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      03-12-2008, 11:00 AM   #23
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Can anyone prove that he doesn't exist?

Point me to the evidence, please.
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      03-12-2008, 05:27 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
You're right none of the above absolutely certainly proves there is some higher intelligence that has helped shape this universe, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty good I think.

I don't think evolution is a mark against a higher power, in-fact I think it's a mark for one. If I were to create a sentient willful being wouldn't I want it to build upon experiences of past species in order to allow it to survive and thrive? However perfect DNA is, some of the genetic coding can only be accomplished with time.

Our ancestors used to be reptiles, in-fact when we are in utero we still exhibit a reptilian like tail. Our brains also contain a reptilian portion (responsible for some emotions, autonomic functions and sex drives). Over the past hundred million years the human brain has had bulding blocks added to it over and over again. It now helps process our daily life, give meaning to our thoughts, has helped us create language , art and science.

The same case can be made for DNA. It is a nearly perfect form with the perfect chemical composition. Every living thing on this world uses DNA. Ask yourself this, why with all of our technology can we not create a being from scratch? Why can't we make our own DNA molecule from amino acids in a lightning chamber and clone them and then set them off to make a being? Sure we can clone sheep and manipulate DNA but we cannot and never will be able to create DNA from nothing.

And where did it come from? Do you really buy the fact that over billions of years atoms formed molecules which spontaneously formed complex amino acids which then spontaneously formed single celled organisms which then formed DNA? I know of a few billion atoms that have done nothing but be the same boring atoms they always have been since the beginning of the universe. Why did only a small percentage grow from a state of homestasis to essentially a state of entropy?

Why is there life at all in the universe? Life does not benefit the universe. It would happily keep going if there were no such thing as life, yet it exists and thrives. And why isn't there life on the sun (I'm assuming there isn't)? The sun has the same atoms and molecules that are here on earth. Why over the past billions of years has there been no life there? Surely if there is life here there must be life everywhere right?

I akin the likelyhood of an omnipitent being to an advanced computer programmer or architect. As a programmer you set the boundaries, the protocols/rules and the use cases down in the beginning and watch the program run. You don't sit and watch every bit or byte flow by and check that it is in compliance with what the program does, you just trust that the program boundaries were correct in the first place. So too, if there is a God he has set the rules of this universe. Gravity, carbon based life, water, all the atoms we could ever need, plants that cure us of illness, DNA, evolution, etc.



Scientists are slowly coming to the realization that the physical universe we live in is much more complex and difficult to understand than once thought. Gone are the good old days where E=Mc2. Cosmologists are at the forefront of some very exciting theories and discoveries that are literally so bizarre that they would warp the mind of even Einstein. Here is an example; http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/sc...n.html?ei=5087


The ability to prove there is a God is like trying to prove anything. I can not prove that an apple falls from a tree, I can only prove that I perceive that the apple falls. You cannot prove that gravity really exists because you can make several cases in which it does not. Bottom line is that if you base your faith on science your beliefs will change as often as their theories do.

Is it OK to withhold judgment on God's existence until there is physical evidence?
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      03-12-2008, 05:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by GH32335i View Post
Can anyone prove that he doesn't exist?

Point me to the evidence, please.

You made the claim that it exist. You MUST provide EVIDENCE.
Do you really read these posts and think, or just post randomly?


If I claim that there is a fire breathing dragon living in my garage, why would you have to prove that there isn't??? I must prove first that there is, otherwise my claim is worthless. Capishe?
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      03-12-2008, 05:32 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Is it OK to withhold judgment on God's existence until there is physical evidence?
Does God exist in a physical nature? It should be able to come in physical form but perhaps it chooses not to. We'll never prove or disprove the existence of God unless you accept current religious views.
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      03-12-2008, 05:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by D0WNxiSH1FT View Post
Does God exist in a physical nature? It should be able to come in physical form but perhaps it chooses not to. We'll never prove or disprove the existence of God unless you accept current religious views.
Good point.
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      03-12-2008, 06:05 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by D0WNxiSH1FT View Post
Does God exist in a physical nature? It should be able to come in physical form but perhaps it chooses not to. We'll never prove or disprove the existence of God unless you accept current religious views.
Physical nature? As opposed to what?

