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      03-13-2008, 10:16 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
Zeus is not real, only in Disney cartoon figures.
Disney? Zeus/Jupiter existed long before Disney, son. About TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS before...

It's a valid question. There are lots of deities, how do you know that your's is the right one? I have faith that Zeus is the king of all gods. If faith is all it takes, then I must be right, RIGHT?
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      03-13-2008, 10:59 AM   #68
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Nice post, but they just don't get it (and don't want to). They would rather scoff and mock than take the time to learn and be saved. Yet they spend their whole time on the religion threads. Looking for something I guess. You can lead a horse to water......

They want irrefutable proof that there is a God and a Jesus, yet they take the hook when someone says that life on earth originated from dust that landed on earth from somewhere else in the universe and then mankind eventually evolved from bacteria, to pond scum, to a fish, to a lizard, eventually to an ape, and then to a man. And we're the ones they call ignorant and dillusional.
When you put it like this you open my eyes. Your story is more obvius.
Big man i sky form a doll - blow life in doll - take some from first doll to make doll 2. More life. Puts his dolls in a closed garden and play with them. Gets angry with dolls and tell them to fuck off. Now he makes life realy hard for the dolls he used to play with and kill a lot of them (random) - he keep up the good work.
If the now living dolls he created not do what thay are told they are fucked bigtime. God dont like the things he created anymore and leave.
Noone ever seen the man in the sky - he is shy but still - if you dont beleave in this story you can go to hell......
Whats the point? If he wanted to have a bunch of boring people he would have created them that way. So we could all be the same and look up to him which makes him happy (why?)

Much better story. Welcome to insanity.
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      03-13-2008, 11:01 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
Disney? Zeus/Jupiter existed long before Disney, son. About TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS before...

It's a valid question. There are lots of deities, how do you know that your's is the right one? I have faith that Zeus is the king of all gods. If faith is all it takes, then I must be right, RIGHT?
He may be kind of all gods (little g) but not King or God of mankind...

Time frames in the Bible are not the same time frames of our earthly time; time meant nothing to God in numbers of years...therefore, our 1000 yrs is not God's thousand yrs persay....

There is nothing in the biblical story of Noah that says he was on a "sea," rainwater filled the area where he was for 40 days; do you not think than if omnipotent God wanted that boat to float, it would, against all odds put before man; did He not make the lame to walk, the blind to see, the dead to rise again? This feat of floating a boat would hv been easy for Him, as long as Noah had the faith to do exactly what He told him to. We cannot answer the question of exactly how many animals or insects were upon that boat.
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      03-13-2008, 11:09 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
He may be kind of all gods (little g) but not King or God of mankind...

Time frames in the Bible are not the same time frames of our earthly time; time meant nothing to God in numbers of years...therefore, our 1000 yrs is not God's thousand yrs persay....

There is nothing in the biblical story of Noah that says he was on a "sea," rainwater filled the area where he was for 40 days; do you not think than if omnipotent God wanted that boat to float, it would, against all odds put before man; did He not make the lame to walk, the blind to see, the dead to rise again? This feat of floating a boat would hv been easy for Him, as long as Noah had the faith to do exactly what He told him to. We cannot answer the question of exactly how many animals or insects were upon that boat.
Reverend Lovejoy, to Ned Flanders, sickened by Ned's piety: "Have you thought about one of the other major religions? They're they're all pretty much the same."
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      03-13-2008, 01:06 PM   #71
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Religion was invented to answer questions that us curious humans didn't have believable answers to. That's why religion changed so much since our humble societal beginnings, because as we learned, and discovered, we no longer needed our made up myths to satisfy our curiousity.

Let me show you:

Q: Is lightening really shot from the tip of a deity's finger, primarily used to strike down those who disobey or displease him?
A: Nope! It's a function of friction between varying temperatured air currents, and the static electricity built up and released all at once!

Q: Does the sea become stormy and rough when someone angers or displeases the deity that lives and governs it's area?
A: No, sea storms are primarily a function of atmospheric effects!


So now that we've explained waves and lightening, we really don't believe the same things anymore, right? Those belief's didn't die easily though, as generations had based their entire lives on these beliefs. "So you mean I've been sacraficing these white bull's every year to please the gods of agriculture, but the drought is really a function of El Nino?" The religious folk of today suffer the same ailment. It's hard to let go of things that our family, society or lineage placed so much effort, time and spirit into. But like the beliefs of Zeus' lightening, eventually, the slower to react will catch up. Eventually, they'll start to realize that evolution makes a shitload more sense than some bored super-being playing with a terrareum.


