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      03-23-2008, 04:02 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
I know this is my first post, and the only thing I have in common, apparently, with any of you is that I own a BMW, which I enjoy driving.

But, as far as this situation goes, here is my take: I find the whole ordeal disgusting. I've been to a restaurant where the waiter gave me change for $100 when I paid with a $50. Naturally I returned the money. I've been at the bank where the teller gave me more money than the check I cashed. I obviously returned the money.

Here, we have a very analogous situation. You were bidding on the car with full knowledge that the vehicle was listed for less than invoice. You knew it was most likely a mistake. Did you e-mail the lister to find out if they intended to sell it under invoice? No, you wanted to profit from the mistake of another.

Now you want to post in here about how the dealer "screwed" you. Although I don't know what they have "cost" you in refusing to "honor" what was obviously a mistake on part of an agent of their organization. Rather than sympathize with the poor bastard who might lose his job in this worsening economy, all you can do is pout and pitch a tantrum like a 4 year old.

Seriously, and what is worse the constant support from others in here who believe that you are somehow "owed" that deal. Am I the only person who find you a morally reprehensible spoiled brat?

No wonder I never get anywhere in this world. I'm too worried about morals, ethics, principles, empathy and the other useless traits that tend to keep good guys down.

Good luck with your purchase, I hope you get your car, but it won't be worth what you paid for it, namely your humanity.
to be fair: you really don't know that the dealer made a mistake. it wouldn't be the first time someone was messed with by a dealer. so no, no body is losing their humanity. you're comparing getting wrong change for $50 bill to a car sale in the thousands, that's apples and oranges. the dealer probably watched the auction. this is my take on your take.
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      03-23-2008, 04:02 PM   #134
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Just thought i would show my support for your troubles.

but it seems that hundreds of people have heard about this and now all of autoblog has too.

It really boils down to legal action!!!!!! Ebay isnt so great with these things.

And all this garbage about BIN and reserve prices. BIN is not a reserve. END OF STORY.
You Won the car fair and square. There could be more than just the price of the car in it for you legally if this persists any longer.
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      03-23-2008, 04:02 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
I know this is my first post, and the only thing I have in common, apparently, with any of you is that I own a BMW, which I enjoy driving.

But, as far as this situation goes, here is my take: I find the whole ordeal disgusting. I've been to a restaurant where the waiter gave me change for $100 when I paid with a $50. Naturally I returned the money. I've been at the bank where the teller gave me more money than the check I cashed. I obviously returned the money.

Here, we have a very analogous situation. You were bidding on the car with full knowledge that the vehicle was listed for less than invoice. You knew it was most likely a mistake. Did you e-mail the lister to find out if they intended to sell it under invoice? No, you wanted to profit from the mistake of another.

Now you want to post in here about how the dealer "screwed" you. Although I don't know what they have "cost" you in refusing to "honor" what was obviously a mistake on part of an agent of their organization. Rather than sympathize with the poor bastard who might lose his job in this worsening economy, all you can do is pout and pitch a tantrum like a 4 year old.

Seriously, and what is worse the constant support from others in here who believe that you are somehow "owed" that deal. Am I the only person who find you a morally reprehensible spoiled brat?

No wonder I never get anywhere in this world. I'm too worried about morals, ethics, principles, empathy and the other useless traits that tend to keep good guys down.

Good luck with your purchase, I hope you get your car, but it won't be worth what you paid for it, namely your humanity.
I guess that you do not bid, much less buy, at eBay much...
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      03-23-2008, 04:06 PM   #136
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Mooseman (Or Fil or Michael)
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine, but lets get a few thing straight.

