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      03-13-2008, 10:52 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
It's your choice of course, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. If I'm wrong and it turns out there is no supreme being it's not like there's going to be anyone to tell me "I told you so" , but if I'm right...
So you choose to believe in something nobody has any evidence of whether it exists or not, blindly on the fact that one day you could be right and he does exist and wont punish you b/c you decided not to eat fish on a sunday??



Man has and always will be insignificant in this world. Unfortunately, man's ego is such that we require justifying our presence in this world by creating fictional religions and events which took place in the past. We further attempt at 'proving' these theories based on books that have long been manipulated by countless people, which were never written by the individuals known as 'profits' today. Man needs to feel important, man wants to feel superior in comparison with the other creatures we share this space with. Therefore, perhaps we would like to make ourselves feel more significant by performing rituals or acts which may please 'god/allah/jehova etc'?

Believing bilndly in anything is exactly what individuals do in backwards a$$ed countries like Iraq/Afghanistan. They follow their religious leaders blindly based on what they are told. They have an excuse....they are unedcuated, what about us living in first world countries who have a literacy rate >75% and an education? Are we supposed to be just as narrow minded and naive as they are? Theres a reason why we have roads, schools, jobs, money, cars...and I promise you its not because there are virgins waiting for those who strap bombs to their chests...



What is my opinion on the matter? A 'higher being' does exist..call it God or whatever you like, but this being which created the sun, moon, stars and everything else we see does not require attention from us. We are such a self centered creature that we feel this higher power requires our prayers at night, feel the need not to eat pork and fish on sundays and that the 10 commandments are the end all rules for the universe...

ask yourself the question

"What has religion done for mankind? How has it helped mankind develop or move forward? How has it made things easier for us? What benefit has religion provided mankind?"

Scientists have done more for humanity than any religion ever has or will do. Most scientists (great minds from 17th-19th centuries) had no belief in god, which is interesting. Scientists and those great minds have made life easier for humanity, in terms of medicine, physics, math and the list goes on and on...

I really cant think of anything...other than war, death, corruption...of course this is not the fault of religions, it is the fault of humans. Until humans can stop using religion for self gain and benefit...religion will always be exactly what it is today, a floater. You flush and flush, but it just wont go down and keeps coming back to the top...
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      03-13-2008, 10:57 AM   #46
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This picture here helps me come to terms with reality. We are nothing but a spec of dust in this larger universe. How large is the universe? Anybody know?? Its said to be infinite...can anybody here even comprehend ANYTHING thats INFINITE!!!???? As most of you know, a human is not even visible from space......Everytime you think about GOD and religion, look at these pics below and remember...your nothign but a spec of dust....helps put things in perspective...











I am sure we are noticed in an infinite universe, where the possibiliy exists that there are another 100 solar systems with 100 other plant earths thinking/wondering exactly what we are...
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      03-13-2008, 11:06 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
As a secretary to an entomologist, I have often heard him say, "he could not understand how anyone watching the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a beautiful butterfly could claim to be an atheist."
I honestly fail to see any arguments here! What is your point? I'm not being sarcastic.
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      03-13-2008, 12:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by pdjafari View Post
This picture here helps me come to terms with reality. We are nothing but a spec of dust in this larger universe. How large is the universe? Anybody know?? Its said to be infinite...can anybody here even comprehend ANYTHING thats INFINITE!!!???? As most of you know, a human is not even visible from space......Everytime you think about GOD and religion, look at these pics below and remember...your nothign but a spec of dust....helps put things in perspective...











I am sure we are noticed in an infinite universe, where the possibiliy exists that there are another 100 solar systems with 100 other plant earths thinking/wondering exactly what we are...
That's exactly what God told Abraham about his "sons" or "family", that He would give him children that numbered the stars in the sky and the sand grains in the sea; meaning those that came after him who kept his faith would belong to him. He did not understand what God meant at the time, just like we don't understand some things today. We are but a speck on this earth while we're here and when we leave yet God tells us we are the apple of His eye. He loves us above all others; even our wives, husbands, children.
Nothing grieves Him more than to lose one of His children. We can never comprehend this in earthly terms.
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      03-13-2008, 12:45 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I honestly fail to see any arguments here! What is your point? I'm not being sarcastic.
This transition from worm to butterfly is nothing short of miraculous just like the forming and birth of a new born infant; miracles are performed by none other than holy God who spat upon the ground to form Adam. Someone on one of the forums said he should have dirt in his veins, not blood. What do you suppose dirt is made up of? Minerals of which are found in our blood; which we cannot live without a one of them.
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      03-13-2008, 12:52 PM   #50
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I like this argument...


