Who here is a Christian?

[hks786]

Yeah, Abraham is the God of Ibrahim (AS) in Islam.

[e90im]

Thanks scottwww. Even though I am pretty certain that God does NOT exist, and I'm 100% certain that bible is a fairytale, you are a good human being.
I will agree that we'll always disagree.

I am also very impressed with your and hks786 respect for each other.
Both of you believe strongly that your God is the one to believe in, and that non-believers are going to the most horrific place - HELL.

If hks786 and 1.5 billion Muslim believers are right, scotwww and floridaboy are going to burn in hell; if scottwww is right, JC will NOT forgive poor hks786 that lives by Quran!!!

P.S. And what if both are wrong and Buddha is to be worshiped???

Edit: Did you guys sit down and studied all major religions, and then decided which one to dedicate your life and "soul" to, or was it a family tradition?
You might want to look at the "other" religions and make sure you are right, because my friend hks786, there are 1.5 billion Christians who are sure you are going to hell.

I AM NOT MOCKING OR TRYING TO START A INTER-RELIGIOUS FIGHT, THESE ARE SERIOUS ISSUES.

For your enjoyment: Ganesha is one of the best-known and most-worshipped deities in the Hindu pantheon;

[hks786]

For once I'm certain you are being serious and not trying to cause a dispute. For me, I was born and raised as a muslim. BUT I am a critical thinker. Many traditions and cultural things creep into Islam because people think Islam has something to do with being from Asia etc. It's nothing like that at all.

Over the years, I also studied other religions and ways of thinking. I didnt limit myself to choosing ONE religion from all of them. In respect of other religions, I can never accept the way there is more than one God or God can be man and God at the same time. In Islam, we believe in ONE God who isnt mixed with his creation. He is all knowing, powerful, forgiving and is BEYOND our imagination. Whatever we imagine isnt him. That doesnt mean you cant have a one-to-one relationship. It just means that through Allah's own parameters he doesnt mix himself among creation. Asking "Why cant God mix with creation?" is just like asking "Why cant God lie?".

In respect of other ways of thinking, you already know my views.

As a sidenote, I see why a lot of people wont accept Islam. I think it's firstly because they think you have to come from the east and "live by the sword". By Allah, Islam isnt that at all. They also cant accept Islamic morals. I ask these people: what are morals? morals are just based on traditions. Laws always change. We humans never agree on what is "morally acceptable". Anyway, I'm not going to get into that.

[e90im]

hks786,

and is BEYOND our imagination. Whatever we imagine isn’t him

Based on how the hypothesis of God is framed, it can NEVER be proven that he exists.

So if there is no physical evidence except for a man written book how do you know that he exists? SO you and scottwww, believe in a book.

Would I be wrong to start a Lord of The Rings religion? I could, I guess, but you wouldn’t think much of me. You’d hopefully get me psychiatric help.

[ElCapitan]

Originally Posted by e90im

hks786,

and is BEYOND our imagination. Whatever we imagine isn’t him

Based on ow the hypothesis of God is framed, it can NEVER be proven that he exists.

So if there is no physical evidence except for a man written book how do you know that he exists? SO you and scottwww, believe in a book.

Would I be wrong to start a Lord of The Rings religion? I could, I guess, but you wouldn’t think much of me. You’d hopefully get me psychiatric help.

That is the whole point. You have to believe without hard evidence proof. That is why it is called faith.

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by e90im

hks786,

and is BEYOND our imagination. Whatever we imagine isn’t him

Based on ow the hypothesis of God is framed, it can NEVER be proven that he exists.

So if there is no physical evidence except for a man written book how do you know that he exists? SO you and scottwww, believe in a book.

Would I be wrong to start a Lord of The Rings religion? I could, I guess, but you wouldn’t think much of me. You’d hopefully get me psychiatric help.

God is proven to many. You have not received the proof you require. Perhaps you have sidestepped your proof. Perhaps your proof is yet to come in your lifetime. It would be best for you if you get the proof you need before you die and that you accept the gift of life. That proof may be very different that what you might expect or what you might be searching for.

Some may have that proof in witnessing the birth of their own child. Others might have that proof in spiritual gifts. Still others might find themselves in despair and give over their own will to the will of God. The details are probably as varied as the number of people that have ever walked this Earth. Scripture is God's revelation to man as recorded by men.

