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      01-25-2008, 11:01 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
DCT may or may not be better than the ZF Step. I hope it is. For the track only, it almost certainly is. I say this based on some Audi DCT reports that the ZF is better than Audi DCT.
I hate to jump on the bandwagon because you are getting it from all sides at the moment but are you serious in saying that an auto is better than Audi's DSG or BMW's DCT, come on it's a joke ............. right.

The best automatics shift in 80~100ms but is this the start of the shift or the actual shift itself, DSG/DCT boxes shift in 0.03s and that's the whole thing completely done and dusted. The only thing the current DSG does which is a bummer is shift when it reaches the rev limit and does this without your command, I know there is auto which don't do this but as this is only a software problem it will be fixed in the new DSG and isn't a problem with the DCT.

Automatics are great of that there is not doubt but compared to a dual clutch gearbox they are old school technology.
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      01-25-2008, 11:19 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
+100000000

I own an e92 335i and I love it, don't get me wrong, but it ain't an M3. It ain't even an e46 M3......all the suspension upgrades in the world don't make it feel as planted. Just my humble opinion, but there is so much to an M like how the power is delivered and chassis balance and everything else that a pair of KW's and a tune can't make-up for.
+1
You can upgrade a 335 with every performance mod on the market and it will never be an M3
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      01-25-2008, 11:48 AM   #91
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I hate to jump on the bandwagon because you are getting it from all sides at the moment but are you serious in saying that an auto is better than Audi's DSG or BMW's DCT, come on it's a joke ............. right.
It's OK, I welcome constructive criticism but not so fast on this count.

First of all, to clear up any miscommunication, I said for the track the M-DCT is "almost certainly better". Since no one has independently tested M-DCT I guess we'll have to wait and see before I remove the almost qualifier.

However, for a dual purpose car I'm not sure the distinction is so cut and dried.

http://www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?ID=90340

http://dieselblog.net/2007/05/zf-wil...s-for-diesels/

I don't know why ZF would develop, and manufacturers would spec, both the new autos and DCT in high HP, performance cars if 1 was always superior to the other. I also don't know why Audi would spec the ZF 6 speed for its R8 V12 TDI concept if the DSG was always better. And for that matter the new RS6 speced with the ZF. Ditto the new CTS-V which used to be manual only. I also don't know ultimately if autos developed into manuals will be less than manuals developed in autos.

I do know that shift times can be measured differently. The GT-R's DCT is claiming R mode shift times of 200 ms, which caused an outcry on GT-R forums and threads of 'Why so slow in comparison to others?" until it was discovered that the shift times are measured differently, and really the GT-R uses an updated B-W core the same as other DCT's such as Audi's DSG.

I'm not sorry that I keep an open mind on these things.

Last edited by sdiver68; 01-25-2008 at 12:11 PM.
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      01-25-2008, 12:45 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
2, I am not aware of any"official" track comparisons between a slightly modded 335i and the e90/92 m3. There is a guy with a Dinan modified 335i, reported to be an experienced racer, over on e90post that reports beating Porsche GT3's and Vette's at Laguna. If that's the case, then the M3 will suffer the same fate.
I've run around 997TT in my Cayman, I've seen spec Miatas go around an F430, Nissan 240 lap STi. It's the driver.
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      01-25-2008, 04:34 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
I don't know why ZF would develop, and manufacturers would spec, both the new autos and DCT in high HP, performance cars if 1 was always superior to the other. I also don't know why Audi would spec the ZF 6 speed for its R8 V12 TDI concept if the DSG was always better. And for that matter the new RS6 speced with the ZF. Ditto the new CTS-V which used to be manual only. I also don't know ultimately if autos developed into manuals will be less than manuals developed in autos.

I do know that shift times can be measured differently. The GT-R's DCT is claiming R mode shift times of 200 ms, which caused an outcry on GT-R forums and threads of 'Why so slow in comparison to others?" until it was discovered that the shift times are measured differently, and really the GT-R uses an updated B-W core the same as other DCT's such as Audi's DSG.