What is the difference between not being able to prove something exists and the non-existing?
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      03-12-2008, 06:23 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
You're right none of the above absolutely certainly proves there is some higher intelligence that has helped shape this universe, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty good I think.

I don't think evolution is a mark against a higher power, in-fact I think it's a mark for one. If I were to create a sentient willful being wouldn't I want it to build upon experiences of past species in order to allow it to survive and thrive? However perfect DNA is, some of the genetic coding can only be accomplished with time.

Our ancestors used to be reptiles, in-fact when we are in utero we still exhibit a reptilian like tail. Our brains also contain a reptilian portion (responsible for some emotions, autonomic functions and sex drives). Over the past hundred million years the human brain has had bulding blocks added to it over and over again. It now helps process our daily life, give meaning to our thoughts, has helped us create language , art and science.

The same case can be made for DNA. It is a nearly perfect form with the perfect chemical composition. Every living thing on this world uses DNA. Ask yourself this, why with all of our technology can we not create a being from scratch? Why can't we make our own DNA molecule from amino acids in a lightning chamber and clone them and then set them off to make a being? Sure we can clone sheep and manipulate DNA but we cannot and never will be able to create DNA from nothing.

And where did it come from? Do you really buy the fact that over billions of years atoms formed molecules which spontaneously formed complex amino acids which then spontaneously formed single celled organisms which then formed DNA? I know of a few billion atoms that have done nothing but be the same boring atoms they always have been since the beginning of the universe. Why did only a small percentage grow from a state of homestasis to essentially a state of entropy?

Why is there life at all in the universe? Life does not benefit the universe. It would happily keep going if there were no such thing as life, yet it exists and thrives. And why isn't there life on the sun (I'm assuming there isn't)? The sun has the same atoms and molecules that are here on earth. Why over the past billions of years has there been no life there? Surely if there is life here there must be life everywhere right?

I akin the likelyhood of an omnipitent being to an advanced computer programmer or architect. As a programmer you set the boundaries, the protocols/rules and the use cases down in the beginning and watch the program run. You don't sit and watch every bit or byte flow by and check that it is in compliance with what the program does, you just trust that the program boundaries were correct in the first place. So too, if there is a God he has set the rules of this universe. Gravity, carbon based life, water, all the atoms we could ever need, plants that cure us of illness, DNA, evolution, etc.



Scientists are slowly coming to the realization that the physical universe we live in is much more complex and difficult to understand than once thought. Gone are the good old days where E=Mc2. Cosmologists are at the forefront of some very exciting theories and discoveries that are literally so bizarre that they would warp the mind of even Einstein. Here is an example; http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/sc...n.html?ei=5087


The ability to prove there is a God is like trying to prove anything. I can not prove that an apple falls from a tree, I can only prove that I perceive that the apple falls. You cannot prove that gravity really exists because you can make several cases in which it does not. Bottom line is that if you base your faith on science your beliefs will change as often as their theories do.

I like what you have to say here. That is usually pretty close to my reasoning that God exists. However I also have reasons for why he must not - as an Agnostic.

If God did exist why would he allow the suffering, the wars the terror that happens? Why would he allow WWII with millions of people to die? Sure there can't be good without evil (how would you know either without the presence of both) but if evil can be so violent and so damaging why is there not the existence of its opposite?

Also if God existed and we weren't simply an accident don't you think we'd have come across (or would soon come across) life in other worlds? Wouldn't this have been replicated somewhere else? Or are we to believe that we are made to continue to evolve and spread around the universe much like Star Trek?