1) The dealer, of their own volition decided to sell on an auction site called ebay. Its also of their own volition to set no reserve, and title their auction LOWEST M3 ON EBAY.
2) Said auction site works by placing bids. I didnt set the opening bid of 60000, The dealership did. And 60K isnt chump change son.
3) I am obligated to purchase at the auction ending cost. Do you think the dealer would let me off the hook if i put in a bid of 100K and it ended? HELL F-ING NO.
4) The dealer changed their BUY IT NOW twice, thru the course of the auction. Its obvious they were fishing for more bids.
5) The "poor guy" you referred to laughed in my face, telling me how his company is a "Multi-Billion daollar" company, and I didnt have a chance. So even if you are the said poor guy, I say you have only yourself to blame.

You seem to be under the impression that dealerships are non-profit, people loving humanitarian companies. They are in this to make money, and dont have your best interest at heart. Even a guy like you, mooseman. In fact, they love to sell cars to people so oblivious, such as yourself. Lastly, please dont blame your lack of success on others. Look in the mirror, its you.

PS Mooseman, I'd love to see your IP address and compare it to the one I have for the dealership, lol. Please continue to post!

Last edited by dooma350; 03-23-2008 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Mooseman (AKA BMW of Lincoln) is a dolt.
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      03-23-2008, 04:06 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
I've been to a restaurant where the waiter gave me change for $100 when I paid with a $50. Naturally I returned the money. I've been at the bank where the teller gave me more money than the check I cashed. I obviously returned the money.
Good on ya for that. It just doesn't apply here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Here, we have a very analogous situation.
No we aren't. We're not talking about an individual who works for tips. We're talking about a dealership (or network of dealerships) who obviously from their BBB reports and eBay feedback have done this before and who will do it again. Also, there's no way if the coin were on the other side, that the dealership would just "let it go."
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      03-23-2008, 04:06 PM   #138
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Looks like Husker should be spelled Huckster. <g>

I went thru something very similar in the mid 1990's with a M-B (BMW too)
dealer - they sold the contracted car out from under me and told me that
I'd have to wait another five [5] months. I contacted MBNA HQ and sent
them my documentation. MBNA HQ moved heaven and earth to resolve the
problem to my satisfaction ... including moving a car overnite, via flat-bed
wrecker/hauler, from southern MO to MI.

I expect that BMWNA will engage in your favor once they are able to
confirm the facts.

FWIW - I just bought both www.HucksterBMW.com and
www.HucksterAutoGroup.com and pointed them at this thread.
It'll take a bit of time for the DNS records to percolate to the far corners of
the internet.

-doug

Last edited by rainsux; 03-23-2008 at 05:47 PM.
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      03-23-2008, 04:11 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
I know this is my first post, and the only thing I have in common, apparently, with any of you is that I own a BMW, which I enjoy driving.

But, as far as this situation goes, here is my take: I find the whole ordeal disgusting. I've been to a restaurant where the waiter gave me change for $100 when I paid with a $50. Naturally I returned the money. I've been at the bank where the teller gave me more money than the check I cashed. I obviously returned the money.

Here, we have a very analogous situation. You were bidding on the car with full knowledge that the vehicle was listed for less than invoice. You knew it was most likely a mistake. Did you e-mail the lister to find out if they intended to sell it under invoice? No, you wanted to profit from the mistake of another.

Now you want to post in here about how the dealer "screwed" you. Although I don't know what they have "cost" you in refusing to "honor" what was obviously a mistake on part of an agent of their organization. Rather than sympathize with the poor bastard who might lose his job in this worsening economy, all you can do is pout and pitch a tantrum like a 4 year old.

Seriously, and what is worse the constant support from others in here who believe that you are somehow "owed" that deal. Am I the only person who find you a morally reprehensible spoiled brat?

No wonder I never get anywhere in this world. I'm too worried about morals, ethics, principles, empathy and the other useless traits that tend to keep good guys down.

Good luck with your purchase, I hope you get your car, but it won't be worth what you paid for it, namely your humanity.
So you're saying that it is every consumer's responsibility to do the research to determine if a company is screwing itself by selling something below their invoice??

The situations you described are different. There are legal ramifications that come into play with banks. They can and have gone after people when the mistakes are caught.