I'm not sorry that I keep an open mind on these things.
I would like to explain why Audi chose not to fit the R8v12TDI with a DSG, is quite simple really, it can't take the torque levels (738ft/lbs) and the only gearbox available at the time was the ZF 6sp manual (before you say it, the Veyron gearbox cost 160K, it's a bit expensive don't you think). As for the RS6 well again the DSG box soon to be seen in the A4 and all models after this also can't take the torque levels (this includes the M-DCT) and the ZF 6sp auto can it's as simple as that. Also the RS6 is using the old quattro technology with the front diff mounted behind the gearbox so why develop a DSG box for a car which is to be discontinued in a couple of years or so.

You are right that the GTR is quoting slower shift times than Audi do but then again Audi also say that their box can take 200ms to change gear but this occurs only when you choose a gear out of sequence like say going up the gearbox from 1st to 2nd then 3rd but instead of choosing 4th you pick 2nd, the gearbox has chosen 4th and has to change it for 2nd gear which can take 200ms, do you follow me. The difference between Audi and Nissan is the Japanese are quoting it's worst time and not it's best.
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      01-25-2008, 06:02 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I would like to explain why Audi chose not to fit the R8v12TDI with a DSG, is quite simple really, it can't take the torque levels (738ft/lbs) and the only gearbox available at the time was the ZF 6sp manual (before you say it, the Veyron gearbox cost £160K, it's a bit expensive don't you think). As for the RS6 well again the DSG box soon to be seen in the A4 and all models after this also can't take the torque levels (this includes the M-DCT) and the ZF 6sp auto can it's as simple as that. Also the RS6 is using the old quattro technology with the front diff mounted behind the gearbox so why develop a DSG box for a car which is to be discontinued in a couple of years or so.

You are right that the GTR is quoting slower shift times than Audi do but then again Audi also say that their box can take 200ms to change gear but this occurs only when you choose a gear out of sequence like say going up the gearbox from 1st to 2nd then 3rd but instead of choosing 4th you pick 2nd, the gearbox has chosen 4th and has to change it for 2nd gear which can take 200ms, do you follow me. The difference between Audi and Nissan is the Japanese are quoting it's worst time and not it's best.
Well I guess when you are only putting out 295 TQ the M-DCT is fine

I know the specific reasons and differences, and thanks for taking the time to reiterate for the benefit of others. However, what is the hold-up with developing high TQ DCT's? Is it because high TQ DCT's are required to be built from unobtainium to the tune of $300,000 per box?

You still have not explained why ZF has both DCT gearboxes and an improved 3rd generation '8HP' high performance speed version of their 2nd gen 6HP boxes in development. Could it be that neither technology hold a definitive edge over the other for road cars and trucks?

In your 2 gear change scenario, the ZF 6HP box can go direct, while DCT still has to go sequentially. Do we know the shift change speed comparison there? Of course, most 2 gear changes on a track would be during braking going into a corner where a few hundred ms don't mean squat.

Finally, we know the extremely fast lock-up TQ converter of the ZF box eliminates the pumping losses associated with the hydraulic TQ converters, giving a direct mechanical linkage between the pump and turbine.

Again, I'll reiterate, for the track DCT right now hold an advantage in most situations, as it should for 3x the cost of the ZF.
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      01-25-2008, 07:13 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
In your 2 gear change scenario, the ZF 6HP box can go direct, while DCT still has to go sequentially. Do we know the shift change speed comparison there? Of course, most 2 gear changes on a track would be during braking going into a corner where a few hundred ms don't mean squat.
I can't give you times for how quick the DSG does 2 or 3 gear drops (yes it can do 3 gear drops) but I know it's f--king fast and I doubt even an automatic is doing it any quicker. As for why develop both systems, well that's simple because while DSG is very good at performing like an auto it isn't AS good as the real thing and because of this I believe at the minute we won't see it fulfilling the role any further than in sporty car applications. So no luxury cars like the Bentley or Rolls Royce just yet.
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      01-26-2008, 10:28 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
As for why develop both systems, well that's simple because while DSG is very good at performing like an auto it isn't AS good as the real thing and because of this I believe at the minute we won't see it fulfilling the role any further than in sporty car applications. So no luxury cars like the Bentley or Rolls Royce just yet.
Exactly.

