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      03-18-2008, 02:12 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
Jesus Christ was indeed a Jew, betrayed by his own faith. They gave Him up for a common thief named Barabus. They still do not accept Him as who He is.

You see, unless you study & have understanding, much of what is misunderstood is revealed very plainly.
I know that you believe that Jesus was killed by Jews but if you read the Torah you would know how unbelievable this would be. It goes against everything we believe in. In addition Jews don't crucify, Romans do. So if you do have an understanding of history it is plain you are right on that point.

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People on this forum that keep saying the Bible is a fairy tale book. Even if this book were written by mortal man many years ago (which it is not), how do you suppose you can read the books of the New Testatment, especially Revelations, and see with yours eyes on paper, prophecy revealed. Things that have happened and are currently happening that are fulfilling prophecy this very day. How would you suppose mortal man knew all this was going to take place hundreds of yrs later?
So why is it that for hundreds of years people have been quoting the same scriptures to show that revelations is coming? You see its written with such ambiguity that it always looks like the end is coming. In my opinion the Bible is more or a book of moral stories handed down from generation to generation to show people who to behave and explain morals. It certainly has undergone many transformations over the generations which is why Jewdiasm, Islam and all forms of Christianity all have slightly different versions. - Remember I'm an Agnostic which lets me play both sides of the argument.

But I do have a another question for you. If there is a God at all and IF he had a son why would this son only appear to one part of the world? Why not go to the far east and be a prophet their as well? Why couldn't he rise in the new land as Mourmons proclaim? Wouldn't a God and his son do more than just effect one group of people?

Lastly your religious intollerance actually frightens me! This is the unfortunate effect of a war with religious fundamentalists. You see whenever two countries are at war they tend to become like each other in the opposite directions. Yes Islam has its radical fundamentalists but I'm afraid the intollerance that you are preaching leads to the same type of fundamentalists here. See KKK, Skin heads, Nazi's, etc. This type of intollerance is what leads to wars. This feeling of superiority and a need to make others not only see but agree to your point of view. I'm fine with the peaceful practice and spreading of religion. I believe it has a lot of good to offer people and it does do good for people in their lives. It helps many people find a purpose in life. But this intollerance only leads to very bad things.
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      03-18-2008, 02:12 PM   #156
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Even if this book were written by mortal man many years ago (which it is not), how do you suppose you can read the books of the New Testatment, especially Revelations, and see with yours eyes on paper, prophecy revealed. Things that have happened and are currently happening that are fulfilling prophecy this very day. How would you suppose mortal man knew all this was going to take place hundreds of yrs later?
The Bible was indubitably written by men. All of it. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise. Infact, much of the original Bible was removed by the church way back in the day to make it easier to control the masses. At the same time, the substantially altered the Torah, to allow for a smoother transition into the Gospel.

And they didn't know what was going to happen. You can interpret pretty much any part of the Bible to mean whatever you want, including revelations.

Also, you sound like an anti-semite who's watched a few too many Mel Gibson movies that are about as historically accurate as Harry Potter.
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      03-18-2008, 02:15 PM   #157
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To the OP and getting back on track -

I believe that IF there is a God (and that's a BIG IF) then he would and wouldn't know the future. He would know us and would know what options we have and could see the future of each option but the choice is ours alone so he wouldn't know what the actual future would be although he would know what it would look like.
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      03-18-2008, 02:18 PM   #158
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Would you throw your child in a furnace if he/she doesn't believe what you say?

Just a hypothetical question.
No my human nature (or human-ness) would never allow me to do such a thing. And God does not do this to children either. Those that have not reached an age of accountabiltiy (can understand that Jesus came to die for their sins). Children or infants that die before this age automatically go to heaven.

Once a child reaches the age of accountability; they must make their decision of how they will live; if that older child, young adult, or old adult, makes a decision to live outside of God's will; then yes, when they die, they will go into the lake of fire; not an easy subject to talk about or discuss because most people only want to hear the good part of life, not the terrible. We must pay for the sins we have committed in life and did not repent for. The word repent by the way means to go in the other direction. It doesn't mean to keep doing what you have repented of.