In the case of the Lord of the Rings, to my knowledge, J.R.R. Tolkien never claimed his writings were from God. That alone should disqualify that work of fiction. (I am giving too much credit to your supposition.) To start a false religion is to start a cult. Examples would be Jim Jones, the Branch Davidians, Scientology, and another one that comes to mind that was in California a few years ago where everybody commited suicide because of a comet that was coming near. They usually begin with a sheister or with a fruit loop. Cults generally don't end well. There are some large religions that might better be described as cults.

If you want to know more about the nature of the scriptures, I suggest that you read them and draw your own conclusions. If you need evidence outside the scriptures, perhaps Christian Apologetics would provide you some good insight. I don't really care for apologetics, so I will not likely try to put my thoughts in that kind of logic. If nothing else, apologetics might help you to understand why the Holy Bible is God's word. I think that apologetics is meant for the non-believer. I find it rather boring, but for those seeking quantifiable proof, it might be just the ticket.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by scottwww

God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all the same God. I have never tried to explain this to a secularist before. Let me try.

H2O is found in three forms: solid, liquid, and vapor. God is known in three forms. That's God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost. You could certainly find fuller explanations than this. Google "trinity" and you are bound to find a lot of information.

Yeah I've heard that explanation before. Hmm. I cant seem to agree with it though. Respectfully, I'll explain:

Firstly, ice, water & vapour ALL contain H20. It's just that H20 is in different forms i.e solid, liquid and gas. This is not the case for God in Christianity. There is God the Father, God the Spirit and God the Son (human). These are completely different things.

"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones, as you see me have...
And he showed them his hands and his feet."

Luke (24:39)

Other people have tried to explain in the following way: a person could be a father, a son and a businessman. However, that fails too. If I told the father a secret the son and businessman would also know it because they are the same person. However, let's look at Bible:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Mark 13:32

This shows that the 3 people in the trinity dont share the same knowledge. I hope I was clear.

[e90im]

Originally Posted by hks786

Yeah I've heard that explanation before. Hmm. I cant seem to agree with it though. Respectfully, I'll explain:

Firstly, ice, water & vapour ALL contain H20. It's just that H20 is in different forms i.e solid, liquid and gas. This is not the case for God in Christianity. There is God the Father, God the Spirit and God the Son (human). These are completely different things.

"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones, as you see me have...
And he showed them his hands and his feet."

Luke (24:39)

Other people have tried to explain in the following way: a person could be a father, a son and a businessman. However, that fails too. If I told the father a secret the son and businessman would also know it because they are the same person. However, let's look at Bible:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Mark 13:32

This shows that the 3 people in the trinity dont share the same knowledge. I hope I was clear.

Are you saying you are confused about the fact that God transformed himself into Jesus (his son) as he descended earth so he could have a pre-meditated suicide. He, an omnipotent deity, has preplanned that Judas would betrayed him, or his son, am confused here…Who is the holy spirit?? Then he ascends to haven because some humans ate some fruit. It sounds fruity to me...

Hks78, I researched Quran, and it makes more sense than new testament, which makes more sense than the old one…

Would it be far fetched to assume that newer religions make more sense simply because they keep up with current t events?

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by hks786

Yeah I've heard that explanation before. Hmm. I cant seem to agree with it though. Respectfully, I'll explain:

Firstly, ice, water & vapour ALL contain H20. It's just that H20 is in different forms i.e solid, liquid and gas. This is not the case for God in Christianity. There is God the Father, God the Spirit and God the Son (human). These are completely different things.

"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones, as you see me have...
And he showed them his hands and his feet."

Luke (24:39)

Other people have tried to explain in the following way: a person could be a father, a son and a businessman. However, that fails too. If I told the father a secret the son and businessman would also know it because they are the same person. However, let's look at Bible:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Mark 13:32

This shows that the 3 people in the trinity dont share the same knowledge. I hope I was clear.

I don't claim to be a scholar. I accept the principle of the Trinitarian Godhead and it is a basic and inseparable concept that helps to define my faith. I could attempt to argue my beliefs with you, but I would need to understand where your beliefs differ, and then we would have to agree on what is scripture.

When it comes right down to the most important aspects of my faith, it is that I love God and I love my neighbor (both friends and enemies). That love includes attempting to nurture the spread of Christian faith. This should never be through intimidation, but kindness.

