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      01-04-2008, 02:55 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Despite all of the nitpicking about the subtleties of the systems, first gen., seconds gen., US vs EU systems, etc. Audi is ahead of BMW, period. You seem to have an immense problem admitting this in any degree at any time.
Yeah you're right. Anyway that's a resolution of mine: Praising Audi for their achievements.

Today: FSI
Kudos to Audi for inventing such a great system.



Best regards, south
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      01-04-2008, 03:29 PM   #68
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Audi is ahead of BMW, period.
I remember BMW saying they have worked with DI and it wasn't up to spec for high rpm applications yet. I am sure BMW could have thrown it into their engines and seen less than stellar results, ie RS4, just to lay claim to being "ahead" of others.
Just because a company comes out with something first doesn't necessarily mean they are ahead of the curve. I am sure many manufactures withold releasing an improvement if it doesn't meet their in-house specs. Perhaps Audi's level of achievement isn't as high as BMW, with regard to gains.
How do you know that BMW couldn't have put their version of DI into their engines and seen similiar small gains?
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      01-04-2008, 05:35 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Yeah you're right. Anyway that's a resolution of mine: Praising Audi for their achievements.

Today: FSI
Kudos to Audi for inventing such a great system.



Best regards, south
A nice resolution south. And I know despite the sarcasm there is always a bit of truth in every sarcasm. Hey - at least they are both German!

E: One enormous part of the equation of who is ahead is IMO who releases it first. You guys should all know I like M>>S, RS, etc. but they still make great cars and in some ways are ahead of BMW. DSG is the other example. M-DCT is probably going to be better than DSG, is it better that they "waited" (or developed more) a bit. However this only means they are more conservative, not ahead. Audi's DSG system is by the way good enough to be hailed as a revolutionary transmission. M-DCT will be polish on Audi's (Borg Warner's...) innovation.

Seems to be a theme with Audi vs. BMW Audi was first with AWD, DGI, DSG, etc. then BMW comes a bit (or by choice much) later and likely better. I'm sure there are many other examples from those who have followed the history of each brand better than I.
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      01-04-2008, 06:03 PM   #70
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Audi is ahead of BMW...everywhere but the track
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      01-04-2008, 06:30 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
Audi is ahead of BMW...everywhere but the track

Totally agree....the 2 key areas where Audi is ahead is:
  • Drivetrain Losses: No one beats Audi in sucking power out of an engine and absorbing it in the drivetrain. Congrats Audi on making the RS4 the slowest 400 hp car on the planet. KUDOS!
  • Weight: Nothings says pork than an Audi
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      01-04-2008, 06:35 PM   #72
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Art, T. Excellent points, in the end what we are all after is performance and thrills. Here BMW is the clear leader.

That is why I get accused now and again of being a BMW fanboy because I have so many great things to say about BMW and not nearly as much about so many other brands. I know you don't want to sift through all my posts, but I'll freely admit to being a huge M fan, advocate, debater, etc. Porsche and Audi are examples worthy of quite some praise as well though, JMHO. As an (ex/recovering...) engineer myself, I certainly appreciate technology, both technology for technologies sake but more importantly the proper application of technology to meet the market and business requirements, that is typically harder and much more rewarding. My point was simply that on some technologies (not the entire package for overall performance) Audi is ahead.

Cheers.
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      01-04-2008, 07:05 PM   #73
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I was semi-joking

Audi makes some nice machines...
old RS6
RS4
R8

but I'm biased, I do believe BMW is only surpassed by Porsche in the engineering of HiPo machines...discounting the excess, Lambo, Ferrari, etc.

but a well driven M car can hold it's own with almost anything
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      01-04-2008, 07:30 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
I was semi-joking

Audi makes some nice machines...
old RS6
RS4
R8

but I'm biased, I do believe BMW is only surpassed by Porsche in the engineering of HiPo machines...discounting the excess, Lambo, Ferrari, etc.

but a well driven M car can hold it's own with almost anything
I think one of the reason Porsche is so good is that they are even more conservative than BMW in their design and engineering philosophy. They come out with a product (i.e. 1st gen Boxster) and then refine it and refine it and refine it. They don't scrap the whole car and begin from scratch, because in doing so you lose both the good parts of the old mechanicals and design and the potential to create a long-standing design statement (i.e. 911). BMW was evolutionary in their designs up until the most current "Bangle" generation.

Porsche, however, is sometimes frustratingly evolutionary and dogmatic about their approach, such as holding back the Cayman so it does not eclipse the 911. Given that, at the end of the day, a company's success has much to do with its profits, their approach is obviously working. I just think they are missing an opportunity to build a Club Sport Cayman that has 355 HP, costs the same as a 911S yet is a more focused performer.
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      01-05-2008, 03:41 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I think one of the reason Porsche is so good is that they are even more conservative than BMW in their design and engineering philosophy. They come out with a product (i.e. 1st gen Boxster) and then refine it and refine it and refine it. They don't scrap the whole car and begin from scratch, because in doing so you lose both the good parts of the old mechanicals and design and the potential to create a long-standing design statement (i.e. 911). BMW was evolutionary in their designs up until the most current "Bangle" generation.

Porsche, however, is sometimes frustratingly evolutionary and dogmatic about their approach, such as holding back the Cayman so it does not eclipse the 911. Given that, at the end of the day, a company's success has much to do with its profits, their approach is obviously working. I just think they are missing an opportunity to build a Club Sport Cayman that has 355 HP, costs the same as a 911S yet is a more focused performer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
I was semi-joking

Audi makes some nice machines...
old RS6
RS4
R8

but I'm biased, I do believe BMW is only surpassed by Porsche in the engineering of HiPo machines...discounting the excess, Lambo, Ferrari, etc.

but a well driven M car can hold it's own with almost anything


Porsche?? Give any company 30-40 years to perfect a flat-6 and they will do just as well (what they discovered water cooling in 1999??? Bah). I love Porsche.....but where the heck is the DSG for the 911's??