This is why most all Christian religions do not christened or sprinkle infants, or baptize children prior to their understanding what they are doing. We cannot "baptize or enable children to be Christians" ourselves. They must do this on their own. Now we have a baby dedication where we have a ceremony when parents bring their new babies to the front of the church and dedicate how their children will be raised. This is an acknowledgement that parents will raise their children to honor God and the parents will bring them to church, raise them in a Godly home, etc.
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      03-18-2008, 02:34 PM   #159
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I know that you believe that Jesus was killed by Jews but if you read the Torah you would know how unbelievable this would be. It goes against everything we believe in. In addition Jews don't crucify, Romans do. So if you do have an understanding of history it is plain you are right on that point.

Excuse me, but the Jews didn't crucify Christ; they gave Him to the Romans by selecting who would be released from jail, Barabus or Jesus; they didn't do the actual crucifixion???????


So why is it that for hundreds of years people have been quoting the same scriptures to show that revelations is coming? You see its written with such ambiguity that it always looks like the end is coming. In my opinion the Bible is more or a book of moral stories handed down from generation to generation to show people who to behave and explain morals. It certainly has undergone many transformations over the generations which is why Jewdiasm, Islam and all forms of Christianity all have slightly different versions. - Remember I'm an Agnostic which lets me play both sides of the argument.

Remember: God says we cannot straddle the fence; you are either for Him, or against Him.....


But I do have a another question for you. If there is a God at all and IF he had a son why would this son only appear to one part of the world? Why not go to the far east and be a prophet their as well? Why couldn't he rise in the new land as Mourmons proclaim? Wouldn't a God and his son do more than just effect one group of people?

God affected all of mankind with the birth of His son, Jesus. He was born in Bethlehem....He has never risen but once and that was to go to heaven to sit at the right hand of His Father....

Lastly your religious intollerance actually frightens me! This is the unfortunate effect of a war with religious fundamentalists. You see whenever two countries are at war they tend to become like each other in the opposite directions. Yes Islam has its radical fundamentalists but I'm afraid the intollerance that you are preaching leads to the same type of fundamentalists here. See KKK, Skin heads, Nazi's, etc. This type of intollerance is what leads to wars. This feeling of superiority and a need to make others not only see but agree to your point of view. I'm fine with the peaceful practice and spreading of religion. I believe it has a lot of good to offer people and it does do good for people in their lives. It helps many people find a purpose in life. But this intollerance only leads to very bad things.
I cannot disagree with you more as far as intolerance goes. I would love to say every person I come across that isn't a Christian believes my message, but sadly that isn't the truth. My fundamentalism as everyone calls it has nothing whatsoever to do with KKK, skinheads, Nazi's....I detest them all...everyone of these groups are anything but Christian or have any truth in them...I feel superior to noone, not one; my Savior is; and yes, just as you've said and I have said many times here in these posts, there are many good things that come out of a lot of "religions." I just know that a lot of these religions are not teaching the word of God.
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      03-18-2008, 02:45 PM   #160
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I cannot disagree with you more as far as intolerance goes. I would love to say every person I come across that isn't a Christian believes my message, but sadly that isn't the truth. My fundamentalism as everyone calls it has nothing whatsoever to do with KKK, skinheads, Nazi's....I detest them all...everyone of these groups are anything but Christian or have any truth in them...I feel superior to noone, not one; my Savior is; and yes, just as you've said and I have said many times here in these posts, there are many good things that come out of a lot of "religions." I just know that a lot of these religions are not teaching the word of God.
And yet it is not okay with you that others don't believe in what you do. That is by definition Intolerance.
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      03-18-2008, 06:44 PM   #161
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And yet it is not okay with you that others don't believe in what you do. That is by definition Intolerance.
I am very tolerant of others, even though they may not believe the way that I believe; just like yourself, I speak my opinion on what I feel to be followers of Christ and what the Bible tells us; but everyone chooses what they want to believe; I can't change that; I can only hope that through helping people understand the Bible that some will change; if not, I can love them anyway.
This is just a discussion forum, which basically is a debate forum is the way I see it. In the end, everyone will decide for themselves what they believe to be correct.

