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      02-21-2008, 12:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
you = never driven a porsche
Isn't the most probable statement actually that it is almost for sure that he has not driven the new M3?
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      02-21-2008, 12:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Two times out of the list are wrong/irritating...
Good post south, right on the money.

However, there are more errors/biases hidden in this list. The best 0-100 km/h time is 4.5 s and best 1/4 mi time is 12.5@115. That being said the best 1/4 mi time for the 997S is 12.3@115. Our list here is significantly more detailed and less biased.
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      02-21-2008, 12:52 PM   #25
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DCT will whip it
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      02-21-2008, 02:19 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
he'd rather turn gay than drive a porsche. obviously the dude is trying to get out of the closet

This is why I hate Porsches and the enthusiasts that support them, their only defense is to bash other peoples opinions about Porsche. You all need to accept the fact that not everyone who loves cars is going to love Porsche and the 911. Sorry if I have offended your tender sensibility but I'm not backing down!

:finger: Thank you very much!!!
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      02-21-2008, 02:25 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
you all sound like Richard Hammond right now. Continuous hard-on for the 911, wont let anyone tell you different.
My mom always told me never to discuss either religion or politics in polite company, but hey, who said this was polite company?

Listen, it's clear from your posting name where your passions lie, but hey - if you're going to be a badge whore, why not follow my lead (as well as others), and be promiscuous about it?

I believe the new M3 will follow what appears to be a rigid line dating back to the E30 model. Namely, the new car will be pretty much a better overall car than its predecessor, except that due to size and weight, it'll be less fun to drive. This is in the responsiveness and tossability area. More tonnage equals less fun to drive.

Our E46 M3 (now gone) was less fun to drive than our E36, and again, it was due to size and weight. Of course, it was also a better overall car. The new one will be terrific (really), but you can already read in every road test I've seen that it has lost something in the fun-to-drive sweepstakes - even compared to the E46.

I really tend to like BMWs in general (though Bangle has me a little upset), and the M cars in particular, but I really like Porsches as well. In fact, I can tell you I'm also pretty excited about what Hyundai is currently doing.

Really.

As for Porsche, both of our sons own 911s. One of those is in our garage since Thanksgiving, and will be for three or four more months while his house is undergoing cubic money alterations and updates. He works in Manhattan, but feels compelled to drop by every so often - to visit, but also to get a Porsche hit, so to speak. Yeah, they've also got a six-speed A6 (and a Rover), but the Porsche is special.

It's a 996 Cabrio, and of course I've gotten to compare it with our E46 over some of the more fun and challenging roads here in semi-rural Lancaster county.

Result? Cabrio, hands down. The M3 was a little quicker down the straights, with just as much stick, but understeer (plus wheelbase and overall heft) put the brakes on big fun when you got to pushing a little.

The Porsche has this amazingly tactile steering feel, and simply amazing brakes as well. It's pretty tossable by comparison with the bimmer, and feels a bunch lighter, even though it's probably not.

Our other son has a 997S, and frankly, that car is even better over the same roads. Faster, possibly even more stick, with at least as much of that marvelous steering feel.

Speaking of being a promiscuous badge whore (OK, I mean to say having an open mind about cars), he also has an '05 GTO making about 600 HP (511 at the rear wheels under SAE net rules) that is a pure giggle to drive. The chassis is quite good (Holden Monaro from the Aussies), but it'll pull your face out of shape going into fourth at 100 or so, and it just keeps flying from there. Sure, it doesn't have the moves of either a Porsche or bimmer, but it's still a blast to either drive or ride in.

chicagobimmerboy, my point is that there are bunches of cars out there that are a complete blast, and it doesn't make sense to restrict yourself to a single marque and be a hater of others, even if Freud or Oedipus have something to do with it. Two of the most fun cars I've ever owned have been Dodge Neons fergoshsakes.

Bruce

Edit: PS - I just read that the new bimmer is going to come in at over 3700 pounds in U.S. trim! This'll win me a quick $100 from another noting participant, but I can't say I'm happy about it. Good lord, what were they thinking?

