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      02-27-2008, 08:53 PM   #67
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oh boy e90im you must be confused. you shouldn't say something like this, being such a man of science and all. absolute truth is the backbone to the study of the natural world. if there are no absolute truths, then what is science trying to determine? if there are no absolute truths, then we should accept every explanation for everything.

e90im, in fact, the reason why we argue is because we believe there is an absolute truth, in science and spirituality. it's because we believe that if one thing is true, then there must be other things that are false (and i don't mean to say that science and spirituality are mutually exclusive, which is what you assert constantly).

just because people can be wrong, does not mean there are no absolute truths. the natural stays the same (for the most part), it's just that, what we know about it changes. i don't believe that the universe is some sort of fluid blob that constantly changes at random times and in random ways. there is a system that is in order (as opposed to chaos) that we live in and science is the discovery of these absolute truths.
As for my “absolute truth” comment….. there are no sacred theories or laws in science. Our views are constantly changing as we are questioning and learning.

Newtonian mechanics works fine under certain circumstances.
Einstein questioned it and published general and special theory of relativity, that survived any experiment so far.

If we just accept things at face value without thinking critically we will not be able to figure out how world works.

Religion claims monopoly on truth and the only evidence it provides is a book.
The only experiment that can be framed to prove religion valid, is to detect God.

Easiest experiment to do it is the prayer. If it doesn’t work it constitutes data. Studies funded by Templeton foundation show (I will post them on request) show that prayer effectiveness is similar to monkey throwing a dart and hitting a target.
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      02-27-2008, 09:04 PM   #68
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Easiest experiment to do it is the prayer. If it doesn’t work it constitutes data. Studies funded by Templeton foundation show (I will post them on request) show that prayer effectiveness is similar to monkey throwing a dart and hitting a target.
Could it be a possibility (stretch with me) that God intended it to be like this? That there could be nothing to "prove" his existence so all we have is faith? If the Old Testament is true, God proved himself to mankind several times, yet few believed. If the New Testament is true, Jesus performed miracles, yet few believed. Could it be?

Also, another question related to this (the original post!) is, could God have made the world to appear older than it really is? Could he have formed the geological layers to make it appear older than it really is?

Just some questions I struggle with....
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      02-27-2008, 10:20 PM   #69
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Could it be a possibility (stretch with me) that God intended it to be like this? That there could be nothing to "prove" his existence so all we have is faith? If the Old Testament is true, God proved himself to mankind several times, yet few believed. If the New Testament is true, Jesus performed miracles, yet few believed. Could it be?

Also, another question related to this (the original post!) is, could God have made the world to appear older than it really is? Could he have formed the geological layers to make it appear older than it really is?

Just some questions I struggle with....
All great questions!!! I will respond tomorrow. Time to sleep now.
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      02-28-2008, 03:20 PM   #70
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E90Jason,

Could it be a possibility that there could be nothing to "prove" his existence so all we have is faith?

Yes, it could be. However, this undetectable God opens the door for trouble. What is the difference between detectable and non-existent? Evidence. Bible is not evidence. Bible makes extraordinary claims with no physical evidence.

If you allow yourself to “believe” without evidence, where is the boundary between reality and delusion? Anyone can claim whatever they want and if there are enough followers, it becomes more and more believable, but it doesn’t make it any more true. Just look at scientology.

I’m pretty sure someone will jump in and claim that they feel the God in their hart and that constitutes evidence.

Also, another question related to this (the original post!) is, could God have made the world to appear older than it really is? Could he have formed the geological layers to make it appear older than it really is?

2k years ago, human knowledge and understanding of the world was one tiny fraction of what’s known today. Religion was used to explain the unknown. It’s a quick explanation for EVERYTHING: God must have done it.

Can you imagine what would the world look like today if we attributed everything to God without any research?

As science progressed and understanding of Universe expanded, religion in general became less credible. If we can use carbon dating to determine age of fossils, which turns 6k earth argument on it’s head, what can religion’s response be? God made it that way to fool us.

BTW, God could have made geological layers be 6k years old just as easily and avoided the controversy.

When science is wrong, it admits its mistake, learns from it, and moves on. Religion points this out as a weakness and not a virtue. How many times have you heard: These scientists tell us one thing today, and then change their mind? That’s how science works. It is a self-correcting machinery in search for truth.