I will always stand firm and steadfast on my understanding of creation and Jesus.....I shall not be moved; but I donot condemn you or anyone else if they do not choose to believe; it's their loss....
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      03-18-2008, 08:13 PM   #162
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I am very tolerant of others, even though they may not believe the way that I believe; just like yourself, I speak my opinion on what I feel to be followers of Christ and what the Bible tells us; but everyone chooses what they want to believe; I can't change that; I can only hope that through helping people understand the Bible that some will change; if not, I can love them anyway.
This is just a discussion forum, which basically is a debate forum is the way I see it. In the end, everyone will decide for themselves what they believe to be correct.

I will always stand firm and steadfast on my understanding of creation and Jesus.....I shall not be moved; but I donot condemn you or anyone else if they do not choose to believe; it's their loss....
Okay I can live with that. Sometimes its hard on here to tell the difference between a healthy debate and something else. For the record I have a lot of friends that are born again Christians one even works at a Church and we love to have these types of discussions so thank you.
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      03-19-2008, 09:24 AM   #163
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Dogs don't cry or wag their tail in happiness?

Dog's don't have free will?

Dog's don't THINK?!

Animals absolutely do have free will, thinking minds and emotions. Don't be silly.
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      03-19-2008, 09:26 AM   #164
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..... Prodestant, ........ non-denominasional? ................. Jewdaism ...........


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      03-19-2008, 10:03 AM   #165
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Even if this book were written by mortal man many years ago (which it is not), how do you suppose you can read the books of the New Testatment, especially Revelations, and see with yours eyes on paper, prophecy revealed. Things that have happened and are currently happening that are fulfilling prophecy this very day. How would you suppose mortal man knew all this was going to take place hundreds of yrs later?
Wow.

Even the bible scholars (the ones you say educated you) agree the Bible - BOTH TESTAMENTS were written by man. Some claim those men were inspired by God while they wrote, but it was NOT written by god.

The bible's "prophecy" is self fulfilling anyways. The language can be interpreted so many ways, some of it is bound to be interpreted as fortune telling. This isn't the only document that is claimed to tell the future though. In fact, there are thousands. Nostradamus' prophecy for example, comes true more than the bible, but for the same reasons. You don't worship him, right?! By the way, he swore his prophecy was delivered through divine conversation.

All praise the French Alchemist!
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      03-19-2008, 10:06 AM   #166
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I know that you believe that Jesus was killed by Jews but if you read the Torah you would know how unbelievable this would be. It goes against everything we believe in. In addition Jews don't crucify, Romans do. So if you do have an understanding of history it is plain you are right on that point.
Pilate (the local Roman Governor) put it to the Jews to decide who to free from prison, and who to crucify. The Jews chose to free Barabus, because Jesus was considered a heretic and a blasphemer. He claimed to be the son of god, which was a big no no. So while you're right, that the Romans were the ones who crucified people as punishment (Jesus was far from exclusive in this light), it was the Jews that damned him.
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      03-19-2008, 08:10 PM   #167
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Wow.

Even the bible scholars (the ones you say educated you) agree the Bible - BOTH TESTAMENTS were written by man. Some claim those men were inspired by God while they wrote, but it was NOT written by god.

The bible's "prophecy" is self fulfilling anyways. The language can be interpreted so many ways, some of it is bound to be interpreted as fortune telling. This isn't the only document that is claimed to tell the future though. In fact, there are thousands. Nostradamus' prophecy for example, comes true more than the bible, but for the same reasons. You don't worship him, right?! By the way, he swore his prophecy was delivered through divine conversation.