They are too busy making stupid SUVs and monsterous sedans.
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      01-07-2008, 03:50 AM   #76
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Back to the discussion about HP/liter, DI, etc, BMW went "balls out" on the M5's V10 in terms of HP/liter (for a such a large engine), and torque/liter. Although the M3's V8 seems to eclipse the V10 in the HP/liter category many believe that the M5's engine is making more like 520 HP (based upon its stellar performance figures for a >2 ton machine) so they may both be about equal there.

However, the M5's torque curve is FAR from flat. It rises dramatically at around 6000 and thus its peak torque is pretty impressive, esp. compared to the M3's. In achieving this top-end performance BMW sacrificed both low end and mid-range torque(where is makes much less than its old 5 liter V8 in the previous M5) and FUEL ECONOMY.

Although you'd think folks who can afford a $80K+ sedan would not care about the poor fuel economy, I know M5 owners complain about the lack of range when they average 12 MPG (EPA 11/17) in normal driving. With a 16 gallon tank many can't even go 200 miles before needing to fill up.

I think BMW was aware of this and chose to provide the M3 with a more usable torque curve and make it a more fuel efficient powerplant.

We can leave the gas-guzzling, high-end torque curve to the CSL.
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      01-07-2008, 03:57 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
However, the M5's torque curve is FAR from flat. It rises dramatically at around 6000 and thus its peak torque is pretty impressive, esp. compared to the M3's. In achieving this top-end performance BMW sacrificed both low end and mid-range torque(where is makes much less than its old 5 liter V8 in the previous M5) and FUEL ECONOMY.

Although you'd think folks who can afford a $80K+ sedan would not care about the poor fuel economy, I know M5 owners complain about the lack of range when they average 12 MPG (EPA 11/17) in normal driving. With a 16 gallon tank many can't even go 200 miles before needing to fill up.

I think BMW was aware of this and chose to provide the M3 with a more usable torque curve and make it a more fuel efficient powerplant.

We can leave the gas-guzzling, high-end torque curve to the CSL.

There is more room in the V10 - like 80 hp more room.

You shouldn't confuse M5 / M6 owners kidding about fuel economy.....it is an inside joke, almost a badge of pride. The biggest complaint from the M5 / M6 guys is the size of the fuel tank. If they put a 90 or 100 liter tank, everyone is happy.

I am still on the side that BMW made the wrong compromise in delivering a flat torque curve instead of giving more power in the high rev part of the engine.
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      01-07-2008, 07:35 AM   #78
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it is an inside joke, almost a badge of pride.
Interesting way of expressing one's pride.
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      01-07-2008, 12:52 PM   #79
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Interesting way of expressing one's pride.

I wish I had a button that dumps raw fuel into the exhaust so I can shoot out flames. Hopefully, there will be a Prius behind me
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      01-07-2008, 01:49 PM   #80
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Quote:
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I wish I had a button that dumps raw fuel into the exhaust so I can shoot out flames. Hopefully, there will be a Prius behind me

That would be a kind off M3 with after burner capabilities

M-16 if you like
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      01-07-2008, 07:19 PM   #81
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That would be a kind off M3 with after burner capabilities

M-16 if you like

Actually I heard BMW will offer 2 packages:

ZSJ = Scram Jet
ZAH = Anti-Hippie Package which allows you to dump fuel into the exhaust for 10 foot flames if the rear sensor detects Toyota Prius
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      01-08-2008, 03:18 AM   #82
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ZAH = Anti-Hippie Package which allows you to dump fuel into the exhaust for 10 foot flames if the rear sensor detects Toyota Prius
Dude you are killing me. I wish I was half as funny as you are, seriously. I am fairly green leaning and consider the environment a priority yet I still will likely drive and M3 and I still love your humor.
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      01-08-2008, 04:33 AM   #83
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Why not just do it properly?

All Prius owners should be subjected to this:



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      01-08-2008, 07:43 AM   #84
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Dude you are killing me. I wish I was half as funny as you are, seriously. I am fairly green leaning and consider the environment a priority yet I still will likely drive and M3 and I still love your humor.
Don't get all sweet on him yet. Tbone uses the same joke in multiple threads until he gets a laugh out of it.
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      01-08-2008, 12:44 PM   #85
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Dude you are killing me. I wish I was half as funny as you are, seriously. I am fairly green leaning and consider the environment a priority yet I still will likely drive and M3 and I still love your humor.
Whether you're green or not, those Toyota boys could be onto something via the law of unintended consequences...

From 2009:

Cost per day to enter central London in an M3: £25.00
Cost per day to enter central London in a Prius: £-

And if you have one of those funny little electric cars, you can park wherever you like for free too.
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      01-08-2008, 08:49 PM   #86
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love this thread
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      01-08-2008, 08:52 PM   #87
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Whether you're green or not, those Toyota boys could be onto something via the law of unintended consequences...

From 2009:

Cost per day to enter central London in an M3: £25.00
Cost per day to enter central London in a Prius: £-

And if you have one of those funny little electric cars, you can park wherever you like for free too.
that's not fair in my point of view. even hybrid GS and RX(they are not that green, aren't they?) don't have to pay congestion charge? feel bad for you guys..
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      01-08-2008, 10:55 PM   #88
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love this thread
You again? Here goes the post count...
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