these problems on themselves with their slimy code of ethics. Sit back and enjoy the fact that you've created an epic story which has resulted in global support for you from other car enthusiasts.

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      03-26-2008, 12:48 PM   #1160
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I'm not a member here, don't even own a BMW... yet. But wanted to show my support for a fellow car enthusiast. So I went to bmwusa.com and sent the following via their Contact Us form (http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/ContactUs).

Quote:
I just finished reading through this article, and the adjoining forum thread.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/26/n...om-bmw-dealer/

I want you to know, that I am a potential customer of an M5. And I am not liking what I see here. If BMWNA does not do something drastic and very public to right this wrong, I will be considering an RS6 rather than the M5.

Hope to see something soon.
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      03-26-2008, 12:52 PM   #1161
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Originally Posted by MikeDougherty View Post
I'm not a member here, don't even own a BMW... yet. But wanted to show my support for a fellow car enthusiast. So I went to bmwusa.com and sent the following via their Contact Us form (http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/ContactUs).
I emailed them too, told them if they didn't step up I'm cancelling my 135i. Perhaps emails like that will get their attention...perhaps not.
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      03-26-2008, 12:53 PM   #1162
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I can't believe that this doucebag of a dealership wants to keep dragging this out. If they want people to stop calling or emailing them then they need to suck it up and give in and move on.
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      03-26-2008, 12:56 PM   #1163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple-Net-Automotive View Post
This has nothing to do with BMW NA. The dealer is 100% responsible.
Okay dude, you need to get this thru you head. you seem to be the only here thats on the side of the dealer and not on the side of the consumer. That being said and noticing that you just joined I have to say that your from the dealer and your just trying to change all of our minds. This topic has been beaten to death if he had put in a bid of 80k and backed out they would be on him like white on rice so just because the tables have turned it doesn't mean that the dealer should hold up there end of the deal.

So why don't you just pack your bags and get off this site because your attitude just doesn't belong or fit in here.

Get lost!!! :finger:
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      03-26-2008, 12:57 PM   #1164
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Companies make mistakes all the time. Usually they just chalk it up to learning a lesson so they don't make the same mistake twice.

What I fail to understand is why anyone would suggest that this dealer should have a pass just because they made a mistake? Especially since we are only talking about a few thousand dollars. They have lost 50 times that in good will at this point. So shortsighted.
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      03-26-2008, 12:59 PM   #1165
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I can't believe that this doucebag of a dealership wants to keep dragging this out. If they want people to stop calling or emailing them then they need to suck it up and give in and move on.
Seriously. It's as if they are clueless about how to resolve this issue in a way that could repair their image some. They've definitely made things worse for them. If they had an ounce of intelligence they would've given Ken the car for $60k WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED and simply treated it as a normal sale.

Hard to believe their parent company is as large as they are...they seem to be completely inexperienced at the PR side of things.
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      03-26-2008, 01:02 PM   #1166
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I bet if we start a picket line in front of the dealer for a week they will get the real scope of the issue, when they don't sell $50k or $60k cars for a week, im sure it will hurt them even more then the 3 or 4k they are loosing out on this deal.
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