You entered into a contract with the bank to be returned the money from that check just as the OP entered into a contract with the dealership to be sold the agreed upon price.

The only, vaguely remote way I could see even a little morality come into play here is if the OP KNEW {through inside knowledge} the ad was a mistake in advance beyond just a good price and I don't see that here.

Since the MSRP is $53,000 for the base model {yes, I know there were extra features}, the dealership is just pissed b/c they were counting on the bidding frenzy and did not get it. They're stupid and should have set a reserve price.
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      03-23-2008, 04:11 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
But, as far as this situation goes, here is my take: I find the whole ordeal disgusting. I've been to a restaurant where the waiter gave me change for $100 when I paid with a $50. Naturally I returned the money. I've been at the bank where the teller gave me more money than the check I cashed. I obviously returned the money.

Here, we have a very analogous situation. You were bidding on the car with full knowledge that the vehicle was listed for less than invoice. You knew it was most likely a mistake. Did you e-mail the lister to find out if they intended to sell it under invoice? No, you wanted to profit from the mistake of another.
No, no, no sir. You are wrong - dead wrong.

And here is why: the auction system is specifically designed to allow for initial pricing to be set where ever the seller wishes and for the marketplace to determine the true value of the product in question. This is not a restaurant or bank with a fixed price transaction. This is an online auction house where the final price is determined by the bidders and only by the bidders.

Furthermore, routinely, items are placed on ebay way below their market value. In fact, items are placed on ebay with a starting price of $0.01. I've done this myself. So there is absolutely no way to say that this auction price was a mistake. In fact, quite to the contrary, the dealership advertised it as the lowest price on the internet. They knew their price was low - very low. What they thought would happen was that it would bid up to or near MSRP. It did not. But they knew the risk of this full well, and chose to take it.

What I recommend for you is to be absolutely sure you understand the circumstances of a situation before you pass such harsh judgement. When we are speaking of morals with such conviction, its also important to remember that its absolutely immoral to pass judgement on a person or persons when you have not taken the time to understand their plight beforehand.

Good day to you.
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      03-23-2008, 04:15 PM   #141
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Send a message via AIM to eurospek
What happens if they happen to sell the car in the meantime?
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      03-23-2008, 04:21 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurospek View Post
What happens if they happen to sell the car in the meantime?
Then legally they will have to provide an equivalent car at the $60k price. That is, assuming it went into court and they lost.
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      03-23-2008, 04:24 PM   #143
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this is everywhere now

every single forum ive checked today this is it,autoblog motortrend this is blowing up in their face big time,i say suck it up butternuts,u screwed up give the man his car,60000 is nothin to laugh at
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      03-23-2008, 04:25 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
I know this is my first post, and the only thing I have in common, apparently, with any of you is that I own a BMW, which I enjoy driving.

But, as far as this situation goes, here is my take: I find the whole ordeal disgusting. I've been to a restaurant where the waiter gave me change for $100 when I paid with a $50. Naturally I returned the money. I've been at the bank where the teller gave me more money than the check I cashed. I obviously returned the money.

Here, we have a very analogous situation. You were bidding on the car with full knowledge that the vehicle was listed for less than invoice. You knew it was most likely a mistake. Did you e-mail the lister to find out if they intended to sell it under invoice? No, you wanted to profit from the mistake of another.

Now you want to post in here about how the dealer "screwed" you. Although I don't know what they have "cost" you in refusing to "honor" what was obviously a mistake on part of an agent of their organization. Rather than sympathize with the poor bastard who might lose his job in this worsening economy, all you can do is pout and pitch a tantrum like a 4 year old.

Seriously, and what is worse the constant support from others in here who believe that you are somehow "owed" that deal. Am I the only person who find you a morally reprehensible spoiled brat?

No wonder I never get anywhere in this world. I'm too worried about morals, ethics, principles, empathy and the other useless traits that tend to keep good guys down.

