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      03-09-2008, 09:07 PM   #111
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Well to the original question, evolution or creation? The world made itself or someone made it? By science reasoning the world is too complex and too-well designed to be self made. By the natural laws of thermodynamics there has to be a makers that created these laws and theory. Unless there is some kind of natural unexplained phenomenon that breaks this law we have to say a creator is responsible by default and theory until proven otherwise.
If you use the big bang theory there are too many question unanswered mainly where did everything come from? how did such a destruction create order while history has shown such impact causes disorder?
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      03-09-2008, 09:28 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Evidence for it is readily available for both peer review and laymen education.
Since you wanted me to provide “evidence”, here it is, straight from the mouth of National Academy of Sciences.

http://books.nap.edu/html/11876/SECbrochure.pdf
I suppose I can forgive this since I haven't mentioned it in this specific thread, but I will now. (And you may recall it from other threads) Changes in traits and allele frequency is easily proven and I agree it works. What bothers me is that humans, indeed every single organism on this planet came about from a pool of water with some organic compounds floating in it. Chemistry tells us how those compounds were formed on the early Earth, but after that we have no explanation. Let me again remind you that intelligent design doesn't not necessarily refer to God. That phamplet said "creationism" which is but one possibility of intelligent design. It could have been God, or it could have been the black monolith, some alien species, et al.
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      03-09-2008, 10:13 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
scotty…scotty, I feel anger. I feel defeat coming from your words. Don’t you understand that you can’t debate me on facts and evidence? Your belief is based on anything but evidence. My trust is supported by it. What hyperbole? BE specific?
I'm not angry. Perhaps my writing style came across as angry. But, I assure you, I am not angry. If we were debating matters of science then we could debate facts based on science. If we are debating something in scripture, we can debate in the realm of Bible Study, faith, and history. To merge the two approaches, you need to debate a Christian Apologist. I am bored with those type of debates, so I do not participate in them.

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Noah, parting the red sea, resurrection…should I continue? Facts please! Evidence?
You question the power of God because of your unbelief. The Jews were given incredible proof in the desert, yet they rebelled. Yet many didn't believe. If you see God's power every day, soon you lose sight of wherefrom that power came.

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Christians think critically when they negotiate a lease for their 335i! But they fail miserably when it comes to more important questions. You wouldn’t vote for anyone that isn’t a Christian fundie!!!
What important questions? You have not participated in interesting Bible studies. Most of the time the way you use the term "critical thinking" it comes across as meaning against all things that are not based on empirical evidence. That is a narrow view of critical thinking. Perhaps a review of what constitutes critical thinking is in order. Critical thinking does not require the scientific method at all.

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More anger…How about this question:
You claim that JC is the son of God and savior. We are all sinners and we’re going to hell if we don’t believe it. Facts? Evidence? Experiments?
If you don't believe there is a God, and you don't believe that you can know him, then there is no basis for a discussion. You can remain an orphan.

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I’ve read it all. It seemed bizarre, morally outdated and cruel. I can support this with facts. We can debate this elsewhere.
When I had just become a teenager, I read the Old Testament. Many of my views about the Old Testament were like yours. If you are closed to revelation, then you cannot understand it. Even if you were to memorize the words that would not give you understanding. For me, it wasn't until I was 21 or 22 years old that I read the New Testament. At that time I was open to revelation. Then the New Testament and the Old Testament both made perfect sense. If you were open to revelation, we may be able to have a discussion of substance on scripture.

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I agree. You are definitely well educated and debate worthy. I’d like to have a beer with you. You are a facts guy when it comes to everything except Christianity.
That could be an interesting talk over a beer, but quiet places are usually where discussions of substance are productive.

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I dismiss “beliefs” that are not supported by evidence, NOT because they are different than mine. I thrive when someone proves me wrong! I just learned something. It must be supported by experimental data though.
You might consider my point about critical thinking. For many different reasons not all matters to ponder are subject to empirical evidence... probably more than are supported by any kind of scientific evidence.

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Anyone can claim anything, and if there are enough people to support it, it becomes mainstream. Scientology comes to mind.
There is plenty that has nothing to do with faith or religion that can be so categorized. Cults are merely one type of example.

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You feel angry because in this day and age it is extremely difficult for the religious to debate science based on facts. It has been a common trait on these debates that Christians become frustrated. I’d be frustrated too if I had to defend extraordinary claims with NO evidence.
I'll speak for myself. I am not frustrated at all. I am at peace.

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I offered this advice to the religious as a face saving escape. Just claim that you “believe” without proof, and stay away from arguments that are based on facts. If you think about it, isn’t religion defined by it? Belief without evidence.
Evidence does not always lead to belief. Many have seen and have heard yet did not believe. It is easier to believe with evidence, but then free will is less available, and the consequences of ignorance are then greater. You would not enter the promised land.

The sheep know their shephard's call. If you are of another flock, you do not follow.

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
e90im, what is it in the real world (not talking philosophy here) that Christians and religious people miss out on that you don't miss out on?
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I don't believe in fairytales. I like them though. But I know they are NOT true. You do.
That's not any answer to the question. This is something you should be able to expound on with great detail and fervor. What is it in the real world (not talking philosophy here) that Christians and religious people miss out on that you don't miss out on?

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Why do you go to a doctor when your kid is sick? Shouldn’t a prayer fix it?
Of course you take the child to the doctor. It is wise to pray as well.

If you were thirsty, you wouldn't need to have a miracle of water coming out of a rock if you could get ice water from the refrigerator door. If you were in a mine-shaft that had caved in and you were thirsty, you might pray for a miracle and that your alternative to water would sustain your life. You would still radio for help if that were working.