My faith may be different than yours. My God may be the same God. I think that Christian, Jew, and Muslim all enjoy the blessings of the God of Abraham. Abraham became many nations.

In as much as it depends upon me, I intend to live at peace with those of other faiths and to win some for Christ.

Even where our faiths differ greatly, the divide may be bridged on common values, and for the love of peace.

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by e90im

Would it be far fetched to assume that newer religions make more sense simply because they keep up with current t events?

Here is a thread regarding the Mormon religion that started somewhere around 1820 or 1830:

Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?

There are others, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientology. I would recommend steering clear of any of these three religions (here I give them benefit of not being called cults). I wonder if the terrorists that claim to be Muslim are considered to be a cult like these three "religions" that claim to be some kind of Christian.

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by e90im

Are you saying you are confused about the fact that God transformed himself into Jesus (his son) as he descended earth so he could have a pre-meditated suicide. He, an omnipotent deity, has preplanned that Judas would betrayed him, or his son, am confused here…Who is the holy spirit?? Then he ascends to haven because some humans ate some fruit. It sounds fruity to me...

In Christianity, Jesus was the spotless lamb who was the last sacrifice for victory over sin and death. Perhaps Muslims don't recognize Jesus as that last sacrifice. Do Muslims still practice blood sacrifice? In Christianity, there is no further need of blood sacrifice. Jesus paid the price in full.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by scottwww

I don't claim to be a scholar. I accept the principle of the Trinitarian Godhead and it is a basic and inseparable concept that helps to define my faith. I could attempt to argue my beliefs with you, but I would need to understand where your beliefs differ, and then we would have to agree on what is scripture.

I totally agree. The fact is that muslims/christians/jews cant agree on what is scripture. What is proof to me isnt proof to you.

When it comes right down to the most important aspects of my faith, it is that I love God and I love my neighbor (both friends and enemies). That love includes attempting to nurture the spread of Christian faith. This should never be through intimidation, but kindness.

When Allah tells us to come to common terms between ourselves, this is what he is talking about. These are the grounds that we can share because we both believe in kindness, loving our neighbour etc.

My faith may be different than yours. My God may be the same God. I think that Christian, Jew, and Muslim all enjoy the blessings of the God of Abraham. Abraham became many nations.

I agree that we believe in the SAME god. It's just that we have different scriptures and this has led us to believe in different concepts of God.

[e90im]

Originally Posted by hks786

I totally agree. The fact is that muslims/christians/jews cant agree on what is scripture. What is proof to me isnt proof to you.



When Allah tells us to come to common terms between ourselves, this is what he is talking about. These are the grounds that we can share because we both believe in kindness, loving our neighbour etc.



I agree that we believe in the SAME god. It's just that we have different scriptures and this has led us to believe in different concepts of God.

Wait a minute now!!!

You're telling me that Muslim and Christians believe in the same God???
I dare you repeat that in your local mosque.

[e90im]

I think that Christian, Jew, and Muslim all enjoy the blessings of the God of Abraham. Abraham became many nations.

So, now Abraham is God?
What happened to Jesus, God and holy spirit??

Wasn't Abraham a demented, morally insane old dude?? (According to calculations directly derived from the Masoretic Hebrew Torah, Abraham was born 1,948 years after biblical creation and lived for 175 years (Genesis 25:7).

If an old man, in this day and age, would attempt to murder his son because he's hearing voices in his head, he would be diagnosed crazy!!

And how about God's masochistic game? What the hell was that all about?
To test one's faith?? And you talk about religious moral values?

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by e90im

I think that Christian, Jew, and Muslim all enjoy the blessings of the God of Abraham. Abraham became many nations.

So, now Abraham is God?
What happened to Jesus, God and holy spirit??

Abraham was no more than a man.

Genesis 12
The Call of Abram

1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.

3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

Originally Posted by e90im

Wasn't Abraham a demented, morally insane old dude?? (According to calculations directly derived from the Masoretic Hebrew Torah, Abraham was born 1,948 years after biblical creation and lived for 175 years (Genesis 25:7).

If an old man, in this day and age, would attempt to murder his son because he's hearing voices in his head, he would be diagnosed crazy!!