Jerkiness in everyday driving, while improved over SMG, is still there. So you just took delivery of your $65K pride and joy, take a non-enthusiast for a ride, and the biggest impression is how jerky the car is around town. This is why I said for an everyday dual-purpose car, I'm not convinced MCT with 2 clutches is better than the new ZF's with 5 clutches.

Funny how I summed up this whole conversation earlier and had a whole bandwagon of naysayers...
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      01-26-2008, 11:00 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Exactly.

Jerkiness in everyday driving, while improved over SMG, is still there. So you just took delivery of your $65K pride and joy, take a non-enthusiast for a ride, and the biggest impression is how jerky the car is around town. This is why I said for an everyday dual-purpose car, I'm not convinced MCT with 2 clutches is better than the new ZF's with 5 clutches.

Funny how I summed up this whole conversation earlier and had a whole bandwagon of naysayers...
It's not jerky, at least the DSG system in a Golf GTi isn't. It's all down to your opinion of what is jerky and what is not, it doesn't slur from one gear into another in the same way as an auto will but it is totally acceptable on anything other than a top of the line 80K+ luxury car which main concern is the pamper it's passengers in the utmost of smoothness.

Plus at the minute the technology is still new and because of this it costs much more to manufacture than a similar automatic, it's to old numbers thing. In the long run it will take over the role of the automatic or something else will replace the both of them, such is progress.
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      01-26-2008, 12:45 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
It's OK, I welcome constructive criticism but not so fast on this count.

First of all, to clear up any miscommunication, I said for the track the M-DCT is "almost certainly better". Since no one has independently tested M-DCT I guess we'll have to wait and see before I remove the almost qualifier.

However, for a dual purpose car I'm not sure the distinction is so cut and dried.

http://www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?ID=90340

...
A few points...

I would not call 92% efficiency "very close" to a MT which Bruce A. recently pointed out is about 96-97% efficient. That is 21 HP difference in the M3. A DCT may be a bit less efficient than a MT (concentric shaft, two clutches, etc.) but I bet they are very close.

I appreciate the advanced modern automatics but the article did not address complexity, number of parts, ease of service or those other niceties mentioned in the title of the article.

THE only reason DCT boxes are expensive now is their limited production quantities. Once the volume gets higher and price lower the flexibility and relative simplicity of DCTs will be really tough to match. Much of the flexibility of a DCT is in software.

Based on the recent videos of the M-DCT skipping gears seems entirely feasible (not that they actually showed that). Say 4-2: clutch on 4&2 shaft disengages, both 4 and 2 syncros move simultaneously, 4 disengage, 2 engage (they should each have their own actuator, right?), clutch on 4&2 engages. The only difference here is that you do not get smooth power transfer since you don't have the two clutches simultaneously engaging/disengaging. Like I have said, a DCT on a dual downshift can be as good as the best SMGs. A fairly small difference, esp. on downshift. Do keep in mind this is speculative.

Last edited by swamp2; 01-27-2008 at 03:16 AM.
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      01-26-2008, 08:54 PM   #99
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Quote:
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Truth hurts, huh?

Technically, EDC is superior, functionally I have not seen any proof, and in fact have seen a load of evidence that it is not any better than a set of track oriented coilovers.
Not really...and I don't think you speak "the truth" here.

While the apples-to-apples dampening comparison of the "stiffest" settings of a A/M coilover on a 335 vs. the "stiffest" setting on the M3 EDC may be splitting hairs, as far as the functionality is concerned, A/M coilovers can not match the combined benefits of having an adaptive setting; i-drive integrated & available to the driver under warranty. This superior "technical" aspect, as you call it, in my mind wins over the rewards that A/M coilovers can offer overall on a standard vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post

Funny how I summed up this whole conversation earlier and had a whole bandwagon of naysayers...
When it comes to the (heated) exchanges regarding the opinions of some of these technicalities, there is really no reason for some of the attitude that comes with the arguments. It makes it real easy for people to get ad hominem with you...

