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      03-23-2008, 07:47 PM   #265
dooma350
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Originally Posted by lvwirelessguy View Post
Since when are people in the car business religious?

Maybe only when it comes to money

We can all learn from Fil.

BTW, so many people are interested in this story, so I thought they might be interested in this as well.
Its a great read on the inner workings of a dealership.
Confessions of a Car Salesman
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/page001.html
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      03-23-2008, 07:48 PM   #266
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Best of luck to dooma350!! As many others have said, it's completely within your rights to purchase the automobile at the auction ending price.
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      03-23-2008, 07:53 PM   #267
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ebay has stuff all over their site about how buyer and seller are "entering into a legally binding agreement". I'm sure if you went to their site and signed up as a seller (you don't have to actually sell anything) you'll see wording like how selling on this site constitutes your agreement to their terms and conditions. They've got legalese all over the place, you know there have been attorneys at work to make sure that deals made on ebay are legally binding.

As far as the dealer going to dooma to recover their listing cost ya gotta be kidding! Even if it was $1000 and worthwhile to attempt to recover it, NO WAY is a buyer liable for a seller's listing fees if that buyer is absolutely willing to buy the item at the price of the winning bid!!!! If a seller makes a mistake listing an item and has to take the listing down and relist, how is that the buyer's financial responsibility? Or if someone wins an auction, is willing to send payment, and the seller reneges, under what conceivable legal theory would the buyer be responsible for ANY of the listing fees? C'mon, I'm tolerant but that's absurd!

Mooseman, please educate yourself-go to www.ebay.com and READ THE MATERIAL plainly posted all over the site about legal obligations, terms & conditions of listing there, etc, etc. The fact that it is a legally binding contract is a given. The real question boils down to "if it is a LEGITIMATE MISTAKE, does the seller have to perform?" And (I'm not an attorney) my LAY opinion is that the burden of proof is on the seller to prove that it was a mistake.

At a minimum the dealership is open to the clearly-stated consequences on ebay of not honoring a deal. That one is a no-brainer.
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      03-23-2008, 07:54 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyBeemer View Post
So now you have moved onto what the legal obligations are? I thought you were the one saying that the reason not to go after the dealership was because it was wrong to expect them to take a loss on this deal (recall your original post)...not because contract law was on their side.

The lawyers on the board have given their opinion about that, I'll go with their opinions on the law. Debating the ethics was kinda interesting though.
Apparently I misunderstood what you were asking. I thought you were asking about the legal nature, not the moral question of whether it is ok to screw someone by charging them far greater than market value.

But when the company I worked for used to contract with the State we often times cut previously held contracts by 2/3 when we bid on them. So, do I think it is morally wrong to mislead someone into paying more than market value? Yes, yes I do.
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      03-23-2008, 07:56 PM   #269
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Would just like to add my support dooma350. I see nothing wrong with pursuing this. Good luck.

What is wrong though, BMW and Audi US pricing. My 1.8TFSI A5 cost more than 60K USD converted from GBP.

Another Autoblog reader.
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      03-23-2008, 07:58 PM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvwirelessguy View Post
Since when are people in the car business religious?

Maybe only when it comes to money
He's probably praying that this will all go away.

I found pictures of Fil and Michael.

Fil:


Michael:
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      03-23-2008, 07:59 PM   #271
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WOW this is fucking stupid, i mean big Deal the Dealer made a mistake, let it go and get a different Car,

why go threw all this bullshit? just cough up another fucking 6 grand and get a different one.

im going to side on the dealerships side, because a mistake is a mistake and thats that end of story


no ED you dont understand i was away in dallas and they hired a nudest to spam my forum and by the time i got back it was to late

i was always nice to those guys and i just kindly asked them to leave i said, it's just not working out we have to go our differnet ways
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      03-23-2008, 07:59 PM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
But when the company I worked for used to contract with the State we often times cut previously held contracts by 2/3 when we bid on them. So, do I think it is morally wrong to mislead someone into paying more than market value? Yes, yes I do.
I feel like I just read the first and last sentence of a paragraph.

one time i worked at a factory. and that's why i don't chew on pennies anymore
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      03-23-2008, 08:00 PM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Sure, no doubt that is often the case. But I'm fairly certain that requirements for binding don't include ones over the internet with no good faith exchanges. I think you'll find that even if the dealer was being purposely sleazy, there is little legal recourse.