"There are at least 2 objective, yet certain ways to know God exists. The first is through his Creation. Imagine finding a new, hi-tech watch in a forest. There would be no doubt in your mind that it was created, though you have never seen anything like it before. Thanks to the electron microscope, we now know that a single living human cell is FAR more complex than the most modern factory. Creation of life, now is obvious - especially to experts in biochemistry. This necessitates a Creator (God). But you donít need a degree in molecular biology or quantum physics. The Bible says Creation by God has been obvious since the beginning of time... that we are "without excuse" [Rom 1:20]."
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      03-13-2008, 01:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
That's exactly what God told Abraham about his "sons" or "family", that He would give him children that numbered the stars in the sky and the sand grains in the sea; meaning those that came after him who kept his faith would belong to him. He did not understand what God meant at the time, just like we don't understand some things today. We are but a speck on this earth while we're here and when we leave yet God tells us we are the apple of His eye. He loves us above all others; even our wives, husbands, children.
Nothing grieves Him more than to lose one of His children. We can never comprehend this in earthly terms.

I understand where your trying to go with this. There will always be things we as humans cannot comprehend, our brains are not sophisticated enough to and perhaps its for the best. However, how can one scientifically and understanding the laws of physics explain how Moses parted the Red Sea??
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      03-13-2008, 01:39 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
I too have thought about all of those horrible things and about the possibility of life elsewhere. The only answer I have come up with is that God is really an extension of everything in this universe and whatever else is out there besides this universe. God created everything as a sort of sensory experiment. He feels our pain and has empathy but is bound by his own laws to not interfere in the "program".

I came up with this notion one night when I was staring at my fish tank. I have one fish who likes to nip at one of the other's fins and gills. He was really starting to annoy the fish and myself in the process. What was I supposed to do though? Take the fish out and isolate him from his kin? Or maybe kill the fish? Neither would be fair to any of the fish. I was also a little curious about why he was doing it and decided to wait and watch the outcome. For all intents and purposes I might as well have been God at that point to the fish. I was able to alter their destinies, I had their very lives in my hand. Now that was done on pure will power and curiosity but imagine if I had the power to create matter or bend space-time.

I would not be able to control what I did (on purpose or accidentally) so I would put in "safeguards" to protect from my meddling. Of course I could always remove those safeguards at any time, but that would mean that there was no such thing as free will and that I have not truely accomplished anything but created a bunch of pre-programmed robots which had no free will of their own. I think God wants to experience all that we are, all that we were and all that we will become. I think the main experience he wants to experience is love, but humans gained all these extra emotions and there was no way to control them without interfering with free will. So he takes the good and takes the bad and takes them all and there he has...the facts of life.

As far as aliens, yeah, why would humans be the only being? Just because the bible says so? Meh, gotta take that book with a grain of salt...
I have to disagree with you here. Of course you are not God but that's a different topic that others have attacked. My point is you didn't create the fish. And the 1 fish isn't annoying or hurting just 1 other fish. In my example (WWII) The one fish inspires a few fish to kill off millions and millions of fish. No that just doesn't make sense to me....

On a different topic I am also not a believer in organized religion. What kind of group takes money for those that have none or close to none just to build giant gaudy buildings filled and painted with gold? That's a scam! If they were really selfless they would build the cheapest building to hold as many members as possible and take in only enough money to pay for their staff and help those in need.
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      03-13-2008, 01:43 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by pdjafari View Post
"What has religion done for mankind? How has it helped mankind develop or move forward? How has it made things easier for us? What benefit has religion provided mankind?"