I'll tell you what they were thinking: GT car.

That said, the car is really, really fast given its weight and mission, but physics is a bitch.
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      02-21-2008, 03:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Two times out of the list are wrong/irritating:
M3 E92's best Hockennheim time is 1:14,3 also and the 7:59 quote for the 997S has been achieved by Walter Röhrl, thus not comparable. Sportauto has the 997S listed with 8:05.
Fastestlaps.com just lists the best times so if Master Rohrl is fastest in the 911 thats what will be listed.

Do you have a source for the M3 Hockenheim time? I'll add it to the site if you do.

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      02-21-2008, 03:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
This is why I hate Porsches and the enthusiasts that support them, their only defense is to bash other peoples opinions about Porsche. You all need to accept the fact that not everyone who loves cars is going to love Porsche and the 911. Sorry if I have offended your tender sensibility but I'm not backing down!

:finger: Thank you very much!!!
You take a stab at Porsche owners and wonder why you get negative feedback? You got what you deserve.
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      02-21-2008, 04:49 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Good post south, right on the money.

However, there are more errors/biases hidden in this list. The best 0-100 km/h time is 4.5 s and best 1/4 mi time is 12.5@115. That being said the best 1/4 mi time for the 997S is 12.3@115. Our list here is significantly more detailed and less biased.
Wow, more errors. You're right, smelling bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wads View Post
Fastestlaps.com just lists the best times so if Master Rohrl is fastest in the 911 thats what will be listed.
Understood, but that doesn't make the times comparable, whereas we have the time for both cars driven by the same driver.

Quote:
Do you have a source for the M3 Hockenheim time? I'll add it to the site if you do.

Sure: http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?i...4258106ec1.jpg [Sportauto Supertest, Dec '07]
Good luck trying to add this time. Judging by the comments this time has been removed since the M3 was on Cup+ tires (these are OEM btw), but the rumor of a 7:59 for the RS4 still is there.


Best regards, south
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      02-21-2008, 07:50 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
he'd rather turn gay than drive a porsche. obviously the dude is trying to get out of the closet
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
My mom always told me never to discuss either religion or politics in polite company, but hey, who said this was polite company?

Listen, it's clear from your posting name where your passions lie, but hey - if you're going to be a badge whore, why not follow my lead (as well as others), and be promiscuous about it?

I believe the new M3 will follow what appears to be a rigid line dating back to the E30 model. Namely, the new car will be pretty much a better overall car than its predecessor, except that due to size and weight, it'll be less fun to drive. This is in the responsiveness and tossability area. More tonnage equals less fun to drive.



Our E46 M3 (now gone) was less fun to drive than our E36, and again, it was due to size and weight. Of course, it was also a better overall car. The new one will be terrific (really), but you can already read in every road test I've seen that it has lost something in the fun-to-drive sweepstakes - even compared to the E46.

I really tend to like BMWs in general (though Bangle has me a little upset), and the M cars in particular, but I really like Porsches as well. In fact, I can tell you I'm also pretty excited about what Hyundai is currently doing.

Really.

As for Porsche, both of our sons own 911s. One of those is in our garage since Thanksgiving, and will be for three or four more months while his house is undergoing cubic money alterations and updates. He works in Manhattan, but feels compelled to drop by every so often - to visit, but also to get a Porsche hit, so to speak. Yeah, they've also got a six-speed A6 (and a Rover), but the Porsche is special.

It's a 996 Cabrio, and of course I've gotten to compare it with our E46 over some of the more fun and challenging roads here in semi-rural Lancaster county.

Result? Cabrio, hands down. The M3 was a little quicker down the straights, with just as much stick, but understeer (plus wheelbase and overall heft) put the brakes on big fun when you got to pushing a little.

The Porsche has this amazingly tactile steering feel, and simply amazing brakes as well. It's pretty tossable by comparison with the bimmer, and feels a bunch lighter, even though it's probably not.