Religion claims absolute monopoly on truth, and when proven wrong by physical evidence, the explanation is either denial or God made it that way to fool us.

Religion is losing credibility due its inability to admit mistakes and learn.

Try your best to overcome indoctrination and guilt. Think freely and critically. Read and search for evidence.
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      03-07-2008, 01:00 AM   #71
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      03-07-2008, 01:07 AM   #72
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my 6 year old boy says that we evolved from monkeys........

and he also believes that a giant meteor destroyed the dinosaurs..........
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      03-07-2008, 01:18 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y View Post
my 6 year old boy says that we evolved from monkeys........

and he also believes that a giant meteor destroyed the dinosaurs..........
^ good job...I'd take him to Hooters...
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      03-07-2008, 09:31 AM   #74
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Science is science. It shouldn't, and can't, replace religion.

If one wants everyone to disavow religion, there must be something else to take it's place. That's not the role of science. "science is emotionally unsatisfying" (Carl Sagan).

Come up with an alternative, if you want to get rid of organized religion.

Quote from Wiki: "Thus, the fact that scientific beliefs are useful in predicting observations in the physical world can indicate a certain truth for scientific theories; the fact that religious beliefs can be useful in helping people cope with difficult emotions or moral decisions can indicate a certain truth for those beliefs."

I don't think they are interchangable.

NPR's Fresh Air (radio interview show) has a discussion today with Richard Dawkins (author of The God Delusion) and Francis Collins (geneticist/leader of Human Genome Project). Should be available for online listening after it's aired.
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      03-07-2008, 09:56 AM   #75
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i want 3.47 mins of my life back for watching that!
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      03-07-2008, 08:03 PM   #76
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itunes doesn't have it...post a link...
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      03-07-2008, 08:08 PM   #77
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Found it...
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      03-07-2008, 08:24 PM   #78
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I've posted this in other threads, but what it comes down to is neither intelligent design nor evolution has any proof. Therefore neither argument has any credence over the other. Also, what liberals tend to not realize/purposely ignore is that intelligent design does NOT imply God. Could have just as easily been, say, the black monolith for argument's sake.
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      03-08-2008, 10:15 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by FirstClass View Post
I've posted this in other threads, but what it comes down to is neither intelligent design nor evolution has any proof. Therefore neither argument has any credence over the other. Also, what liberals tend to not realize/purposely ignore is that intelligent design does NOT imply God. Could have just as easily been, say, the black monolith for argument's sake.
I suggest that you get your GED first, then post here.
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      03-08-2008, 11:24 PM   #80
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I suggest that you get your GED first, then post here.
GED? Ah you're implying I didn't graduate high school. Again with the personal attacks and insults e90im, I expect better out of one who claims to have such logical views of things. If you're so certain of this theory being true, why not give me some proof? Until evolution has some proof intelligent design is an equally valid theory.
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      03-09-2008, 12:42 AM   #81
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GED? Ah you're implying I didn't graduate high school. Again with the personal attacks and insults e90im, I expect better out of one who claims to have such logical views of things. If you're so certain of this theory being true, why not give me some proof? Until evolution has some proof intelligent design is an equally valid theory.
He won't even try. He likes to get people he disagrees with to spend their time answering his questions, then when he is asked a question that would take some effort to answer, he ignores it, or comes back with a personal attack. This seems to be a common M.O. for the atheist type. It's as if Christians are supposed to have all the time he wants to consume answering his questions, but he has no time to answer one of ours if it would consume some time.
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      03-09-2008, 08:03 AM   #82
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He won't even try. He likes to get people he disagrees with to spend their time answering his questions, then when he is asked a question that would take some effort to answer, he ignores it, or comes back with a personal attack. This seems to be a common M.O. for the atheist type. It's as if Christians are supposed to have all the time he wants to consume answering his questions, but he has no time to answer one of ours if it would consume some time.
you guys have problem with typing google.com and search yourself, or walk to the library, or are just simple lazy...
THere is plenty of proofs on evolution. Now, you may accept them or not. Same as you may accept that the Earth is round, or that the gravity exists (or that is just GOd pulling strings???) or that there are the WMD in Iraq...
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      03-09-2008, 09:45 AM   #83
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you guys have problem with typing google.com and search yourself, or walk to the library, or are just simple lazy...
THere is plenty of proofs on evolution. Now, you may accept them or not. Same as you may accept that the Earth is round, or that the gravity exists (or that is just GOd pulling strings???) or that there are the WMD in Iraq...
There is plenty of information on most subjects if googled. Just as there are plenty good arguments already "out there" to argue whatever points you may try to make trying to demean or belittle a person's faith or religion.

