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      12-17-2007, 07:16 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
ruff-- you know a car choice isn't a logical one, if you're a car enthusiast. It's emotional. Why else would this thread be soooo long? Why else would people be fighting so much? If our decisions were based purely on logic and fact, we'd all agree and be driving Civics or Corollas or something that looks good to us and "gets us there," like the majority of people.

I don't know what anyone's trying to prove. You can't reason out a purchase like this. I just so happen to like the way BMW leather smells more than Audi and Mercedes, for example... Maybe it's based on past ownership, and feelings I had about BMWs at the time. Car purchases are totally personal and emotional..... and based on so many little nuances we each feel about different cars and maybe don't even realize it.

The GTR is a great car, but I simply don't want one, even if it is the best performance you can get for $70K. And believe me I am a huge fan of "bang for the buck" (having owned a C5 Z06 I bought brand new for $42K (0-60 in 4.2) and an EVO 8 currently)

I know you like Porsches, and there are a lot of "intangibles" about a new Porsche purchase that don't make logical sense either.....

rambling fwiw....
Like the Avatar. However, you are really starting to become bothersome with all this reasonable logic stuff. It doesn't make for very long threads. Are you trying to kill the number of guests on this forum when there isn't even U.S. pricing to bicker about? Please...what have the average veiwer numbers dropped to lately... a couple dozen?
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      12-17-2007, 07:31 PM   #112
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Are you trying to kill the number of guests on this forum when there isn't even U.S. pricing to bicker about? Please...what have the average veiwer numbers dropped to lately... a couple dozen?
I seem to be a thread assassin by nature.... not that anyone reads my bungled posts...
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      12-17-2007, 07:34 PM   #113
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I seem to be a thread assassin by nature.... not that anyone reads my bungled posts...
Hans,
No. There is little reason to respond to your posts other than the usual +1 because they are simply too logical for a place like this.
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      12-17-2007, 07:37 PM   #114
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Can you imagine how much money Nissan has spent on this car, given it's purported limited production status? For one thing, how many 997tts did they purchase to test it against? I would guess Nissan is willing to lose gobs of money in short run with the GT-R in order to bolster it's R&D and marketing value for all it's products. We all know, no car company is in the business of losing money long term. I applaud Nissan's maverick vision and attitude in a conservative auto industry.
They have spent some dough and I doubt that buying a couple 997T's really dented the budget all that much. I think the car will definitely be a profit loss. This makes the car even more exciting. Like early hybrids one could buy the car for less than it actually costs the OEM to build it. This is (obviously) a rare occurence in the market and when it happens, like this time it is all about improving a name and image (or some strange form or regulation)

We can speculate a bit about the scales of cost, volumes of dollars involved here and potential for profit or loss. Take the closest competitor, the 997T. Porsche makes about 18% profit on its vehicles. Probably a bit more on the more expensive vehicles like the turbo, say 20%. This means the cost of that car is about .8 x $110k (approximate dealer invoice, not price to consumer) = $88k, which includes cost of parts, as well as marketing, etc. The GT-R is similar in technology but definitely a notch higher. Is it realistic to believe that Nissan can prioduce the GT-R for 20% less in way lower volumes than the Porsche? Keep in mind a lot of the regular 911 production lines can be used for Turbo production as well. My thought is for sure they can not. The 20% improvement would be required just to break even on the car. My bet is that the car will cost Nissan at least $85k to produce and market. Perhaps since the volume is so low the investment in the production facilities can be less, helping to control costs.

Let's look at some common and close to heart examples using similar numbers and figure out profits:

Camry: ~5x10^5 cars/yr, margin ~.05, $2x10^4/car, profit ~$500M/yr
M3: ~1.5x10^4 cars/yr, margin ~.2, $6X10^4/car ~$180M/yr
997 Turbo ~2.5x10^3 cars/yr. margin ~.2, $1x10^5 ~$50M
GT-R: ~1.5x10^3, margin ~-.3 ((85-65)/65), ~$6.5x10^4/car ~-$29M

Even if Nissan got the GT-R costs a whoping 15% better than the 911 it would still be a 15% loss per vehicle and about a $15M/yr loss.

We can agrue, estimate, speculate, etc. all day about labor costs in different parts of the world, currency exchange rates, prices of the vehicles in different countries, etc. but the above is simply an order of magnitude type of calculation. What I think it shows is that Nissan will lose money on the GT-R.