What's changed, and will continue to change, is that we keep discovering and learning more, and satisfy our insatiable appetite for the truth - infallible and proven, not theoretical. As reality is revealed, and science continues to advance, we answer questions that were previously attributed to our catch-all called religion. The leaders in this effort in our world, have changed too, as they figured out over the past 2500 years, that simply tossing the unknowns into that basket of "religion" ("Oh, that must be some mystical, omniscient being's doing!") is kind of silly, given that most of the things we attributed to religion since this whole she-bang began, ended up being something much more believable and likely than angry superbeings. When astronomers first witnessed a star "wobble" in their telescope, they decided not to say it was the god of space, Zarqon, playing billiards. They simply didn't create some silly explanetory myth, and went back to work to figure out. Eventually, it turned out the wobble was the gravitational effect on the star from other orbiting masses.

Sorry, Zarqon! and *poof, he's gone.

What's HASN'T changed, is our curiosity and drive to fill in the gaps of our knowledge. Our pursuit to answer the questions doesn't end, and likely won't until we meet our very own end.

The point of all this, is to start getting comfortable with what you don't know. Just because we can't explain exactly how we began, or what happens after we go, simply isn't a good enough reason to invent some silly myth. Historically, we've only dispelled the myths of relgion. We've never once, not ever, decided, "shit, that there discovery proves there actually IS a god!"

Right? Seems to me like over history, science is undefeated against religion.

Next Chapter: To the religious: Why the Bible is a terrible piece of evidence to base your argument on.
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      03-13-2008, 01:18 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
He may be kind of all gods (little g) but not King or God of mankind...

Time frames in the Bible are not the same time frames of our earthly time; time meant nothing to God in numbers of years...therefore, our 1000 yrs is not God's thousand yrs persay....

There is nothing in the biblical story of Noah that says he was on a "sea," rainwater filled the area where he was for 40 days; do you not think than if omnipotent God wanted that boat to float, it would, against all odds put before man; did He not make the lame to walk, the blind to see, the dead to rise again? This feat of floating a boat would hv been easy for Him, as long as Noah had the faith to do exactly what He told him to. We cannot answer the question of exactly how many animals or insects were upon that boat.
so you believe in other deities aside from your "God?" That's a new one!

As for the difference in time, how convenient! I'm sure that the humans that wrote the Bible however, must have known that (considering back then, God spoke directly to the people all the time, right?) Or if they didn't, why would they so arbitrarily make up such a time estimate? Particularly when many of the Old Testament characters lived for many hundreds of years? You claim the Bible speaks to some other place than earth. All the editions I've read (yes, many) all started with Genesis on EARTH, with Earth's scale of time and distance.

As for making the lame walk, the blind see, David Koresh did the same thing. Was he a prophet too? Last I checked, the duped Christians that decided he was Christ re-born, all unquestionably believed in "Him," and witnessed him regularly heal the sick.

What makes their testament any different or less reliable than one passed on via oral tradition for many generations before being written down? Isn't an account recorded direct from the source in 1980 more reliable than 3,000 years of manipulation, exaggeration and personalization? Isn't the Bible, essentially the longest game of telephone ever?
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      03-13-2008, 03:20 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post
Reverend Lovejoy, to Ned Flanders, sickened by Ned's piety: "Have you thought about one of the other major religions? They're they're all pretty much the same."
That is a very much negative; they are not all the same.
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      03-13-2008, 03:44 PM   #74
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so you believe in other deities aside from your "God?" That's a new one!

As for the difference in time, how convenient! I'm sure that the humans that wrote the Bible however, must have known that (considering back then, God spoke directly to the people all the time, right?) Or if they didn't, why would they so arbitrarily make up such a time estimate? Particularly when many of the Old Testament characters lived for many hundreds of years? You claim the Bible speaks to some other place than earth. All the editions I've read (yes, many) all started with Genesis on EARTH, with Earth's scale of time and distance.

As for making the lame walk, the blind see, David Koresh did the same thing. Was he a prophet too? Last I checked, the duped Christians that decided he was Christ re-born, all unquestionably believed in "Him," and witnessed him regularly heal the sick.

What makes their testament any different or less reliable than one passed on via oral tradition for many generations before being written down? Isn't an account recorded direct from the source in 1980 more reliable than 3,000 years of manipulation, exaggeration and personalization? Isn't the Bible, essentially the longest game of telephone ever?
I never deny there are other gods besides a Holy God; there are many gods that people worship including statues in other religions; money & fame on earth are gods in themselves; anything that you put before an almighty God you can count as a god;

As for David Koresh; that's a new one on me; I never knew he made the blind to see or the lame to walk; this is a case where people seeking "religion" not faith are like those that follow TV evangelist; they have not studied or read the Bible enough to know false gods from the real thing.