Good luck with your purchase, I hope you get your car, but it won't be worth what you paid for it, namely your humanity.
So every other poster on here is wrong and you (presumably BMW of Lincoln) is right?
What about the auto group's handling of the Z06 situation? You act like this is an isolated incident and the poor dealer is being taken advantage of. As if that ever happens.
How many people have you screwed into buying a car? Sleeping ok at night?
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      03-23-2008, 04:26 PM   #145
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oh and if you noticed im stuck in a crappy 93 accord,i would kill for the new m3 i just got the brochures for it from bmw(im a total car nut) and man is it gorgeous so congrats on your new holy grail,and IMO black over silver exterior anyday,but that red looks ugly on the inside,could just be the dealers crappy photos
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      03-23-2008, 04:29 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homerjsimp View Post
to be fair: you really don't know that the dealer made a mistake. it wouldn't be the first time someone was messed with by a dealer. so no, no body is losing their humanity. you're comparing getting wrong change for $50 bill to a car sale in the thousands, that's apples and oranges. the dealer probably watched the auction. this is my take on your take.
Exactly! The point is that the dealership knew EXACTLY what they were doing! That's why they changed their price 2 times during the auction! They were trying to get way over invoice (thinking the M3 market is hotter than it truly is) and they got called on it by a bidder following the rules set by Ebay! I think mooseman is totally off base on this one.
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      03-23-2008, 04:32 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
No, no, no sir. You are wrong - dead wrong.

And here is why: the auction system is specifically designed to allow for initial pricing to be set where ever the seller wishes and for the marketplace to determine the true value of the product in question. This is not a restaurant or bank with a fixed price transaction. This is an online auction house where the final price is determined by the bidders and only by the bidders.

Furthermore, routinely, items are placed on ebay way below their market value. In fact, items are placed on ebay with a starting price of $0.01. I've done this myself. So there is absolutely no way to say that this auction price was a mistake. In fact, quite to the contrary, the dealership advertised it as the lowest price on the internet. They knew their price was low - very low. What they thought would happen was that it would bid up to or near MSRP. It did not. But they knew the risk of this full well, and chose to take it.

What I recommend for you is to be absolutely sure you understand the circumstances of a situation before you pass such harsh judgement. When we are speaking of morals with such conviction, its also important to remember that its absolutely immoral to pass judgement on a person or persons when you have not taken the time to understand their plight beforehand.

Good day to you.
YOU SAID THIS BETTER THAN I EVER COULD! EXACTLY THE CORRECT POINT!
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      03-23-2008, 04:44 PM   #148
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Registered to keep an eye on how this pans out. To the original poster, good luck to you sir!
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      03-23-2008, 04:45 PM   #149
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I wish you the best of luck from Denmark! (yep, i guess this matter is international now, as i got tipped off about this by a swedish guy )

That BMW dealer should be closed, or atleast someone should be fired!
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      03-23-2008, 04:48 PM   #150
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dooma350 -

I saw your post and joined this site to post to you.

You need to contact NBC News. You should try to contact a national correspondent. Once this information goes public you will immediately put the dealership in the spotlight. BAD PRESS is a horrible thing they will not want to deal with. Someone will step in and you should get your car. This is news that people would love to hear about and they will definately side with you on this!!!!!!

Call them tomorrow!



Quote:
Originally Posted by dooma350 View Post
Mooseman (Or Fil or Michael)
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine, but lets get a few thing straight.

1) The dealer, of their own volition decided to sell on an auction site called ebay. Its also of their own volition to set no reserve, and title their auction LOWEST M3 ON EBAY.
2) Said auction site works by placing bids. I didnt set the opening bid of 60000, The dealership did. And 60K isnt chump change son.
3) I am obligated to purchase at the auction ending cost. Do you think the dealer would let me off the hook if i put in a bid of 100K and it ended? HELL F-ING NO.
4) The dealer changed their BUY IT NOW twice, thru the course of the auction. Its obvious they were fishing for more bids.
5) The "poor guy" you referred to laughed in my face, telling me how his company is a "Multi-Billion daollar" company, and I didnt have a chance. So even if you are the said poor guy, I say you have only yourself to blame.