Our other son has a 997S, and frankly, that car is even better over the same roads. Faster, possibly even more stick, with at least as much of that marvelous steering feel.

Speaking of being a promiscuous badge whore (OK, I mean to say having an open mind about cars), he also has an '05 GTO making about 600 HP (511 at the rear wheels under SAE net rules) that is a pure giggle to drive. The chassis is quite good (Holden Monaro from the Aussies), but it'll pull your face out of shape going into fourth at 100 or so, and it just keeps flying from there. Sure, it doesn't have the moves of either a Porsche or bimmer, but it's still a blast to either drive or ride in.

chicagobimmerboy, my point is that there are bunches of cars out there that are a complete blast, and it doesn't make sense to restrict yourself to a single marque and be a hater of others, even if Freud or Oedipus have something to do with it. Two of the most fun cars I've ever owned have been Dodge Neons fergoshsakes.

Bruce

Edit: PS - I just read that the new bimmer is going to come in at over 3700 pounds in U.S. trim! This'll win me a quick $100 from another noting participant, but I can't say I'm happy about it. Good lord, what were they thinking?

I'll tell you what they were thinking: GT car.

That said, the car is really, really fast given its weight and mission, but physics is a bitch.
For the record, I respect Porsche but i dont have passion for them. I dont smile when i see one or envy the person driving one. I dont restrict my self to BMW though, I like pretty much all exotic's. but the odds of me owning one just are not that good right now, maybe when i'm in my 30's. Thats why I love the M3, it had the looks, prestige, exclusivity and driving pleasure of an exotic with none of the drawbacks. However the new M3 is an absolute disappointment to me. The only thing keeping me interested in it and not just giving up on it is the fact that for the price not very much else can match it (even its German rivals). In addition I'm not a brand loyalist about every thing, there are a few Benz's and Audi's i like, though I find Bimmers more appealing to me. I also am in love with Ferrari and Lamborghini now if that's not sacreligious and non loyal I dont know what is. But remember being a loyalist isnt all bad, it means you find security in a brand and love whatever comes along.
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      02-21-2008, 08:16 PM   #32
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i personally dont like porsches. but i wouldnt argue any bmw performs better than porsche or bmw > porsche. why would anyone wanna argue that?!

im not a porsche fan, im not a badge whore either. you dont see me on a porsche forum! my previous car is a bmw, and my next one is a bmw too. DOH! that doesnt mean im gonna go around saying my m3 > anything
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      02-21-2008, 11:41 PM   #33
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This question has become more complex.

If it was the M3 with DCT vs. the 997S we have all come to know and love the edge in a straight line goes to the M3. Around a track it really comes down to the driver that can best extract his cars abilities, but the 997 is a bit more at home here. Either way, the M3 has the more technically impressive engine and tranny.

The 997 is getting a facelift for August delivery. The changes are direct injection, boosting power to 380 hp and PDK (porsche dual clutch). There are also minor cosmetic changes (LED's and junk). With these upgrades the 997S regains the upper hand and it does not seem so difficult to choose a 997S over an M3 anymore.
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      02-22-2008, 01:28 AM   #34
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I think, the lap difference isnt so big that this must be discussed.

It´s a question of your envroiment, your preferences and of course of your purse.

M3 is car with a excellent price/benefit-quote and ambitions for also the track and the daily driving.

997 is a track car which can be used on the normal road very well, it´s expansive and brings a very good reputation with it.

I think its like comparing apples and bananas.
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      02-22-2008, 09:07 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Wow, more errors. You're right, smelling bias.


Understood, but that doesn't make the times comparable, whereas we have the time for both cars driven by the same driver.


Sure: http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?i...4258106ec1.jpg [Sportauto Supertest, Dec '07]
Good luck trying to add this time. Judging by the comments this time has been removed since the M3 was on Cup+ tires (these are OEM btw), but the rumor of a 7:59 for the RS4 still is there.


