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      03-09-2008, 04:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
There are axioms, theories, postulates, proofs, etc. All are useful. Science is useful. I wouldn't want to dispute that. I love science. But I do not treat it as a religion. Much of it is questionable, though I accept it as interesting or useful. As for me, I don't have a quarrel with science except where people who are religious followers of science aggrandize their self concept by demeaning others who don't share their commitment, their devotion to their scientific beliefs.
Term "religious followers of science" is oxymoron. Again you try to put science and religion as equal views of the world. They are NOT. Science searches for truth and is backed up by countless evidence and experiments. In your words: It is useful, because it works.
Religion is a claim that supernatural exists without physical evidence. Don't you see the huge difference?

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What we really want to see are your words. What do you really think? What has evolution done for you?
If you talk about evolution theory, it hasn't done anything more for me than Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion. It explains the world we live in and backs it up by physical evidence.

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Another thing that came up in one of your other threads was you said something to the effect [if you need a direct quote, I could find it] that Christians (or more generically religious people) are missing out on life. What in life do you have that we miss out on because we are Christians?
Christians live their life based on ancient book. Christians are bounded by its laws and fear of hell. Christians prepare for the next life and don't understand how precious this one is. Christians are manipulated by guilt trip while your religious leaders are getting massages from male escorts while smoking crack.

The most intriguing question again is: What if hks786 is right?
Didn’t you just waste your life because you had bad luck to be a Christian. Don’t you find this bizarre?
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      03-09-2008, 04:42 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Christians live their life based on ancient book. Christians are bounded by its laws and fear of hell. Christians prepare for the next life and don't understand how precious this one is. Christians are manipulated by guilt trip while your religious leaders are getting massages from male escorts while smoking crack.

The most intriguing question again is: What if hks786 is right?
Didnít you just waste your life because you had bad luck to be a Christian. Donít you find this bizarre?
You overgeneralize and offer a mindless attack. This is a pattern for you.

What do we Christians or religious persons miss out on that you don't miss out on?
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      03-09-2008, 05:46 PM   #91
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What do we Christians or religious persons miss out on that you don't miss out on?
The truth?
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      03-09-2008, 06:21 PM   #92
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The truth?
We will certainly disagree on what is truth. It seems that those without faith have no truth. All they have is relative truth.

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"There is no God and there is no soul. Hence, there are no needs for the props of traditional religion. With dogma and creed excluded, then immutable truth is also dead and buried. There is no room for fixed, natural law or permanent moral absolutes." -John Dewey (1859-1952)
Is Dewey one of your mentors? What is truth to you?

I would also still like to hear from e90im. What do we Christians or religious persons miss out on that you don't miss out on?
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      03-09-2008, 06:36 PM   #93
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I think the misconception is that Religion ignore science, that is not the case. A lot of us are you scientist, infact many famous theory that you keep using are by scientist that give glory to the the lord. There are many examples that goes from Issac Newton, Albert Einstein, Michael Faraday, Galileo Galilei just to name a few. So why can't you accept religion and science can co-exist? Because I can, everyday I have to use the laws of science and religion. All those theorie you argue are true but remember most of them were created by people who also believe in God.
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      03-09-2008, 06:36 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by ChineseGuy View Post
The truth?

Nicely done.
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      03-09-2008, 06:39 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
I think the misconception is that Religion ignore science, that is not the case. A lot of us are you scientist, infact many famous theory that you keep using are by scientist that give glory to the the lord. There are many examples that goes from Issac Newton, Albert Einstein, Michael Faraday, Galileo Galilei just to name a few. So why can't you accept religion and science can co-exist? Because I can, everyday I have to use the laws of science and religion. All those theorie you argue are true but remember most of them were created by people who also believe in God.
I sense some strong attacks on this one by e90im

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      03-09-2008, 06:44 PM   #96
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if it comes out as attack it's not meant to be, i'm just stating we believe in science too.
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      03-09-2008, 06:44 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
You overgeneralize and offer a mindless attack. This is a pattern for you.

What do we Christians or religious persons miss out on that you don't miss out on?
What is mindless about it? Answer and be specific?

Isn't calling my response mindless without supporting evidence, a mindless attack itself?

You miss the ONLY WAY OF THINKING that WORKS!!!! SCIENCE!!

I said it many times, Science is NOT a body of knowledge and encyclopedias. Itís a way of thinking. Critically. Search for truth based on evidence.

You worship obedience to authority. You suppress important questions that need enormous evidence, and accept bizarre book as truth.