And how about God's masochistic game? What the hell was that all about?
To test one's faith?? And you talk about religious moral values?

Who are you to judge God? Perhaps in context, it will make better sense to you.

Genesis 15
God's Covenant With Abram

1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward."

2 But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir."

4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." 5 He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars”if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 16
Hagar and Ishmael

1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her."

Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, "You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me."

6 "Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.

9 Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."

11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:

"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the LORD has heard of your misery.

12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers."

13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me." 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

Genesis 17

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Genesis 18

10 Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son."

Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my master is old, will I now have this pleasure?"

13 Then the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I really have a child, now that I am old?' 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD ? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."

Genesis 21
The Birth of Isaac

1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore him. 4 When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as God commanded him. 5 Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.

6 Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about this will laugh with me." 7 And she added, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old age."

Genesis 21
Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away

8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."

11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."

14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.

15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went off and sat down nearby, about a bowshot away, for she thought, "I cannot watch the boy die." And as she sat there nearby, she began to sob.

17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."

19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.

20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

Genesis 22
Abraham Tested

1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

I selected the above passages because they deal with what were to become the descendants of Abraham and the lead up to the sacrifice you referred to.

If you accept the words written about Abraham as historical, then you should recognize that Abraham had very good reason to believe God. For those who don't accept the rest of Abraham's communications with God as real, of course this passage about the sacrifice would be rejected as well. For those who accept Abraham's communications with God as real, it is no less to be accepted as from God what happened with the sacrifice. I expect this was the most difficult time for Abraham in his obedience.

When the Son of God who was also a descendant of Abraham was sacrificed, it was a sacrifice for the whole world.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by e90im

Wait a minute now!!!

You're telling me that Muslim and Christians believe in the same God???
I dare you repeat that in your local mosque.

Why dare me? we have discussions like this all the time at mosques. We accept that Jews and Christians believe in the same God. HOWEVER, we muslims believe that certain revelations were corrupted by people and this led to some people changing the concept of God.

[Rips335iCoupe]

Idiots!! Go watch a New Years day bowl game and get a life!!

[e90im]

Just like I said, a demented, delusional 125 year old man:

When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

When the Son of God who was also a descendant of Abraham was sacrificed, it was a sacrifice for the whole world.

So, Jesus is God, but he is also his son and a son of Abraham? Are God and Abraham gay parents that adopted Jesus from Virgin Mary??

[e90im]

Originally Posted by hks786

Why dare me? we have discussions like this all the time at mosques. We accept that Jews and Christians believe in the same God. HOWEVER, we muslims believe that certain revelations were corrupted by people and this led to some people changing the concept of God.

So, who is your God, Jesus? Cause that's who Christians believe is theirs.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by e90im

So, who is your God, Jesus? Cause that's who Christians believe is theirs.

Look at the Bible. Despite all of it's corruption there is not a single statement where Jesus (AS) claims to be God or asks for worship. Instead the Bible teaches about the oneness of God and the perfect example of Jesus (AS) to the people. The Bible also shows CLEAR distinctions between Jesus (human) and God (eternal, infinite).

However, the teachings of Jesus (AS) have been corrupted over time through the ever-changing Bible and people have tried to include Jesus (AS) and the "Holy Spirit" as part of God. It fails on many many grounds of logic as it has been pointed out.

[e90im]

Originally Posted by hks786

Look at the Bible. Despite all of it's corruption there is not a single statement where Jesus (AS) claims to be God or asks for worship. Instead the Bible teaches about the oneness of God and the perfect example of Jesus (AS) to the people. The Bible also shows CLEAR distinctions between Jesus (human) and God (eternal, infinite).

However, the teachings of Jesus (AS) have been corrupted over time through the ever-changing Bible and people have tried to include Jesus (AS) and the "Holy Spirit" as part of God. It fails on many many grounds of logic as it has been pointed out.

scottwww, its ray den, care to comment?

[its ray den]

Originally Posted by e90im

scottwww, its ray den, care to comment?

been there. done that. hks and i have gone through long discussions about the the accuracy of the bible and who jesus is and we weren't able to come to any sort of understanding.

maybe scottwww will make the attempt..

i'll just say that what he thinks is CLEAR and LOGICAL is only his opinion. interpreting scripture is not quite that easy, especially for someone that has only read bits and pieces of it and never the whole thing.