And NO dammit, for the millionth time, this does not mean I don't love the bloody car! It is simply interesting.
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      12-17-2007, 07:40 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
If I may.

If what you claim is really true, then isn't the the GT-R the logical choice.

I just don't know how many times you need to repeat your supposed praise for the GT-R, then go out and search for every simulation performance number you can find that puts the M3 in a good light and the GT-R in a not so good light.



Numb steering, brake fade?
LOL! He likes the GTR soooo much he purposely reposted this in here even though it was already originally posted in the "GTR ring thread" and titled it just right. And to make it worst, he posted this thread in the M3 forum when it should've been in the non-M3 forum just to get everyone's attention.
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      12-17-2007, 07:45 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
since you like pistonheads so much, http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/roadtes...p?c=47&i=17295

"Nissan claims its testers have recorded a 7min 37sec lap of the Nurburgring but, apparently, certain sections of the lap were wet when the time was set. They also have data for a 7min 38sec lap on which the driver was blocked by a slower car for several corners. Both laps were recorded using original equipment Bridgestone RE070A tyres, in other words with the car containing no secret tweaks or tricks. "

and i called you an idiot because you seem to believe if one party publishes false information about the GT-R, all information is then made false, regardless of who published it.
so the one that came out right after the presentation is wrong...
but this one is right?

it's called damage control...
we'll know next year what the 'reality' is once an across the counter car is tested by sportAUTO...
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      12-17-2007, 07:46 PM   #117
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LOL! He likes the GTR soooo much he purposely reposted this in here even though it was already originally posted in the "GTR ring thread" and titled it just right. And to make it worst, he posted this thread in the M3 forum when it should've been in the non-M3 forum just to get everyone's attention.
I wouldn't push it gbb, Swamp is a bright guy and he who knows his stuff.
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      12-17-2007, 07:51 PM   #118
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We can speculate a bit about the scales of cost, volumes of dollars involved here and potential for profit or loss. Take the closest competitor, the 997T. Porsche makes about 18% profit on its vehicles. Probably a bit more on the more expensive vehicles like the turbo, say 20%. This means the cost of that car is about .8 x $110k (approximate dealer invoice, not price to consumer) = $88k, which includes cost of parts, as well as marketing, etc. The GT-R is similar in technology but definitely a notch higher. Is it realistic to believe that Nissan can prioduce the GT-R for 20% less in way lower volumes than the Porsche? Keep in mind a lot of the regular 911 production lines can be used for Turbo production as well. My thought is for sure they can not. The 20% improvement would be required just to break even on the car. My bet is that the car will cost Nissan at least $85k to produce and market. Perhaps since the volume is so low the investment in the production facilities can be less, helping to control costs.

Let's look at some common and close to heart examples using similar numbers and figure out profits:

Camry: ~5x10^5 cars/yr, margin ~.05, $2x10^4/car, profit ~$500M/yr
M3: ~1.5x10^4 cars/yr, margin ~.2, $6X10^4/car ~$180M/yr
997 Turbo ~2.5x10^3 cars/yr. margin ~.2, $1x10^5 ~$50M
GT-R: ~1.5x10^3, margin ~-.3 ((85-65)/65), ~$6.5x10^4/car ~-$29M

Even if Nissan got the GT-R costs a whoping 15% better than the 911 it would still be a 15% loss per vehicle and about a $15M/yr loss.

We can agrue, estimate, speculate, etc. all day about labor costs in different parts of the world, currency exchange rates, prices of the vehicles in different countries, etc. but the above is simply an order of magnitude type of calculation. What I think it shows is that Nissan will lose money on the GT-R.
Swamp,
I know you are one the engineers the M Division has contracted with to develop M-DCT, but I didn't know you were also Ben Bernanke's right hand man.
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      12-17-2007, 08:05 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
If I may.

If what you claim is really true, then isn't the the GT-R the logical choice.

I just don't know how many times you need to repeat your supposed praise for the GT-R, then go out and search for every simulation performance number you can find that puts the M3 in a good light and the GT-R in a not so good light.

[M3] = Numb steering, brake fade?
No, no, no.

I'd much rather discuss my quest for causality and consistency in the automotive performance domain... But if you really want me to re-hash all of my personal criteria and weightings, etc., here we go...