Some bible scholars believe that the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible which contains the laws) were written by Moses. That being said, if you read the Old Testament, do you ever question how so many years before Christ's birth & death, it was prophesied of his coming, of John the Baptists coming, and even the end of the world. These OT books were written long before Paul, Peter, Joseph, Mary, Jesus, Judah, etc. were ever born and who fulfilled the OT prophesies in the NT. It all fell into place.

The intricate details of the OT & NT and completion of each book could not possibly been written without divine intervention. No writer on earth could be this perfect in writing a novel or book of this length without mistakes.
When you speak of man writing this book, don't you think that when man, or more than one man, got involved in trying to construct this book, there would have been so many errors from one chapter or book to another; only under the divine hand of God could these records have been written with such precision.

As far as believing there are other places than earth; yes, I believe there are other places than earth; our solar system is full of other planets, the mormons even believe they're going to go to one ????; but I also know there is a heaven, and a hell. Just because we can't see it, feel it, or touch it; doesn't mean it's not there.
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      03-13-2008, 03:44 PM   #75
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Noa was on the boat. Who wrote the bible then?
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      03-13-2008, 04:50 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
The intricate details of the OT & NT and completion of each book could not possibly been written without divine intervention. No writer on earth could be this perfect in writing a novel or book of this length without mistakes.
When you speak of man writing this book, don't you think that when man, or more than one man, got involved in trying to construct this book, there would have been so many errors from one chapter or book to another; only under the divine hand of God could these records have been written with such precision.

As far as believing there are other places than earth; yes, I believe there are other places than earth; our solar system is full of other planets, the mormons even believe they're going to go to one ????; but I also know there is a heaven, and a hell. Just because we can't see it, feel it, or touch it; doesn't mean it's not there .
There are only 8 planets in our solar system.
It is very interesting how you find Mormon belief foolish, and not yours. Both are based on ZERO evidence, no?

I also have a Ferrari to sell you. It's in my garage, and just because you can't see it, feel it or touch it, it doesn't mean it's not there. Price? A real bargain, and I accept paypal.
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      03-13-2008, 05:19 PM   #77
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I The intricate details of the OT & NT and completion of each book could not possibly been written without divine intervention.
this is a lot like my religion. You should check it out. I think my religion has a little bit more basis in reality than Christianity, but to each his own I suppose.

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/
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      03-13-2008, 05:26 PM   #78
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There are only 8 planets in our solar system.
It is very interesting how you find Mormon belief foolish, and not yours. Both are based on ZERO evidence, no?

I also have a Ferrari to sell you. It's in my garage, and just because you can't see it, feel it or touch it, it doesn't mean it's not there. Price? A real bargain, and I accept paypal.
mormonism is a cult; it is not Biblical; it truly is founded on the heresy of a man, John Smith; they hv a Bible and they speak of Jesus but not my Jesus nor my Bible; totally different; they believe in realms of salvation and going from one realm to another after death; marriage after death, salvation after death....totally cultish
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      03-13-2008, 05:27 PM   #79
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Noa was on the boat. Who wrote the bible then?
???? don't understand???
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      03-13-2008, 10:25 PM   #80
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mormonism is a cult; it is not Biblical; it truly is founded on the heresy of a man, John Smith; they hv a Bible and they speak of Jesus but not my Jesus nor my Bible; totally different; they believe in realms of salvation and going from one realm to another after death; marriage after death, salvation after death....totally cultish
You discredit mormonism for being "cultish" then seperate Christianity, a religion based in dozens upon dozens of cults departing from both pagan and hebrew culture?

You realize your Christianity of today was the epitome of cults at its genesis, right?


Blessed is His Noodley Appendage!

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      03-14-2008, 12:05 PM   #81
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You discredit mormonism for being "cultish" then seperate Christianity, a religion based in dozens upon dozens of cults departing from both pagan and hebrew culture?

You realize your Christianity of today was the epitome of cults at its genesis, right?


Blessed is His Noodley Appendage!

I have no idea where that came from; my Christianity did not come out of a "cult;" yes, there are many evidences in the Bible of cult-like or idol worshiping people throughout but it was never under the authority of almighty God.

The cults as you call them were used as illustrations of how idol worshipers, blasphemers, and sexual immorality played a part in luring people away from God for their gratification. They were not a part of Christian worship. God dealt with them in their time; and He will deal with them in today's world in His timing.
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      03-14-2008, 12:28 PM   #82
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my Christianity did not come out of a "cult;"
Ahhh, check your history. The beginings of Christianity, shortly after the passing of Christ, include over a dozen feuding cults, many led by power hungry apostles, who interpreted the teachings of Christ very differently, each amassing a following into varying small sects.