There is a big difference in the way you present your points of view and let's say for example... swamp.

P.S. One thing we can both agree on is that the 335 is a great car for the money and super-fun to mod, no doubt.
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      01-27-2008, 01:10 AM   #100
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haha, another one of these threads. Love it!
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      01-27-2008, 10:19 AM   #101
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Not really...and I don't think you speak "the truth" here.

While the apples-to-apples dampening comparison of the "stiffest" settings of a A/M coilover on a 335 vs. the "stiffest" setting on the M3 EDC may be splitting hairs, as far as the functionality is concerned, A/M coilovers can not match the combined benefits of having an adaptive setting; i-drive integrated & available to the driver under warranty. This superior "technical" aspect, as you call it, in my mind wins over the rewards that A/M coilovers can offer overall on a standard vehicle.
OK, but imho having no i-drive is a benefit, I have no use for other than 2 suspension settings, road and track, which coilovers do provide, and they are also warrantied for life. With either the M3 or 335i, you are still going to have to add camber plates and possibly other items (sway bar?) to correct the factory built-in understeer for optimum track performance.
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      01-30-2008, 04:18 AM   #102
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OK, I'm lucky enough to have a e92 335i (with SS Turbo Tuner) and a e92 M3 right outside my door.

I have driven both to death and the difference is quite simple:

BMW M3:
- The M3 has less torque down low, makes more power up top, and is, a race car that you can drive on the street. It feels tighter and simply a bit more brutal (brakes, suspension, etc). It sounds sweet and looks aggressive.

BMW 335i +SSTT:
- MUCH more low down torque and delivers its power in a more "street car" like fashion. The 335 is a VERY fast street car - not a race car - the M3's V8 is faster if you can get it over 5000rpm. Under 5000rpm, you will be eating the 335's dust. The 335 is softer and more street friendly than the M3 - but still blows the doors off most other street cars out there.

So, that is my take on the 335 vs M3 discussion - from someone who has both on hand to drive back to back. Both are GREAT cars.
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      01-30-2008, 11:54 AM   #103
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So, that is my take on the 335 vs M3 discussion - from someone who has both on hand to drive back to back. Both are GREAT cars.
Ahh, the voice of experience, good post and thanks!
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      01-31-2008, 10:56 AM   #104
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Ahh, the voice of experience, good post and thanks!
Now wait and watch the Nissan, Honda and older Porsche owners who disagree with the one person in here that owns them both. Bottom line is there are people that want to go fast and people that like to know their car is fast by what others are telling them. ( these are called posers ) For me I like to go fast every single day that i push that start button. Now from what ive noticed here is that alot of you m3 drivers seem to live in the middle of road courses with all the talk of lap times you talk about . I wish i were as lucky as you all, cuz i know its not like any of you to talk about something u know nothing about....i.e. a car noone in this country owns yet. But what we do know is that your m3 gets spanked by a 335i in the only video thats been filmed. Also im sure you have all seen the video of walked u losing by a fender to an m5. A 335 is a quarter mile monster in the way your m3 will never be, and our 335i may never be the track. Im just thankful I dont live in the infield of laguna seca like you m3 owners do.
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      02-01-2008, 12:10 PM   #105
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Everything I can think of that the fully loaded 92 M3 has over the fully loaded 335
(please update this list & put the price next to it to upgrade aftermarket)

NA high revving V8 ($2000 Proceed chip for equivalent speeds)
Brakes that rival the gt3 rs ($5500-6000 installed)
LSD ($3000-4500) note, the diff on the 335 is now welded on
Sport seats (easily $5000+ for the same caliber installed)
Stiffer chassis (good question, anyone?)
Sport suspension ($1500 installed)
Performance steering wheel (no idea, anyone?)
High flow exhaust ($1600 installed)
High Performance Clutch & Flywheel (3000 installed)
CF roof (about $1600 installed)
DKG transmission (not yet, maybe not ever)
19" wheels cost much less ($3100 premium)
Built differently from the ground up (???)
Warranty (335 doesn't have one after all the mods. Price anyone?)
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      02-01-2008, 12:20 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by ChrisFastM3 View Post
Everything I can think of that the fully loaded 92 M3 has over the fully loaded 335
(please update this list & put the price next to it to upgrade aftermarket)