Scientists have done more for humanity than any religion ever has or will do. Most scientists (great minds from 17th-19th centuries) had no belief in god, which is interesting. Scientists and those great minds have made life easier for humanity, in terms of medicine, physics, math and the list goes on and on...

I really cant think of anything...other than war, death, corruption...of course this is not the fault of religions, it is the fault of humans. Until humans can stop using religion for self gain and benefit...religion will always be exactly what it is today, a floater. You flush and flush, but it just wont go down and keeps coming back to the top...
I think I'd argue that Wars have helped technology. Most of our inventions do come from the military. Aside from that I'd agree. And btw I don't think those inventions are worth the billions of lives they have cost.
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      03-13-2008, 03:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by pdjafari View Post
I understand where your trying to go with this. There will always be things we as humans cannot comprehend, our brains are not sophisticated enough to and perhaps its for the best. However, how can one scientifically and understanding the laws of physics explain how Moses parted the Red Sea??
There was a scientific experiment by man to create the possibility of how this happened & it was on a TV special like NG or something showing that could recreate such a phenomenon; however, mortal man cannot always re-create what only the almighty God can do; that's our downfall; basic everything on the ability of man to do these things and not God who can do all things. There are millions of men, millions of "gods" but only one God.
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      03-13-2008, 04:05 PM   #55
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^^Damn that sounds like a 5 percent propoganda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nat...ods_and_Earths
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      03-13-2008, 04:23 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
He loves us above all others; even our wives, husbands, children.
OK, let me try to understand this one.

God loves YOU above all others.
God loves your husband above all others.

He must be BS-ing one of you two then.
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      03-13-2008, 04:48 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by pdjafari View Post
So you choose to believe in something nobody has any evidence of whether it exists or not, blindly on the fact that one day you could be right and he does exist and wont punish you b/c you decided not to eat fish on a sunday??



Man has and always will be insignificant in this world. Unfortunately, man's ego is such that we require justifying our presence in this world by creating fictional religions and events which took place in the past. We further attempt at 'proving' these theories based on books that have long been manipulated by countless people, which were never written by the individuals known as 'profits' today. Man needs to feel important, man wants to feel superior in comparison with the other creatures we share this space with. Therefore, perhaps we would like to make ourselves feel more significant by performing rituals or acts which may please 'god/allah/jehova etc'?

Believing bilndly in anything is exactly what individuals do in backwards a$$ed countries like Iraq/Afghanistan. They follow their religious leaders blindly based on what they are told. They have an excuse....they are unedcuated, what about us living in first world countries who have a literacy rate >75% and an education? Are we supposed to be just as narrow minded and naive as they are? Theres a reason why we have roads, schools, jobs, money, cars...and I promise you its not because there are virgins waiting for those who strap bombs to their chests...
pdjafari - you might want to keep your discriminations in check. Islam is a peaceful religion just as most of the other major religions are. Although I am not an Islam I certainly know those that wish to do us harm are the minority in the religion. Religious zealots. Every religion has them (see KKK and Hitler's army) and they stand for the worst twisted part of any religion. I certainly hope you aren't saying that you think all of Islam is like this. It certainly has nothing to do with $ and I hope you are not insinuating that if they had money they wouldn't be Islamic.
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      03-13-2008, 05:41 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
OK, let me try to understand this one.

God loves YOU above all others.
God loves your husband above all others.

He must be BS-ing one of you two then.
You misunderstood what I meant; I mean that He loves us more than our wives, husbands, children, parents love us; His love is even greater than theirs for us;
God loves all mankind; ALL; even those who refuse to believe in Him; even you;
It is His greatest desire for you to come to the saving knowledge of Him, to understand that we are "born" into sin, cause by our lineage down from Adam and Eve. The only thing God ask you to do is acknowlege your sin nature, recognize that Jesus was sent to take away the sins of the world by dying on the cross, accepting His resurrection death and ascension into heaven.
He says, I go and prepare a place for YOU, and I will come again, receive you (the saved) unto myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