Just food for thought...
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      03-12-2008, 08:46 PM   #30
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As a secretary to an entomologist, I have often heard him say, "he could not understand how anyone watching the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a beautiful butterfly could claim to be an atheist."
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      03-12-2008, 08:51 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Physical nature? As opposed to what?

What is the difference between not being able to prove something exists and the non-existing?
Since when is ignorance truth?

Columbus didn't know Native Americans existed, did they? Yes. Seeing doesn't mean existing.

Does air exist? Can you see feel hear or touch it? no, but it is there.

Do aliens exist on other planets? We do not know, does that mean that they do not exist?
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      03-12-2008, 09:06 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Is it OK to withhold judgment on God's existence until there is physical evidence?
It's your choice of course, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. If I'm wrong and it turns out there is no supreme being it's not like there's going to be anyone to tell me "I told you so" , but if I'm right...
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      03-12-2008, 09:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D0WNxiSH1FT View Post
Since when is ignorance truth?

Columbus didn't know Native Americans existed, did they? Yes. Seeing doesn't mean existing.

Does air exist? Can you see feel hear or touch it? no, but it is there.

Do aliens exist on other planets? We do not know, does that mean that they do not exist?
Columbus sailed to India and serendipityously found US of A!!!! Proof.

Air exist. You can prove that it does with the water hose. PM me and I’ll show you how…Have you graduated high school?

Aliens? You are backing up agnostic point of view. Until there’s evidence of ALF, we can only speculate and withhold judgment….
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      03-12-2008, 09:15 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Columbus sailed to India and serendipityously found US of A!!!! Proof.

Air exist. You can prove that it does with the water hose. PM me and I’ll show you how…Have you graduated high school?

Aliens? You are backing up agnostic point of view. Until there’s evidence of ALF, we can only speculate and withhold judgment….
You asked what is the difference between not KNOWING and not EXISTING.

Columbus DID NOT KNOW they existed and regardless of that information they existed.

Air is invisible, we cannot see it, we cannot touch it, but WE now know what it is, but how many centuries of human existence did we not have any comprehension of "air"?

Aliens will or will not exist regardless of us ever seeing one.
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      03-12-2008, 09:23 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by bartman32 View Post
I like what you have to say here. That is usually pretty close to my reasoning that God exists. However I also have reasons for why he must not - as an Agnostic.

If God did exist why would he allow the suffering, the wars the terror that happens? Why would he allow WWII with millions of people to die? Sure there can't be good without evil (how would you know either without the presence of both) but if evil can be so violent and so damaging why is there not the existence of its opposite?

Also if God existed and we weren't simply an accident don't you think we'd have come across (or would soon come across) life in other worlds? Wouldn't this have been replicated somewhere else? Or are we to believe that we are made to continue to evolve and spread around the universe much like Star Trek?

Just food for thought...


I too have thought about all of those horrible things and about the possibility of life elsewhere. The only answer I have come up with is that God is really an extension of everything in this universe and whatever else is out there besides this universe. God created everything as a sort of sensory experiment. He feels our pain and has empathy but is bound by his own laws to not interfere in the "program".

I came up with this notion one night when I was staring at my fish tank. I have one fish who likes to nip at one of the other's fins and gills. He was really starting to annoy the fish and myself in the process. What was I supposed to do though? Take the fish out and isolate him from his kin? Or maybe kill the fish? Neither would be fair to any of the fish. I was also a little curious about why he was doing it and decided to wait and watch the outcome. For all intents and purposes I might as well have been God at that point to the fish. I was able to alter their destinies, I had their very lives in my hand. Now that was done on pure will power and curiosity but imagine if I had the power to create matter or bend space-time.