Life is full of wanders without need to make up false ones. Just buy a telescope and attend astronomy class at the local community college...
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      03-09-2008, 06:52 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
I think the misconception is that Religion ignore science, that is not the case. A lot of us are you scientist, infact many famous theory that you keep using are by scientist that give glory to the the lord. There are many examples that goes from Issac Newton, Albert Einstein, Michael Faraday, Galileo Galilei just to name a few. So why can't you accept religion and science can co-exist? Because I can, everyday I have to use the laws of science and religion. All those theorie you argue are true but remember most of them were created by people who also believe in God.
You are right about Newton. Einstein was not religious in a way that you would like him to have been. But thatís a different topic.

Iíve said before that SCIENCE and RELIGION are incompatible ways of understanding the world. This doesnít mean that both canít reside in the same human being.

However, when one practices science, one can NOT be religious and the other way around. Itís a way of thinking. Science thrives on evidence and proof. Religion dismisses it and claims monopoly on truth.
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      03-09-2008, 06:53 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
if it comes out as attack it's not meant to be, i'm just stating we believe in science too.
Why do you believe in science? Serious question, not mocking.
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      03-09-2008, 06:53 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
I think the misconception is that Religion ignore science, that is not the case. A lot of us are you scientist, infact many famous theory that you keep using are by scientist that give glory to the the lord. There are many examples that goes from Issac Newton, Albert Einstein, Michael Faraday, Galileo Galilei just to name a few. So why can't you accept religion and science can co-exist? Because I can, everyday I have to use the laws of science and religion. All those theorie you argue are true but remember most of them were created by people who also believe in God.
It would seem that we may be of similar opinion. I do not have difficulty with reconciling faith with science. They are not mutually exclusive.

Where the difference becomes apparent, and sides are chosen, is when fanatical atheists (they sometimes call themselves agnostic) will attempt to draw a line that if it is a matter of faith, then it is of no value. They delude themselves to believe that they do not take anything on faith. Daily they take matters on faith. Their arguments are nearly entirely based on their faith in nothingness and trust in chance, yet even this they will argue as if they offer intellectual superiority and are above it all.
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      03-09-2008, 07:11 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
What is mindless about it? Answer and be specific?

Isn't calling my response mindless without supporting evidence, a mindless attack itself?
"Christians are manipulated by guilt trip while your religious leaders are getting massages from male escorts while smoking crack." -e90im
Quote:
You miss the ONLY WAY OF THINKING that WORKS!!!! SCIENCE!!
You draw conclusions that are nonsense and do not support your argument. As a perfect scientist, you shouldn't offer opinion, just the facts. No hyperbole.
Quote:
I said it many times, Science is NOT a body of knowledge and encyclopedias. Itís a way of thinking. Critically. Search for truth based on evidence.
You presume that Christian and religious people do not think critically. You jump to lazy conclusions.
Quote:
You worship obedience to authority. You suppress important questions that need enormous evidence, and accept bizarre book as truth.

Life is full of wanders without need to make up false ones. Just buy a telescope and attend astronomy class at the local community college...
I don't think I have suppressed any questions. I may ignore some that are of no interest to me. Ask someone who cares.

How much of the Holy Bible have you read? How long ago?

I used to read avidly about astronomy. I still watch many shows on astronomy and read science news. I once thought I wanted to be an astronomer. It is fascinating science. I don't want a telescope. One that is worth using is somewhat expensive (I have a good Christian friend who has a 14" telescope). I don't want to stay up so late at night to see what I can get in photos (I am not a late nighter).

You dismiss other people's beliefs as false because they are different than your own, yet where you have different beliefs, when they are not embraced by someone you identify as religious, then you belittle them as if it will make you bigger.
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      03-09-2008, 07:17 PM   #102
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Why do you believe in science? Serious question, not mocking.
Because like your argument we were brain washed to believe in science. Ever since k-grade to getting a BS in Engineer have i've been brainwashed with science. But seriously, I use science in my everyday life. It could be as simple as boiling water to examining an MRI, the point is science is a tool of life. You keep stating we don't use science to the extreme but we do, we the "religious believer" are the one trying to find the cure of breast cancers. Don't get me wrong, I know this is a car forum but what do you use science for? to challenge other's faith? cause you know it's not easy defending religion, we can easily give up and defend evolution but that destroys who we are.
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      03-09-2008, 07:24 PM   #103
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You are right about Newton. Einstein was not religious in a way that you would like him to have been. But thatís a different topic.