If and when you as a child of God (and you are a child of God) have come to hear this salvation message and you refuse to acknowledge Him; that is the greatest sin you can commit; above all others. There will be a time (at the Tribulation Period) when you will not have the opportunity of accepting Him; if you have already known of His coming & rebuked Him; He won't allow you the opportunity during the Tribulation Period; only those that have never heard the gospel.
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      03-13-2008, 05:51 PM   #59
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i love religous arguments........they go nowhere...just like religion
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      03-13-2008, 06:01 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
You misunderstood what I meant; I mean that He loves us more than our wives, husbands, children, parents love us; His love is even greater than theirs for us;
God loves all mankind; ALL; even those who refuse to believe in Him; even you;
It is His greatest desire for you to come to the saving knowledge of Him, to understand that we are "born" into sin, cause by our lineage down from Adam and Eve. The only thing God ask you to do is acknowlege your sin nature, recognize that Jesus was sent to take away the sins of the world by dying on the cross, accepting His resurrection death and ascension into heaven.
He says, I go and prepare a place for YOU, and I will come again, receive you (the saved) unto myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

If and when you as a child of God (and you are a child of God) have come to hear this salvation message and you refuse to acknowledge Him; that is the greatest sin you can commit; above all others. There will be a time (at the Tribulation Period) when you will not have the opportunity of accepting Him; if you have already known of His coming & rebuked Him; He won't allow you the opportunity during the Tribulation Period; only those that have never heard the gospel.
I'm sorry was the question to prove the existence of God or to prove Christianity? I thought we were proving God here not Christian text. Or is this a Christ only discussion?
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      03-13-2008, 07:35 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
This transition from worm to butterfly is nothing short of miraculous just like the forming and birth of a new born infant; miracles are performed by none other than holy God who spat upon the ground to form Adam. Someone on one of the forums said he should have dirt in his veins, not blood. What do you suppose dirt is made up of? Minerals of which are found in our blood; which we cannot live without a one of them.
WOW, no help here...
Gone beyond any recovery...
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      03-13-2008, 07:46 PM   #62
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I guess one would have to define what "God" is before one could prove or disprove if "God" exists.. Some folks have different ideas of what "God" is.

Trying to prove that "God" exists is like trying to prove that "love" exists.. Then again the old saying "God is love".
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      03-13-2008, 09:43 PM   #63
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I guess one would have to define what "God" is before one could prove or disprove if "God" exists.. Some folks have different ideas of what "God" is.

Trying to prove that "God" exists is like trying to prove that "love" exists.. Then again the old saying "God is love".
Yes, I intentionally left it open-ended in that respect b/c if someone, anyone, claims that their God exists, I want to see the tangible proof.
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      03-13-2008, 10:35 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bartman32 View Post
pdjafari - you might want to keep your discriminations in check. Islam is a peaceful religion just as most of the other major religions are. Although I am not an Islam I certainly know those that wish to do us harm are the minority in the religion. Religious zealots. Every religion has them (see KKK and Hitler's army) and they stand for the worst twisted part of any religion. I certainly hope you aren't saying that you think all of Islam is like this. It certainly has nothing to do with $ and I hope you are not insinuating that if they had money they wouldn't be Islamic.
keep my discrimations in check?? I discriminate against every and all religions. I am merely spewing my opinion, if you dont like it, skim over my posts

I am muslim (theres no such thing as 'Is an Islam...) so I know what I am talking about. Regardless, I discriminate the same against all religions and people who blindly follow them. Not just religion, people who follow any ideology or belief w/o knowing WHY don't deserve a place in this world, I'll let Darwins theories take care of that problem.

Religion is the same as politics, they both make an attempt at manipulating people towards there side, and in the end for self gain. Most if not all the major religious leaders are well off, much moreso than the general population. Same goes for politicians...except politicians dont FORCE their ways upon people (at least in a 'real' democracy)...

My point is simple, religion IN MY OPINION is peoples way of controlling the masses in order to further develop oneself...at least politicians do some good by building roads, schools...
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      03-13-2008, 11:04 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdjafari View Post
My point is simple, religion IN MY OPINION is peoples way of controlling the masses in order to further develop oneself...at least politicians do some good by building roads, schools...
Man, i need to save this quote...

good job
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      03-13-2008, 11:18 PM   #66
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Just for the record since I'm the OP, I believe there is a God...I just can't prove God exists.
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