All praise the French Alchemist!
I know that the books of the Bible were written by men; but they were inspired by God; through His intervention in their lives in one way or another, He directed their writings; it was not these men whose message was written but the message of God through them.

In Paul's time, when he wrote Acts, it was much later and he wrote in Acts 1:3 that Jesus was seen many times in the 40 days AFTER His crucifixion. Would you supposed that every disciple He had, along with Mary, Mary Magdalene and several other prophets of that time were wrong. Every bit of it is a totally made up story. Not one person, but many saw Him after resurrection. Thomas continued to doubt Him until He actually encountered Him himself and was asked by Jesus to place his finger in his side.

Doubting has not just come in the 21st century.
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      03-19-2008, 08:22 PM   #168
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Dogs don't cry or wag their tail in happiness?

Dog's don't have free will?

Dog's don't THINK?!

Animals absolutely do have free will, thinking minds and emotions. Don't be silly.
When I speak of animals having no free will; yes, they have joy when they are petted, loved, fed, etc. at the moment; but they have no conscientious; they don't care whose hand they bite, have no guilt over it; they don't care if they wet your floor and are not sorry afterward; they do not grieve when you take their offspring away and sell them; those human emotions to discern good from bad, feeling guilty, knowing right from wrong; they do not have.
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      03-19-2008, 08:31 PM   #169
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When I speak of animals having no free will; yes, they have joy when they are petted, loved, fed, etc. at the moment; but they have no conscientious; they don't care whose hand they bite, have no guilt over it; they don't care if they wet your floor and are not sorry afterward; they do not grieve when you take their offspring away and sell them; those human emotions to discern good from bad, feeling guilty, knowing right from wrong; they do not have.
You sure?

my friend's dog ALWAYS runs after me and tries to bite me, which he licks my friend's face every now and then. The dog has no guilt when he bite people's hands because he intended to bite that person. He hates me, so he bit me. Why is there guilt? Last time my friend's dog wet the floor(long time ago), he sat beside that puddle of pee and did not leave until we cleaned it up. I can feel that he's sorry and some guilt, too. I don't have a real life example with the offspring one, but if you try to take away a bear's cubs, i'll guarantee it'll tear you up in peices.
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      03-20-2008, 01:13 AM   #170
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When I speak of animals having no free will; yes, they have joy when they are petted, loved, fed, etc. at the moment; but they have no conscientious; they don't care whose hand they bite, have no guilt over it; they don't care if they wet your floor and are not sorry afterward; they do not grieve when you take their offspring away and sell them; those human emotions to discern good from bad, feeling guilty, knowing right from wrong; they do not have.
Having been a dog owner I have to disagree with you here. They certainly do know right and wrong if they are taught. I used to have a picture of my old dog with a pile of torn up papers all around him. His ears are back, and his face obviously shows he knows he's in trouble. On the flipside this dog also worked with autistic kids. He knew how much he could play with the kids. The ones that were the worst off he would just kuddle with. Those that were stronger he'd play tug a war with but very gently and as those kids grew in strength so too was how he played with them. It was an incredible sight to see. He CERTAINLY had a conscious. The unfortunate part about our domesticated animals is that MOST people don't believe our animals can know as much as they can. They don't hold them to higher standards and just as a human child that is not expected to do much they live right into that. If you expect a lot out of them they will live right into that! I was simply amazed at what this dog could do! (He passed few years ago.)
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      03-20-2008, 01:38 AM   #171
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When I speak of animals having no free will; yes, they have joy when they are petted, loved, fed, etc. at the moment; but they have no conscientious; they don't care whose hand they bite, have no guilt over it; they don't care if they wet your floor and are not sorry afterward; they do not grieve when you take their offspring away and sell them; those human emotions to discern good from bad, feeling guilty, knowing right from wrong; they do not have.
Just because they do not have higher brain functions like we do don't assume that they don't feel emotions. Why would humans be the only beings with emotions? Would that make any sense at all?