Best regards, south

If there are errors or omissions on Fastestlaps.com its not because of bias its just that people with better data (such as you guys) haven't been along and corrected the info, the site is run by a very keen car enthusiast on a none profit basis. Some of the "errors" may be because the site only lists lap times for stock cars running on normal road tyres so times using Ultra High Performance Tyres won't count (mainly to avoid bias and allow a fair comparison with other cars).
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      02-22-2008, 01:44 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wads View Post
If there are errors or omissions on Fastestlaps.com its not because of bias its just that people with better data (such as you guys) haven't been along and corrected the info, the site is run by a very keen car enthusiast on a none profit basis. Some of the "errors" may be because the site only lists lap times for stock cars running on normal road tyres so times using Ultra High Performance Tyres won't count (mainly to avoid bias and allow a fair comparison with other cars).
Sounds noble, but doesn't seem to bear up against a check: A quick search leads to 3 cars' times listed running on UHP tires either: 997 Turbo, 997 GT3 and Audi R8. Out of these 4 cars (incl. M3) only on the M3 and the GT3 UHP tires are OEM spec.


Best regards, south

Edit: Found two more Hockenheim times performed on UHP tires: 1:15,4 for the Audi RS4 aswell as the 1:11,8 for the Gallardo. All these times have to be removed then, don't they?

Last edited by southlight; 02-22-2008 at 01:59 PM.
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      02-22-2008, 02:33 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
This question has become more complex.

If it was the M3 with DCT vs. the 997S we have all come to know and love the edge in a straight line goes to the M3. Around a track it really comes down to the driver that can best extract his cars abilities, but the 997 is a bit more at home here. Either way, the M3 has the more technically impressive engine and tranny.

The 997 is getting a facelift for August delivery. The changes are direct injection, boosting power to 380 hp and PDK (porsche dual clutch). There are also minor cosmetic changes (LED's and junk). With these upgrades the 997S regains the upper hand and it does not seem so difficult to choose a 997S over an M3 anymore.

Except that the PDK, 997S will be close to $100k reasonably equipped. As of a couple of days ago, I had not heard any confirmations of the August delivery.
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      02-22-2008, 02:42 PM   #38
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Except that the PDK, 997S will be close to $100k reasonably equipped. As of a couple of days ago, I had not heard any confirmations of the August delivery.
Check back with the dealer, mine is taking deposits.

It will be more expensive, but I was talking about strictly performance. For the extra money you also get a level of exclusivity a 3 series can't match.

The base for the Carrera S is 83,000. I don't see PDK costing 17,000 dollars. With sport chrono, Nav, PDK, and premium audio you will still be under 90k. Anything beyond this is not necessary (PCCB's for example).
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      02-22-2008, 04:07 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Sounds noble, but doesn't seem to bear up against a check: A quick search leads to 3 cars' times listed running on UHP tires either: 997 Turbo, 997 GT3 and Audi R8. Out of these 4 cars (incl. M3) only on the M3 and the GT3 UHP tires are OEM spec.


Best regards, south

Edit: Found two more Hockenheim times performed on UHP tires: 1:15,4 for the Audi RS4 aswell as the 1:11,8 for the Gallardo. All these times have to be removed then, don't they?
Yep they'll be deleted...... do the times actually state that they were run on UHP or have you seen the tests in question? This is a genuine question.

EDIT: the beauty or problem (depending on how you view it) is that anyone can add laptimes to the Fastestlaps database so its not easy for the admins to check every entry
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      02-22-2008, 04:17 PM   #40
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Yep they'll be deleted...... do the times actually state that they were run on UHP or have you seen the tests in question? This is a genuine question.
I've seen most of the tests, besides that Sportauto has a list of the times in every issue and cars on UHP tires are marked with two asterisks.

What about the Sportauto wet handling times? Will these be deleted also? IMO it doesn't make sense to delete these times, just add the M3 time (and other cars' times on UHP tires which might have been erased).


Best regards, south
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      02-22-2008, 05:13 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Check back with the dealer, mine is taking deposits.