I would not be able to control what I did (on purpose or accidentally) so I would put in "safeguards" to protect from my meddling. Of course I could always remove those safeguards at any time, but that would mean that there was no such thing as free will and that I have not truely accomplished anything but created a bunch of pre-programmed robots which had no free will of their own. I think God wants to experience all that we are, all that we were and all that we will become. I think the main experience he wants to experience is love, but humans gained all these extra emotions and there was no way to control them without interfering with free will. So he takes the good and takes the bad and takes them all and there he has...the facts of life.

As far as aliens, yeah, why would humans be the only being? Just because the bible says so? Meh, gotta take that book with a grain of salt...
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      03-12-2008, 09:45 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
I too have thought about all of those horrible things and about the possibility of life elsewhere. The only answer I have come up with is that God is really an extension of everything in this universe and whatever else is out there besides this universe. God created everything as a sort of sensory experiment. He feels our pain and has empathy but is bound by his own laws to not interfere in the "program".

I came up with this notion one night when I was staring at my fish tank. I have one fish who likes to nip at one of the other's fins and gills. He was really starting to annoy the fish and myself in the process. What was I supposed to do though? Take the fish out and isolate him from his kin? Or maybe kill the fish? Neither would be fair to any of the fish. I was also a little curious about why he was doing it and decided to wait and watch the outcome. For all intents and purposes I might as well have been God at that point to the fish. I was able to alter their destinies, I had their very lives in my hand. Now that was done on pure will power and curiosity but imagine if I had the power to create matter or bend space-time.

I would not be able to control what I did (on purpose or accidentally) so I would put in "safeguards" to protect from my meddling. Of course I could always remove those safeguards at any time, but that would mean that there was no such thing as free will and that I have not truely accomplished anything but created a bunch of pre-programmed robots which had no free will of their own. I think God wants to experience all that we are, all that we were and all that we will become. I think the main experience he wants to experience is love, but humans gained all these extra emotions and there was no way to control them without interfering with free will. So he takes the good and takes the bad and takes them all and there he has...the facts of life.

As far as aliens, yeah, why would humans be the only being? Just because the bible says so? Meh, gotta take that book with a grain of salt...
The universe works different than your fish tank, and you are not God. According to the bible, God is omnipotent, and you're not; therefore, God can control how we act or think, more importantly, He can control the future. So if he sees your fish tank, he can snap his fingers and your fishes will love each other.

So i'm come to the conclusion that if God exists, He must hates us.
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      03-12-2008, 09:48 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
I too have thought about all of those horrible things and about the possibility of life elsewhere. The only answer I have come up with is that God is really an extension of everything in this universe and whatever else is out there besides this universe. God created everything as a sort of sensory experiment. He feels our pain and has empathy but is bound by his own laws to not interfere in the "program".

I came up with this notion one night when I was staring at my fish tank. I have one fish who likes to nip at one of the other's fins and gills. He was really starting to annoy the fish and myself in the process. What was I supposed to do though? Take the fish out and isolate him from his kin? Or maybe kill the fish? Neither would be fair to any of the fish. I was also a little curious about why he was doing it and decided to wait and watch the outcome. For all intents and purposes I might as well have been God at that point to the fish. I was able to alter their destinies, I had their very lives in my hand. Now that was done on pure will power and curiosity but imagine if I had the power to create matter or bend space-time.

I would not be able to control what I did (on purpose or accidentally) so I would put in "safeguards" to protect from my meddling. Of course I could always remove those safeguards at any time, but that would mean that there was no such thing as free will and that I have not truely accomplished anything but created a bunch of pre-programmed robots which had no free will of their own. I think God wants to experience all that we are, all that we were and all that we will become. I think the main experience he wants to experience is love, but humans gained all these extra emotions and there was no way to control them without interfering with free will. So he takes the good and takes the bad and takes them all and there he has...the facts of life.

As far as aliens, yeah, why would humans be the only being? Just because the bible says so? Meh, gotta take that book with a grain of salt...

Q:How you do you know if it’s a he or a she?