And I think you misunderstood my post regarding spouses. One spouse can break a contract that the other signed regarding contracting. So, you might with full knowledge hire someone to put in windows in your house, but your wife could nullify the contract even though she isn't a signatory, and that would be JUST LIKE HER, ALWAYS MEDDLING! But it was an example as proof of laws looking to protect those involved or even affected by the contract.

Our argument was regarding the "moral basis" of laws. And those are there to protect both buyer and seller.
I hear what you are saying, did not misunderstand your spouse comment, and will add a few points:

**This is a merchant contract case (UCC), not a domestic dispute between spouses, so please throw that example away...that's all i was saying

**Lastly, there are invitations/advertisements(news paper ad's), and then there are offers by merchants that can be countered offered and negotiated upon(binding upon acceptance). This was an offer by a merchant, not an advertisement. I think the main point, was the BUY it Now feature, which exemplifies that this was indeed an offer that was in turn, accepted by the buyer. Value has not been exchanged of course, which may be the next hurdle to get past.
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      03-23-2008, 08:01 PM   #274
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Emailed to local radio station....

My father-in-law is in news at a local Lincoln, NE radio station. I've emailed him this link in hopes that he may pick up the story and run with it.
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      03-23-2008, 08:02 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyBeemer View Post
I feel like I just read the first and last sentence of a paragraph.

one time i worked at a factory. and that's why i don't chew on pennies anymore
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      03-23-2008, 08:04 PM   #276
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it's NOT a legally binding agreement or contract between buyer-seller, each has a contract with ebay, and they say they can't enforce it...
the complexities are confounding: across state lines, without signatures, without actually knowing who each party is...
they can not mandate one, nor enforce one...they are not a court...

from ebay
3. eBay is not an Auctioneer.

3.1 Online Auctions. Although we are commonly referred to as an online auction web site, it is important to realise that we are not a traditional "auctioneer". Instead, our Site acts as a venue to allow members to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of formats, including a fixed price format and an auction-style format commonly referred to as an "online auction". We are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. As a result, we have no control over the quality, safety or legality of the items or content posted by users on the Site, the truth or accuracy of the listings, the ability of sellers to sell items or the ability of buyers to buy items. We cannot ensure and do not guarantee that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction or act lawfully in using our Site.

in other words, you're on your own...
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      03-23-2008, 08:04 PM   #277
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Can we have a few more "IANAL" type caveats, please? Except for the few attorneys who have posted, reading people's theories about how laws work is worthless.

IANAL! As for the "ethics" of the auction, to me, auctions are like the "stocks" of commercial transactions. Higher risk, higher reward. By not setting a price ahead of time, you may be rewarded when somebody pays more than you would have thought, but you also take the risk that you have overestimated the market.

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. If you're going to list a $68k car on eBay, you'd best learn about reserve prices if you are trying to attract bidders by lowballing.

P.S. -- IANAL = "I am not a lawyer" for those who don't visit slashdot.org frequently.
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      03-23-2008, 08:05 PM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botchka View Post
My father-in-law is in news at a local Lincoln, NE radio station. I've emailed him this link in hopes that he may pick up the story and run with it.
Thanks botchka, Id be more than happy to talk.
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      03-23-2008, 08:07 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
3.1 Online Auctions. Although we are commonly referred to as an online auction web site, it is important to realise that we are not a traditional "auctioneer". Instead, our Site acts as a venue to allow members to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of formats, including a fixed price format and an auction-style format commonly referred to as an "online auction". We are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. As a result, we have no control over the quality, safety or legality of the items or content posted by users on the Site, the truth or accuracy of the listings, the ability of sellers to sell items or the ability of buyers to buy items. We cannot ensure and do not guarantee that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction or act lawfully in using our Site.

in other words, you're on your own...
In other words, the OP cannot sue eBay if the sale does not go through. Whether that precludes the OP suing the seller is another story, which our legal representation here seems to think would be successful.
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      03-23-2008, 08:08 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
it's NOT a legally binding agreement or contract between buyer-seller, each has a contract with ebay, and they say they can't enforce it...
the complexities are confounding: across state lines, without signatures, without actually knowing who each party is...
they can not mandate one, nor enforce one...they are not a court...

from ebay
3. eBay is not an Auctioneer.