The Dead Sea scrolls, the non-canonical gospels (including Judas and Thomas) and the history up until Nicaea are the time when Christianity formed as we know it, and the stronger sects gained momentum over the weaker ones. The varying sects often fought and accused each other of heresy in their "misinterpretation" of Christ's teachgins. What we're left with in the New Testament is simply the surviving pieces deemed most useful in governing the people of the Holy Roman Empire, when the faith was converted and alterred to best suit those in power, and to govern the masses. That's why the canonical gospels of Luke & Matthew are actually just rewritten version (some 40 years later) of Mark's text from 60AD. Constantine used the texts that supported a massive Church, rather than the gospels THomas and Judas, which emphasized Christ's teachings AWAY from a central Church.

Start reading about the Apostolic Age. I'm never surprised that as an agnostic, my discussions with the religious often expose major gaps in the believer's very own understanding of their faith.

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      03-14-2008, 10:56 PM   #83
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mormonism is a cult; it is not Biblical; it truly is founded on the heresy of a man, John Smith; they hv a Bible and they speak of Jesus but not my Jesus nor my Bible; totally different; they believe in realms of salvation and going from one realm to another after death; marriage after death, salvation after death....totally cultish
Just because your book is older than theirs, it doesn't make it any more true.

It's a man made book re-written many times and based on anecdotal evidence.
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      03-15-2008, 12:34 PM   #84
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Just because your book is older than theirs, it doesn't make it any more true.

It's a man made book re-written many times and based on anecdotal evidence.
The Book of Mormon is not a Holy Bible; it is filled with cultish rituals that mormons believe in that have no biblical background whatsoever; I have several very dear friends who profess the mormon faith and are dear sweet people; very devout in their faith; I hv been to lectures by a gentleman who is now a Christian who was raised in the mormon faith by devout parents; he agrees it is a cult..they denounce Jesus as the Son of God and profess Him to only be a prophet like their leader who never was a prophet.

I know a family well in our area who had a teenage daughter murdered in high school; most precious family & child; after her death, because they don't believe single women can go to heaven, they married her to someone in the church "after her death." They baptize people "after their death," which is not biblical. They wear "holy underwear," go figure....They are required to have a one year storage allotment of certain things, including gas & food; I'd hate to have to keep a year's worth of gas right now...I could go on and on but what's the use...You would argue til the sun comes up. There are differences in religious faiths; some are scriptural and some are cults.

I choose to believe the Bible as it is written; I realize there were books removed from the Bible in early days; those that were felt to have no Godly inspirational or doctrine. I place my faith on the Bible as it is today; and I also know that we don't always understand exactly what some of the scripture means but because it was meant as a guideline for our lives and because I love the Lord, I read and study it.

That is not to say that there are many people who practice false religions or no religion at all that are not very good people. People who do much for humanity and live a respectable life. But, the Lord tells us if they do not accept Him as Lord and Savior and recognize that we are born into sin (through Adam & Eve), we will not entered into the kingdom of heaven. That being said, you don't believe in the Bible and there isn't really anything anyone can do about that except profess the gospel to you. What you do from there on out is your business. He only tells me that I must go & tell the gospel, you will make your own choice.
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      03-15-2008, 01:32 PM   #85
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The Book of Mormon is not a Holy Bible; it is filled with cultish rituals
Filled with Cultish rituals?




Like burning palms and rubbing the ashes on your forehead on Palm Sunday?

Like drinking wine spiritually converted to the blood of Jesus?

Like eating bread spiritually converted to the body of Christ?

Like using water to spiritually cleanse one's soul?

Like burying the dead?

Like burning candles and inscense?

Like priests wearing robes and stoles?

Like channelling the power of the Lord into a blessing?

Like praying to a statue, or a figure of a man nailed to a cross?





Anything like that?

Last edited by AWD Addict; 03-15-2008 at 01:32 PM. Reason: I'm not a mormon, by the way
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      03-15-2008, 06:28 PM   #86
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The Book of Mormon is not a Holy Bible; it is filled with cultish rituals that mormons believe in that have no biblical background whatsoever; I have several very dear friends who profess the mormon faith and are dear sweet people; very devout in their faith; I hv been to lectures by a gentleman who is now a Christian who was raised in the mormon faith by devout parents; he agrees it is a cult..they denounce Jesus as the Son of God and profess Him to only be a prophet like their leader who never was a prophet.