NA high revving V8 ($2000 Proceed chip for equivalent speeds)
Brakes that rival the gt3 rs ($5500-6000 installed)
LSD ($3000-4500) note, the diff on the 335 is now welded on
Sport seats (easily $5000+ for the same caliber installed)
Stiffer chassis (good question, anyone?)
Sport suspension ($1500 installed)
Performance steering wheel (no idea, anyone?)
High flow exhaust ($1600 installed)
High Performance Clutch & Flywheel (3000 installed)
CF roof (about $1600 installed)
DKG transmission (not yet, maybe not ever)
19" wheels cost much less ($3100 premium)
Built differently from the ground up (???)
Warranty (335 doesn't have one after all the mods. Price anyone?)
///M badge (priceless) sorry, had to do it
, whatever
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      02-01-2008, 01:47 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFastM3 View Post
Everything I can think of that the fully loaded 92 M3 has over the fully loaded 335
(please update this list & put the price next to it to upgrade aftermarket)

NA high revving V8 ($2000 Proceed chip for equivalent speeds)
Brakes that rival the gt3 rs ($5500-6000 installed)
LSD ($3000-4500) note, the diff on the 335 is now welded on
Sport seats (easily $5000+ for the same caliber installed)
Stiffer chassis (good question, anyone?)
Sport suspension ($1500 installed)
Performance steering wheel (no idea, anyone?)
High flow exhaust ($1600 installed)
High Performance Clutch & Flywheel (3000 installed)
CF roof (about $1600 installed)
DKG transmission (not yet, maybe not ever)
19" wheels cost much less ($3100 premium)
Built differently from the ground up (???)
Warranty (335 doesn't have one after all the mods. Price anyone?)
///M badge (priceless) sorry, had to do it
The 19inch Rims from BMW parts department for the e92 M3 will cost as follows

Front 8.5x19 $720 each
Rear 9.5x19 $745 each

so your looking at 2930+ tax for a set of 19inch M3 rims then Add tire cost
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      02-01-2008, 02:46 PM   #108
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Angry

Do some of you really believe that BMW is so stupid that they'd make the M3 model only marginally better than the 335. These are two different cars, this is old stop comparing them.

If you think the 335 is so much better and offers a better value (chips etc) then buy one and stop winning about how the cheaper BMW is so much better than the M3. If you think the M3 is a rip-off than go buy something else.

No matter how much you mod an 335, it will never be an M3. You can spend 20k to make the 335 faster than the M3- this is true. However, just because you tune a Nissan 350Z to be faster than an F430 doesn't mean that is better car. They are each unique. Get what best fits your needs.

Everyone who thinks the 335 +proceed is an M3 rival is a total idiot
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      02-01-2008, 02:53 PM   #109
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The 19inch Rims from BMW parts department for the e92 M3 will cost as follows

Front 8.5x19 $720 each
Rear 9.5x19 $745 each

so your looking at 2930+ tax for a set of 19inch M3 rims then Add tire cost
All I know is that the 19's came out to $1900 for my M3 coming in June.
If you go to the BMWUSA site and build a 335i, the 19's cost between $4500 & $5225. Thats a savings of $2600 $3325.
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      02-01-2008, 02:56 PM   #110
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Do some of you really believe that BMW is so stupid that they'd make the M3 model only marginally better than the 335. These are two different cars, this is old stop comparing them.

If you think the 335 is so much better and offers a better value (chips etc) then buy one and stop winning about how the cheaper BMW is so much better than the M3. If you think the M3 is a rip-off than go buy something else.

No matter how much you mod an 335, it will never be an M3. You can spend 20k to make the 335 faster than the M3- this is true. However, just because you tune a Nissan 350Z to be faster than an F430 doesn't mean that is better car. They are each unique. Get what best fits your needs.

Everyone who thinks the 335 +proceed is an M3 rival is a total idiot
I couldn't agree more. I just wanted to break it down to prove the same point.
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