Most human emotions are bound by external influences. How you were raised, your racial, ethnic and socio-economic demographics all play into what you "feel". Ask Charlie Manson how he "felt" after he killed all those girls, I bet the answer isn't "i felt guilty"


News flash: Humans are really not all that important, to think so is delusional and self-righteous. People are no different than a common dog except we have larger brains and have formed concise linguistic skills and thus have been able to specialize in different tasks and collectively raise up our standard of living. 80 thousand years ago we were very much like animals. Primitive, savage, and probably significantly less emotional. It's only because we have mastered food prodction and animal domestication that we have the luxury of exploring our emotions in more depth.

Bottom line: don't compare human emotions to anything because they are a facade at best. They are only real to the person feeling them at the time they are felt and are subjective to all sorts of external influences beyond our control.
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      03-20-2008, 06:33 PM   #172
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When I speak of animals having no free will; yes, they have joy when they are petted, loved, fed, etc. at the moment; but they have no conscientious; they don't care whose hand they bite, have no guilt over it; they don't care if they wet your floor and are not sorry afterward; they do not grieve when you take their offspring away and sell them; those human emotions to discern good from bad, feeling guilty, knowing right from wrong; they do not have.

You said they have no free will or joy. How do you know they don't have consciousness? Please provide proof.

My dad's dog certainly cares who's hand he bites. When he plays with me, he's rough, but playful. He'll gently bite me, but just basically puts his teeth on my hand. When the neighbor's dog started barking threateningly at me, He charged him and almost took is face off! When he plays with my 19 month yr old, gentle doens't even describe it. He's also patient when his tail is pulled or his ear is bent by the little guy. Not so when I do it though!

As for guilt, even as a puppy, when Luke had an accident, he was ASHAMED and obviously so! Tail between his legs, wouldn't lock eyes with you, head down. He was left inside for too long, so it wasn't his fault, so he never got scolded. AFter a little reassurance, he cheered up, and started wagging again!

My old dog Lizzy, when she caught her first squirrel, was the proudest, cockiest little retriever you've ever seen! Dogs not only have emotion, consciousness, they also have personality.

I think you give humans way to much credit (or animals way too little). After all, a nice tummy rub, and a good piece of meat is just about all it takes to make me happy too!
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      03-20-2008, 06:37 PM   #173
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I know that the books of the Bible were written by men; but they were inspired by God; through His intervention in their lives in one way or another, He directed their writings; it was not these men whose message was written but the message of God through them.

In Paul's time, when he wrote Acts, it was much later and he wrote in Acts 1:3 that Jesus was seen many times in the 40 days AFTER His crucifixion. Would you supposed that every disciple He had, along with Mary, Mary Magdalene and several other prophets of that time were wrong. Every bit of it is a totally made up story. Not one person, but many saw Him after resurrection. Thomas continued to doubt Him until He actually encountered Him himself and was asked by Jesus to place his finger in his side.

Doubting has not just come in the 21st century.


How do you know they were inspired by god, or the people didn't just say that to justify their belief system? After the Old Testament, God stopped actively meddling in human affairs (no more floods, vengance, Towers of Babel, speaking to bearded men on the mount, etc.) Why do you think that is?

Maybe because they're all just stories?? Or do you know they were inspired by god, because the bible told you, and the bible is right because god inspired it?

Seem a bit circular to you?
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      03-21-2008, 12:02 AM   #174
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You said they have no free will or joy. How do you know they don't have consciousness? Please provide proof.

They hv joy for the moment they are in; they do not however remember this joy after the fact; tomorrow they do not remember what they did; they do not feel guilt when they bite, bark uncontrollably, wet or poop the floor; their is not conscientious.