Some would offer an argument against evolution. I am not one to attempt to argue evolution. It is not my passion and it is not my worry.

Since so many of the atheist types assert that Christians who don't subscribe to their concept of evolution are dunderheads, let's see what to you is the evidence that is the basis for your belief in evolution. Let's see your proof. If you can't provide your proof, in your own words/interpretation, then posting about it here is worthless and demonstrates further that you write out of blind acceptance of your faith in evolution, rather than out of reason.

Now, let's not have cut and paste jobs to lift other people's words without citation. What we really want to see are your words. What do you really think. Why do you believe what you do. Does what you think actually make sense. Can you prove it.

What has evolution done for you? What is the meaning of your existence? Let's hear your personal testimony.
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      03-09-2008, 10:06 AM   #84
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you guys have problem with typing google.com and search yourself, or walk to the library, or are just simple lazy...
THere is plenty of proofs on evolution. Now, you may accept them or not. Same as you may accept that the Earth is round, or that the gravity exists (or that is just GOd pulling strings???) or that there are the WMD in Iraq...
Just so you know, the bible stated long ago before men accepted that the earth was round.
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      03-09-2008, 10:10 AM   #85
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Just so you know, the bible stated long ago before men accepted that the earth was round.
So, the brainwashed followers of that bible have prosecuted those who claimed the Earth was round or not in the middle of the Universe...

So far, the (organized) religion has been only a cause for world's conflicts, nothing else...
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      03-09-2008, 11:39 AM   #86
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GED? Ah you're implying I didn't graduate high school. Again with the personal attacks and insults e90im, I expect better out of one who claims to have such logical views of things. If you're so certain of this theory being true, why not give me some proof? Until evolution has some proof intelligent design is an equally valid theory.
I don't know what your education level is, but judging from your posts,
you don't understand scientific definition of a "THEORY".

According to the National Academy of Sciences:

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition.

For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and the theory of general relativity.

In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common incorrect statements. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them
.


If I offended you, I apologize.

My point is that you ask me to prove things that are scientificly proven common knowledge.

Evidence for it is readily available for both peer review and laymen education.
Since you wanted me to provide “evidence”, here it is, straight from the mouth of National Academy of Sciences.

http://books.nap.edu/html/11876/SECbrochure.pdf
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      03-09-2008, 11:51 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
He won't even try. He likes to get people he disagrees with to spend their time answering his questions, then when he is asked a question that would take some effort to answer, he ignores it, or comes back with a personal attack. This seems to be a common M.O. for the atheist type. It's as if Christians are supposed to have all the time he wants to consume answering his questions, but he has no time to answer one of ours if it would consume some time.
Here is evidence:

http://books.nap.edu/html/11876/SECbrochure.pdf

Do you understand the fact that every scientific theory is backed up by countless experiments and physical evidence?

My claims can be easily checked online and are well supported by, and I'll say it again: "physical evidence"!

When I'm asked to prove something that has been proven countless times and documented, that has predictable and repeatable results, I will refer you to do a quick research.
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      03-09-2008, 01:58 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Here is evidence:
Do you understand the fact that every scientific theory is backed up by countless experiments and physical evidence?

My claims can be easily checked online and are well supported by, and I'll say it again: "physical evidence"!

When I'm asked to prove something that has been proven countless times and documented, that has predictable and repeatable results, I will refer you to do a quick research.
There are axioms, theories, postulates, proofs, etc. All are useful. Science is useful. I wouldn't want to dispute that. I love science. But I do not treat it as a religion. Much of it is questionable, though I accept it as interesting or useful. As for me, I don't have a quarrel with science except where people who are religious followers of science aggrandize their self concept by demeaning others who don't share their commitment, their devotion to their scientific beliefs.

What we really want to see are your words. What do you really think? What has evolution done for you?

Another thing that came up in one of your other threads was you said something to the effect [if you need a direct quote, I could find it] that Christians (or more generically religious people) are missing out on life. What in life do you have that we miss out on because we are Christians?
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