You seem to be under the impression that dealerships are non-profit, people loving humanitarian companies. They are in this to make money, and dont have your best interest at heart. Even a guy like you, mooseman. In fact, they love to sell cars to people so oblivious, such as yourself. Lastly, please dont blame your lack of success on others. Look in the mirror, its you.

PS Mooseman, I'd love to see your IP address and compare it to the one I have for the dealership, lol. Please continue to post!
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      03-23-2008, 04:48 PM   #151
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Solid info about ebay bidding & pricing from experienced ebay seller

I've been on ebay since 1999 and I know the reserve, pricing, buy it now, etc. system extremely well. What I say is 100% accurate.

A reserve price means no matter what the bid is, the seller is not obligated to complete the transaction unless the final bid is at least equal to the reserve.

Buy it now means just that--there's a button you click to Buy It Now, you pay whatever that price is, and it's just another Internet transaction.

There is NO RELATIONSHIP between Buy it now & reserve--each is a separate price determined by the seller. A winning bid can be LESS than the BUY IT NOW price but it can never be less than the reserve price--IF THERE IS A RESERVE, and that is really the problem this dealership has.
A seller does not have to have either a buy it now or a reserve price but they have the option to have either or both.

It is completely irrelevant how the listed, or final, price compares to invoice or anything else. The only thing that matters is whether or not there is a reserve. If the seller failed to put a reserve, that's his problem and the buyer absolutely cannot be penalized for it.

For example: I list my 2003 Accord for $5000. The minimum I would accept for this car is $10,000, the KBB value is $12,000. I put a $13,000 BUY IT NOW on this listing, and a $10,000 reserve.

Scenario 1: the highest bid is $9500. I am not obligated to sell the car at all. If I decide I am willing to sell it for $9500, I have to email the highest bidder and offer him the $9500 price (or other price of my choosing) and he has the right to refuse, even if I ultimately decide to offer it for $9000! If an auction ends with the highest bid less than the reserve price, it is null and void and neither the highest bidder nor the seller are obligated to do anything.

Scenario 2: Somebody buys it now for $13,000. The auction immediately ends and I have to sell him the car. My only way out would have been if I had closed the auction BEFORE he did the buy it now (but then he couldn't have done it!!). And, if someone contacted me 10 mins after the buy it now and offered me $14K, I am still obligated to sell it for $13K to the "buy it now" bidder--it's a done deal.

Scenario 3: Someone bids $10,001 for my car, and that ends up being the winning bid. I have to sell it for that, even though it is below the KBB value, because it is greater than my reserve. If I wasn't willing to sell it for that price, then I should have set the reserve higher--it's my own fault for setting it where I did.

The above info is 100% correct. The whole problem is that the dealership didn't put a reserve on the price. Period. No one knows what the reserve is so they could easily have set one for $70K, $80K or whatever they wanted to. Because they did not make a reserve, they are stuck.

If you had done BUY IT NOW for that price (I forget what it was) they would also have been obligated to sell--and you would have been obligated to buy.
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      03-23-2008, 04:50 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainsux View Post

FWIW - I just bought www.HucksterBMW.com and pointed it at this
thread. (It'll take a bit of time for the DNS records to percolate to the far
corners of the internet.)

-doug

lol...nice

another reminder to digg the story, let's get this on the front page...

http://digg.com/autos/Dealer_auction...n_t_honor_deal
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      03-23-2008, 04:51 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
But they knew the risk of this full well, and chose to take it.
exactly. they could have ended the auction at the same time they were lowering the BIN price.
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      03-23-2008, 04:52 PM   #154
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Hey Dooma,

I was the one that reported this to AutoBlog last night. I really hope you get what you deserve bud...i hate dishonesty and i'm with you all the way!

Ken
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