My dad's dog certainly cares who's hand he bites. When he plays with me, he's rough, but playful. He'll gently bite me, but just basically puts his teeth on my hand. When the neighbor's dog started barking threateningly at me, He charged him and almost took is face off! When he plays with my 19 month yr old, gentle doens't even describe it. He's also patient when his tail is pulled or his ear is bent by the little guy. Not so when I do it though!

I know what you mean; I hv a very smart little doxie I would love to believe was half human; but there is a difference in their "smartness" and how they use it; I know that a lot of animals (usually dogs) do some heroic things, unusual things, but not the general dog or animal. They find joy in playing or a tummy rub, but they do not remember tomorrow what made them happy today or sad yesterday, or even an old owner they have previously had.

As for guilt, even as a puppy, when Luke had an accident, he was ASHAMED and obviously so! Tail between his legs, wouldn't lock eyes with you, head down. He was left inside for too long, so it wasn't his fault, so he never got scolded. AFter a little reassurance, he cheered up, and started wagging again!


Here again, they know "at the moment" what they've done; they do not carry that guilt farther; my doxie will look away from you just like you say; but he'll do it again.
My old dog Lizzy, when she caught her first squirrel, was the proudest, cockiest little retriever you've ever seen! Dogs not only have emotion, consciousness, they also have personality.

There again, mine has lots of personality; everyone loves him; he too caught a squirrel & ran all over the backyard with it, thrilled with his catch; but what animals lack is the ability to have a repentant heart. They do not feel guilt for a length of time; it's short lived.

I think you give humans way to much credit (or animals way too little). After all, a nice tummy rub, and a good piece of meat is just about all it takes to make me happy too!
I am definitely an animal lover and have been everywhere to see them in the wild; grizzlies on Katmai Island, AK; wolves in Y'stone; moose, etc. All of these animals have great intellect for survival and daily living but I'm sorry, they do not retain emotions as in remembering from day to day.

We have a conscientious that tells us right from wrong; we feel guilt when we do something wrong; if we hurt someone today, we think of it tomorrow or even longer. We have the ability to repent of our sins and to realize that we have done something. This separates us from the animal kingdom.

Charles Manson was mentioned earlier; but Charles Manson was a very sick individual; a psychopathic personality; you cannot judge the people around the world by these type of individuals. You might even say he is like an animal in that he has no conscientious.
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      03-21-2008, 12:26 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
I am definitely an animal lover and have been everywhere to see them in the wild; grizzlies on Katmai Island, AK; wolves in Y'stone; moose, etc. All of these animals have great intellect for survival and daily living but I'm sorry, they do not retain emotions as in remembering from day to day.

We have a conscientious that tells us right from wrong; we feel guilt when we do something wrong; if we hurt someone today, we think of it tomorrow or even longer. We have the ability to repent of our sins and to realize that we have done something. This separates us from the animal kingdom.

Charles Manson was mentioned earlier; but Charles Manson was a very sick individual; a psychopathic personality; you cannot judge the people around the world by these type of individuals. You might even say he is like an animal in that he has no conscientious.
Sorry not buying it. How do you know they don't feel. When you think of what dolphins do to save not only people but other species as well, when you think of Gorillas helping tribes, when you think of the memories that even our common animals have the definately have memories and feelings. They know right from wrong. The only lack 2 things that we have: a written language (you can argue they have their own languages pretty easily) and thumbs to grab things. Other than that really not a lot of differences.

I also believe that even in Genesis it says something to the effect that man will rule the planet but that we are not superior to the other animals on it.
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      03-21-2008, 12:30 AM   #176
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Also when you think of it isn't it really man that kills without conscious? Don't we kill animals in the billions. Don't we hunt species to extintion? Don't we hunt more than is needed? How many other animal species do you know that do that? I'll give you that answer 0. In some ways you could really argue that they are much more intelligent and certainly live more at one with nature and with the way god intended than we do!

You seem to hold animals to a double standard. They should have a conscious and not kill or hurt or at least feel guilt when they kill but we do exactly that to them ALL THE TIME!
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