It will be more expensive, but I was talking about strictly performance. For the extra money you also get a level of exclusivity a 3 series can't match.

The base for the Carrera S is 83,000. I don't see PDK costing 17,000 dollars. With sport chrono, Nav, PDK, and premium audio you will still be under 90k. Anything beyond this is not necessary (PCCB's for example).
I never said PDK would cost $17.000.00.

Your dealer may have taken your deposit, but there isn't any official news yet. Dealers are the last to know. PDK isn't even a certainty. You may get anywhere from 375-385 hp. Yeah, base is $83,800.00. Add sport chrono, Bose, power seats, metallic paint, self dimming mirrors (all of which are must haves) and you are at $92,500 without PDK, which will likely be $5,000 if I know Porsche.
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      02-22-2008, 06:10 PM   #42
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I never said PDK would cost $17.000.00.

Your dealer may have taken your deposit, but there isn't any official news yet. Dealers are the last to know. PDK isn't even a certainty. You may get anywhere from 375-385 hp. Yeah, base is $83,800.00. Add sport chrono, Bose, power seats, metallic paint, self dimming mirrors (all of which are must haves) and you are at $92,500 without PDK, which will likely be $5,000 if I know Porsche.
Porsche unveils model updates to the public when they are close to production.

Geneva is around the corner, expect an announcement there.

Lets say you get a car with options up to 95,000, you don't have to GIVE them 95,000, that is the asking price. The point is it is possible to get a 911S with PDK for well under 100k. My cayenne S had 15,000 worth of options, I paid 7000 of it.

I am not basing my info on my dealer either, my dealer doesn't even know which colors are no longer avaible: http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...age=0&fpart=60
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      02-22-2008, 09:01 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Porsche unveils model updates to the public when they are close to production.

Geneva is around the corner, expect an announcement there.

Lets say you get a car with options up to 95,000, you don't have to GIVE them 95,000, that is the asking price. The point is it is possible to get a 911S with PDK for well under 100k. My cayenne S had 15,000 worth of options, I paid 7000 of it.

I am not basing my info on my dealer either, my dealer doesn't even know which colors are no longer avaible: http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...age=0&fpart=60
I have belonged to Rennteam for a while now. Nothing on that forum is official either. I don't really understand your point. We were comparing MRSP to MSRP. Yes, there are a lot of deals to be had on the 997.

The unveiling may be in March or Sept. You initially said that you expected to get the facelifted 911 in Aug. That would mean that your car would have to have begun produuction around June. Now you say that the unveiling is when the factory is closed (August) so that would mean that he car would not arrive until Nov.

The date that you are referring to (i.e. 03/2008) is not necessarily when the FL specs will be available to the publc.
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      02-22-2008, 11:26 PM   #44
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I have belonged to Rennteam for a while now. Nothing on that forum is official either. I don't really understand your point. We were comparing MRSP to MSRP. Yes, there are a lot of deals to be had on the 997.

The unveiling may be in March or Sept. You initially said that you expected to get the facelifted 911 in Aug. That would mean that your car would have to have begun produuction around June. Now you say that the unveiling is when the factory is closed (August) so that would mean that he car would not arrive until Nov.

The date that you are referring to (i.e. 03/2008) is not necessarily when the FL specs will be available to the publc.
Huh? The title says M3 w / DCT vs. Carrera S, guess I missed MSRP. Obviously MSRP is in the M3's favor, so what? If its performance for the buck, porsche or BMW are hardly the best option.

The point is the 997S is not going to be DCT less for much longer. The other point is with the upgrades the 997S will be the superior performer. I said they would unveil it close to production, to get a car in August production would have to be late April early June. The last build slot for the current model is early April. I'm not sure what you don't understand. Production would start a little over a month after the introduction, that is pretty darn quick.

I may be wrong on the date it is unveiled, Geneva makes the most sense, the point is Euro dealers have already confirmed all of this. Either way, I'll make sure to remind you of this after the official press release. Info usually shows up on forums before official press releases, nothing new.
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