I know a family well in our area who had a teenage daughter murdered in high school; most precious family & child; after her death, because they don't believe single women can go to heaven, they married her to someone in the church "after her death." They baptize people "after their death," which is not biblical. They wear "holy underwear," go figure....They are required to have a one year storage allotment of certain things, including gas & food; I'd hate to have to keep a year's worth of gas right now...I could go on and on but what's the use...You would argue til the sun comes up. There are differences in religious faiths; some are scriptural and some are cults.

I choose to believe the Bible as it is written; I realize there were books removed from the Bible in early days; those that were felt to have no Godly inspirational or doctrine. I place my faith on the Bible as it is today; and I also know that we don't always understand exactly what some of the scripture means but because it was meant as a guideline for our lives and because I love the Lord, I read and study it.

That is not to say that there are many people who practice false religions or no religion at all that are not very good people. People who do much for humanity and live a respectable life. But, the Lord tells us if they do not accept Him as Lord and Savior and recognize that we are born into sin (through Adam & Eve), we will not entered into the kingdom of heaven. That being said, you don't believe in the Bible and there isn't really anything anyone can do about that except profess the gospel to you. What you do from there on out is your business. He only tells me that I must go & tell the gospel, you will make your own choice.


I choose NOT to practice process of NOT thinking called faith.
Your rituals are as bizarre as theirs.

Same crap, different package.

And what exactly happens in the kingdom of heaven? Please elaborate?
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      03-15-2008, 08:48 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I choose NOT to practice process of NOT thinking called faith.
Your rituals are as bizarre as theirs.

Same crap, different package.

And what exactly happens in the kingdom of heaven? Please elaborate?
You have a new home; no more sadness, ill health, etc. and are join your family members that went ahead of you if they had salvation; I look forward to seeing my parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents;

I cannot help but wonder if you are young or middle aged; have you ever had any crises in your life that you needed to draw strength from a greater power? I don't know how I could handle some of those crisis times without my Lord to give me strength and my church family to support me. I've had to care for ailing parents, watch them die; I've had other things much closer to me like the armed robbery of my hubby & I that I mentioned on another thread; children that have given me problems in the past. When everything is going great and you have nothing to devastate you, then, it is much easier to say "I'll do it myself."

Our total purpose on this earth is to spread the gospel of Christ to as many as we can and to love one another as Christ loved the church (enough to die for it). The church is not a "building" but a group of people that meet for worship in His name. What practices do we as Christians have that you feel are so bizarre?
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      03-15-2008, 11:15 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
You have a new home; no more sadness, ill health, etc. and are join your family members that went ahead of you if they had salvation; I look forward to seeing my parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents;

I cannot help but wonder if you are young or middle aged; have you ever had any crises in your life that you needed to draw strength from a greater power? I don't know how I could handle some of those crisis times without my Lord to give me strength and my church family to support me. I've had to care for ailing parents, watch them die; I've had other things much closer to me like the armed robbery of my hubby & I that I mentioned on another thread; children that have given me problems in the past. When everything is going great and you have nothing to devastate you, then, it is much easier to say "I'll do it myself."

Our total purpose on this earth is to spread the gospel of Christ to as many as we can and to love one another as Christ loved the church (enough to die for it). The church is not a "building" but a group of people that meet for worship in His name. What practices do we as Christians have that you feel are so bizarre?
Here is one question I have asked e90im a few times without much of an answer:
e90im, what is it in the real world (not talking philosophy here) that Christians and religious people miss out on that you don't miss out on?
It appears that he doesn't want to give a real answer.
  • Though I don't know it, I suspect that e90im is of Asian descent and that although he knows English pretty well, it is his second language.
  • His age is in the range of mid-twenties to mid-thirties.
  • He lives in moral relativism and therefore he must not believe in God because it would mean he would have to answer to a higher power for what he is doing.
  • He had a taste of religion, but never had faith. The religion didn't give him what he wanted, so he quickly abandoned it.
  • He fell back on the secular teachings he had received as a student and from television.
  • He reads what appeals to the secularist views he holds.
  • If well presented, he will believe the words of a scientist whether that scientist is wrong or not.
  • When a better scientific theory is presented, he will sometimes dismiss the first theory in favor of the second and not question himself as to why he believed the first. After all, everything is relative.
  • He thinks he is analytical and superior.
  • He may have been involved in a cult, perhaps satanic, but found that to be unsatisfying, He didn't hate God enough to continue.
  • He finds it easier to deny God than to accept him.
  • He is ashamed and would not discuss the details of his failings with anyone, especially not Christians.
Most of these impressions are probably wrong, but I would be surprised if e90im would reveal much of himself.
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