A:Feed them, and you shall see:
If it’s a she that ate it, it’s a female, and if it’s a a him, he ate it…..
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      03-12-2008, 09:56 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Q:How you do you know if it’s a he or a she?

A:Feed them, and you shall see:
If it’s a she that ate it, it’s a female, and if it’s a a him, he ate it…..
LOL

I just use he because it's easier to keep my pronouns the same. In all reality I have no clue if God is an "He" a "She" or an "It". Probably the later because really the only reason for gender and sex is to procreate, and if you are a omnipotent entity like God you could do that without sex (although probably quite a bit less fun). Heck God could be something that we don't even have a word for yet. Could be He is a form of energy not yet discovered or the space between electrons. Who the heck knows.
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      03-12-2008, 10:13 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ChineseGuy View Post
The universe works different than your fish tank, and you are not God. According to the bible, God is omnipotent, and you're not; therefore, God can control how we act or think, more importantly, He can control the future. So if he sees your fish tank, he can snap his fingers and your fishes will love each other.

So i'm come to the conclusion that if God exists, He must hates us.
Repeat after me...

"I am a meat popsicle"


How does the universe differ from my fish tank? For all intents and purposes that tank IS their universe. They cannot comprehend outside of their universe. They cannot comprehend that I am human and can do what I like to them. I can snap my fingers and they will all die (or at least it would seem that way to them) when in reality I would just drop a few tablets of poison in the tank while they weren't looking. The premise is the same with God. Why is it so hard for humans to believe that we don't even have half a clue of what is really going on in this world/universe/multiverse/whatever. We are just meat popsicles, infants in this universe. We can barely roll over much less explain how the mysteries of the universe work. I think it's pretty self righteous to think otherwise.

I have yet to see God snapping his/her fingers to make everyone love each other, if I am mistaken feel free to call me out on it.
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      03-12-2008, 11:25 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
Repeat after me...

"I am a meat popsicle"


How does the universe differ from my fish tank? For all intents and purposes that tank IS their universe. They cannot comprehend outside of their universe. They cannot comprehend that I am human and can do what I like to them. I can snap my fingers and they will all die (or at least it would seem that way to them) when in reality I would just drop a few tablets of poison in the tank while they weren't looking. The premise is the same with God. Why is it so hard for humans to believe that we don't even have half a clue of what is really going on in this world/universe/multiverse/whatever. We are just meat popsicles, infants in this universe. We can barely roll over much less explain how the mysteries of the universe work. I think it's pretty self righteous to think otherwise.

I have yet to see God snapping his/her fingers to make everyone love each other, if I am mistaken feel free to call me out on it.
What i mean by your fish tank is different than the universe is that we cannot compare you to God. I agree that we're meat popsicles that know nothing about the universe.

I know you can kill those fishies anytime. The difference from you and God that i want to point out is that God can create the future, and you can't. You can only separate them, kill them, eat them...you get my point. God can do "anything", including making those fishies love each other. I don't see how powerful or omnipotent God is if he can't make 2 fishies fall in love.

You have not yet seen God snap his/her fingers to make everyone love each other, because God does not exist.
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      03-12-2008, 11:55 PM   #41
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Irreducible Complexity.

"Anything less than the complete form of such a system or organ would not work at all, or would in fact be a detriment to the organism, and would therefore never survive the process of natural selection. Although they accept that some complex systems and organs can be explained by evolution, they claim that organs and biological features which are irreducibly complex cannot be explained by current models, and that an intelligent designer must have created life or guided its evolution. Accordingly, the debate on irreducible complexity concerns two questions: whether irreducible complexity can be found in nature, and what significance it would have if it did exist in nature."
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      03-13-2008, 10:19 AM   #42
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If all humans die and/or are extinct, does God exist?
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      03-13-2008, 10:27 AM   #43
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i can....just give me a paper clip, rubber band, and some matches...
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      03-13-2008, 10:36 AM   #44
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nope. if anyone could, there would be no need to have faith.
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