Iíve said before that SCIENCE and RELIGION are incompatible ways of understanding the world. This doesnít mean that both canít reside in the same human being.

However, when one practices science, one can NOT be religious and the other way around. Itís a way of thinking. Science thrives on evidence and proof. Religion dismisses it and claims monopoly on truth.
We are all sinners, even Einstein sins. Doesn't mean he was not religious. I don't think of myself as perfect, cause i'm not,neither is scottwww or anyone in that matter, we all sin.

Religion does have it's proof, archeologist have found evidence of that.
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      03-09-2008, 07:27 PM   #104
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e90im, what is it in the real world (not talking philosophy here) that Christians and religious people miss out on that you don't miss out on?
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      03-09-2008, 07:27 PM   #105
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To those that question whether evolution is a theory, I suggest you read about the emergence of drug resistant bacteria...... Enough said.

As for whether religion and science can co-exist? They sure can. Both of them are products of human beings. I believe in the existence of divinity but I don't subscribe to a particular religion currently.
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      03-09-2008, 07:31 PM   #106
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To those that question whether evolution is a theory, I suggest you read about the emergence of drug resistant bacteria...... Enough said.

As for whether religion and science can co-exist? They sure can. Both of them are products of human beings. I believe in the existence of divinity but I don't subscribe to a particular religion currently.
If you aren't looking for a cult, avoid Tom Cruise and Scientology. Also avoid Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science.
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      03-09-2008, 07:42 PM   #107
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If you aren't looking for a cult, avoid Tom Cruise and Scientology. Also avoid Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science.
Nah, I went to a Cathloic boys' school for 12 years so no way I will subscribe to those
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      03-09-2008, 07:51 PM   #108
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You draw conclusions that are nonsense and do not support your argument. As a perfect scientist, you shouldn't offer opinion, just the facts. No hyperbole.
scotty…scotty, I feel anger. I feel defeat coming from your words. Don’t you understand that you can’t debate me on facts and evidence? Your belief is based on anything but evidence. My trust is supported by it. What hyperbole? BE specific?

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
You presume that Christian and religious people do not think critically. You jump to lazy conclusions.
Noah, parting the red sea, resurrection…should I continue? Facts please! Evidence?

Christians think critically when they negotiate a lease for their 335i! But they fail miserably when it comes to more important questions. You wouldn’t vote for anyone that isn’t a Christian fundie!!!
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I don't think I have suppressed any questions. I may ignore some that are of no interest to me. Ask someone who cares.
More anger…How about this question:
You claim that JC is the son of God and savior. We are all sinners and we’re going to hell if we don’t believe it. Facts? Evidence? Experiments?

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How much of the Holy Bible have you read? How long ago?
I’ve read it all. It seemed bizarre, morally outdated and cruel. I can support this with facts. We can debate this elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I used to read avidly about astronomy. I still watch many shows on astronomy and read science news. I once thought I wanted to be an astronomer. It is fascinating science.
I agree. You are definitely well educated and debate worthy. I’d like to have a beer with you. You are a facts guy when it comes to everything except Christianity.

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You dismiss other people's beliefs as false because they are different than your own, yet where you have different beliefs, when they are not embraced by someone you identify as religious, then you belittle them as if it will make you bigger.
I dismiss “beliefs” that are not supported by evidence, NOT because they are different than mine. I thrive when someone proves me wrong! I just learned something. It must be supported by experimental data though.

Anyone can claim anything, and if there are enough people to support it, it becomes mainstream. Scientology comes to mind.

You feel angry because in this day and age it is extremely difficult for the religious to debate science based on facts. It has been a common trait on these debates that Christians become frustrated. I’d be frustrated too if I had to defend extraordinary claims with NO evidence.

I offered this advice to the religious as a face saving escape. Just claim that you “believe” without proof, and stay away from arguments that are based on facts. If you think about it, isn’t religion defined by it? Belief without evidence.
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Last edited by e90im; 03-09-2008 at 08:28 PM.
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      03-09-2008, 07:57 PM   #109
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e90im, what is it in the real world (not talking philosophy here) that Christians and religious people miss out on that you don't miss out on?
I don't believe in fairytales. I like them though. But I know they are NOT true. You do.

Why do you go to a doctor when your kid is sick? Shouldn’t a prayer fix it?
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      03-09-2008, 08:01 PM   #110
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I enjoy the wonders of the Universe without the redundant need for the creator, let alone the specific one.

Universe works great without the God hypothesis. And if one day Almighty decides to show us his ass, weíll talk about it.
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