3.1 Online Auctions. Although we are commonly referred to as an online auction web site, it is important to realise that we are not a traditional "auctioneer". Instead, our Site acts as a venue to allow members to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of formats, including a fixed price format and an auction-style format commonly referred to as an "online auction". We are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. As a result, we have no control over the quality, safety or legality of the items or content posted by users on the Site, the truth or accuracy of the listings, the ability of sellers to sell items or the ability of buyers to buy items. We cannot ensure and do not guarantee that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction or act lawfully in using our Site.

in other words, you're on your own...
You forgot to bold "or act lawfully in using our site." I believe that is the real issue here. So eBay will not enforce completion of an auction. That does not negate the legality of what has transpired thus far.
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      03-23-2008, 08:08 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dooma350 View Post
Minor Update: Email response from Fil, GM at dealer.

So I sent an email to the dealer, linking m3post.com and autoblog this afternoon so he could get a feel for how big this has gotten. Coincidentally, this is when the moosman showed up too. My email to Fil:
(Note, nothing has been edited)
Fil,

As I mentioned, many people are outraged at this situation. Autoblog.com, a major automotive site has just now picked this story up.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/23/b...-hon/#comments
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127993

I am absolutely determined to follow-up on this to the end, to get the deal I am entitled to.
I hope we can get this resolved monday.

Fils response?

As repeated...I will converse with our corporate office. It feels like your harassing me. I now have people harassing me also. Easter is a special day for my religious beliefs, please let my family enjoy. Do not email anymore threats. Fil


I have never threatened Fil in anyway, but I think he is perceiving this situation as a threat to him. Granted the Easter thing, I can appreciate but I dont expect him to reply to emails written today. As for people harassing him, well thats beyond my control as I don't know why they are calling Fil. It could be for other transgressions commited by the dealership.That said, please dont threaten Fil at the dealership

I came here after it showed up on Autoblog. I'm not Fil's sock puppet if that is your intimation.

And, be very careful what you say in an e-mail. If you really did get janked around, don't compound it by involving yourself in barratry.

And, again, I'm sorry for my characterization of you earlier. I should not have called you names. I was wrong to do so.
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      03-23-2008, 08:09 PM   #282
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Best of luck to the OP on this sale going through. The dealer clearly knew what they were getting themselves into with this sale and legally owe him the car for the ending price.
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      03-23-2008, 08:10 PM   #283
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lol @ the Easter religious excuse. You're not harassing anyone with an email - he's choosing to check his email on his "religious special day" or whatever. That's his choice to read and reply. What a toolbarge.
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      03-23-2008, 08:11 PM   #284
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To the OP: I haven't read the entire thread (it's just too long at this point) so this may have been mentioned already, but in case it hasn't - you are entitled to the car at the winning bid price. When considering the legal costs involved if you were to pursue legal action keep in mind this case could easily be a deceptive trade practices case in which case the damages awarded would be TRIPLED. The dealership has a lot to lose here. They should pony up!

You really need to get a lawyer involved to make sure your rights are protected. There is a good chance a lawyer would advise you to avoid posting more about this case on the internet.
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      03-23-2008, 08:12 PM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dooma350 View Post
As repeated...I will converse with our corporate office. It feels like your harassing me. I now have people harassing me also. Easter is a special day for my religious beliefs, please let my family enjoy. Do not email anymore threats. Fil
I guess Fil hasn't figured out that we reap what we sow...life's rough...eh Fil? I sent an eloquent nastygram to the dealership. This thread's gone viral like a mug...2500 people on M3Post right now...wow!
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      03-23-2008, 08:13 PM   #286
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I saw this from e46fanatics and i want to wish you good luck and I am sure you are going to get your car. Not sure how it would be possible and im thinking out loud but does anyone think another dealership closer to him would want to give him the car in the color he wants at his price and then use it as good publicity or does every other dealer want to try to keep the prices about where they are in the market now? In any case good luck and I want to follow this to the end.
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