Prayer doesn't fix anything. It might bring inner peace. Prayer is communication with God. God will do as he will. At times he will act on our heartfelt desire. But that is not a foregone conclusion. Often, our faith is too small and our sincerity is lacking.
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      03-11-2008, 10:32 AM   #114
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What is it in the real world (not talking philosophy here) that Christians and religious people miss out on that you as an atheist or agnostic don't miss out on?
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      03-11-2008, 08:47 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
If we were debating matters of science then we could debate facts based on science. If we are debating something in scripture, we can debate in the realm of Bible Study, faith, and history.
We are debating how the Universe and physical world we live in works!! One approach is science, the self correcting machinery, critical thinking approach. The other is religion, obedience to authority, no empirical evidence, all based on an ancient book. And to add insult to injury, THERE ARE various religions!!

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
You question the power of God because of your unbelief. The Jews were given incredible proof in the desert, yet they rebelled. Yet many didn't believe. If you see God's power every day, soon you lose sight of wherefrom that power came.
This is fluff statement. Facts, please! What proof? What are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
What important questions? You have not participated in interesting Bible studies. Most of the time the way you use the term "critical thinking" it comes across as meaning against all things that are not based on empirical evidence. That is a narrow view of critical thinking. Perhaps a review of what constitutes critical thinking is in order. Critical thinking does not require the scientific method at all.
What important questions? ??? How about: Laws of Universe, where do we come from, how to get predictable results, what is truth the best we can tell, what’s right not who’s right??????

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
If you don't believe there is a God, and you don't believe that you can know him, then there is no basis for a discussion. You can remain an orphan.
Once again, you loose an argument and you retreat to your Sunday sermon BS. What orphan? How? Why? Facts? Evidence?

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
When I had just become a teenager, I read the Old Testament. Many of my views about the Old Testament were like yours. If you are closed to revelation, then you cannot understand it. Even if you were to memorize the words that would not give you understanding. For me, it wasn't until I was 21 or 22 years old that I read the New Testament. At that time I was open to revelation. Then the New Testament and the Old Testament both made perfect sense. If you were open to revelation, we may be able to have a discussion of substance on scripture.
Open to revelation? What does that mean? If you are gullible, you’ll be open to any claim without evidence!! SCIENTOLOGY DUDE!!!

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
That could be an interesting talk over a beer, but quiet places are usually where discussions of substance are productive.
I’d do it, but I’m worried if you have wide stance….no footsee stuff…
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
You might consider my point about critical thinking. For many different reasons not all matters to ponder are subject to empirical evidence... probably more than are supported by any kind of scientific evidence.
What matters? Be specific!!!

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
There is plenty that has nothing to do with faith or religion that can be so categorized. Cults are merely one type of example.
Cult is just organized religion's offspring.

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Evidence does not always lead to belief. Many have seen and have heard yet did not believe. It is easier to believe with evidence, but then free will is less available, and the consequences of ignorance are then greater. You would not enter the promised land.
What land? Where is it? Facts, please!!! I’m talking physical and empirical evidence. I don’t have to believe in radio waves, but THEY WORK. ALL THE TIME. UNLIKE PRAYER!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
The sheep know their shephard's call. If you are of another flock, you do not follow.
I don’t consider myself a sheep. Do you?

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Of course you take the child to the doctor. It is wise to pray as well.
Why is it wise? Do you have any experimental data to present?
Carl Sagan quote: When prayer doesn’t work, that constitutes data!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
If you were thirsty, you wouldn't need to have a miracle of water coming out of a rock if you could get ice water from the refrigerator door. If you were in a mine-shaft that had caved in and you were thirsty, you might pray for a miracle and that your alternative to water would sustain your life. You would still radio for help if that were working.
Which way of thinking provided us with refrigerator and radio? Religious or scientific?

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Prayer doesn't fix anything. It might bring inner peace. Prayer is communication with God. God will do as he will. At times he will act on our heartfelt desire. But that is not a foregone conclusion. Often, our faith is too small and our sincerity is lacking.
So what’s the difference between God that exist and the one that doesn’t?
Let me try and answer this: Your inner peace.
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      03-12-2008, 05:47 AM   #116
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One common mistake is that people think Evolution has ANYTHING to do with creation. It does not.
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      03-14-2008, 11:07 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by FirstClass View Post
I suppose I can forgive this since I haven't mentioned it in this specific thread, but I will now. (And you may recall it from other threads) Changes in traits and allele frequency is easily proven and I agree it works. What bothers me is that humans, indeed every single organism on this planet came about from a pool of water with some organic compounds floating in it. Chemistry tells us how those compounds were formed on the early Earth, but after that we have no explanation. Let me again remind you that intelligent design doesn't not necessarily refer to God. That phamplet said "creationism" which is but one possibility of intelligent design. It could have been God, or it could have been the black monolith, some alien species, et al.
No need to JUMP to God hypothesis just because at the present time we don't understand something.

It is ignorant, lazy and doesn't solve how Universe works.
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      03-16-2008, 02:31 PM   #118
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No need to JUMP to God hypothesis just because at the present time we don't understand something.

It is ignorant, lazy and doesn't solve how Universe works.
Hey dumb fuck, do you even read my posts? ID != God.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      03-16-2008, 09:02 PM   #119
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Hey dumb fuck, do you even read my posts? ID != God.

What a nice display of Christian values. Dumb fuck is probably your most creative reply. It suites your style. Congrats.
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