I have explained my personal rationale to you (and to others and to the whole forum) time and time again yet you refuse to listen. Price to performance is at the top of my list but it is not the sole criteria. Indeed if it was, I would have been on the list for the GT-R long ago. However, let's not even get into the discussion as to whether or not you will be able to actually buy the car without a HUGE markup (you would rightly assume my belief is that you won't)... Anyway, my personal criteria are a solid mixture of price to performance, a true daily driver, an automated manual (almost a firm requirement at this point), four real seats, trackable, great looks and an above average level of luxury, comfort and build quality. Did I build my requirements around making the M3 the only fit or is this truly the car I want independent of the existence of the M3, probably a little bit of both honestly, but I do believe it is more of the latter. Where does the GT-R fall short, for me and in light of the above criteria? It is mostly the 4 real seats and the looks, which we all know are nearly 100% subjective.

You can view it any way you like but given how much I have praised the car and how much of a fan of technology you know I am do you think I am lying about this? Really what do you think? Do you think I only say I love the car and secretly I am fuming that it will stomp the M3 for about the same price? I really could not care less. My quest for data, simulations, analogies, etc. for the GT-R is a quest for CONSISTENCY, really that is it. Physics, math and engineering are way more important to me than cars. Until the car can be understood from this perspective and its performance is justified by its specs and the physics, all will not be well and at rest with swamp. It is really quite simple. Again, take it at face value or not. I am getting tired of explaining myself.

Finally, no, the new M3 is certainly not perfect but for me it seems awfully close. How many have found it has excellent steering or excellent with only very minor criticisms? How many have found no problems with the brakes? The former is highly subjective and the latter is also to some extent depending on the roads or tracks you are on and how good of a driver you are. I'll drive any car including the M3 before any final decisions are made. Unfortunately, it is very unlikely I (nor most) will have the chance to flog it nor flog it on a track before making a purchasing decision. Hence it pays to be as well informed as possible and that is a huge value of this forum.
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      12-17-2007, 08:13 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
LOL! He likes the GTR soooo much he purposely reposted this in here even though it was already originally posted in the "GTR ring thread" and titled it just right. And to make it worst, he posted this thread in the M3 forum when it should've been in the non-M3 forum just to get everyone's attention.
I don't really think I need to jusitfy any particular post to you. All you ever really do here is beat dead horses and misunderstand, mis-interpret and barely read replies when aimed directly at you. Please look in the mirror before getting on my case. Just because I am such a nice guy I will answer your concerns.

I quoted the original poster and gave him credit. I mentioned in that thread that I specifically thought the topic was of enough interest to repost it in its own thread. Clearly by the volume of the replies and discussion that was a justified opinion. Bruce A. called me out on not being 100% certain on this and for using a too aggresive diction in my post title. I simply agreed with him on both counts.
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      12-17-2007, 08:14 PM   #121
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Swamp,
I know you are one the engineers the M Division has contracted with to develop M-DCT, but I didn't know you were also Ben Bernanke's right hand man.
Far too kind, but more importantly what do you think of the numbers and the conclusion?
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      12-17-2007, 09:28 PM   #122
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I don't really think I need to jusitfy any particular post to you. All you ever really do here is beat dead horses and misunderstand, mis-interpret and barely read replies when aimed directly at you. Please look in the mirror before getting on my case. Just because I am such a nice guy I will answer your concerns.

I quoted the original poster and gave him credit. I mentioned in that thread that I specifically thought the topic was of enough interest to repost it in its own thread. Clearly by the volume of the replies and discussion that was a justified opinion. Bruce A. called me out on not being 100% certain on this and for using a too aggresive diction in my post title. I simply agreed with him on both counts.
No you don't need to justify any of your post and neither do i. But a repost is a repost and we all know exactly why you did it. In terms of beating a dead horse, you're clearly the expert on that especially when it comes to the GTR being under-rated and the 7:38 ring time not being special or legit. I was simply ageeing with ruff with his post.
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      12-17-2007, 09:47 PM   #123
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No you don't need to justify any of your post and neither do i. But a repost is a repost and we all know exactly why you did it. In terms of beating a dead horse, you're clearly the expert on that especially when it comes to the GTR being under-rated and the 7:38 ring time not being special or legit. I was simply ageeing with ruff with his post.
Yeah you are right, dyno results showing an AWD vehicle making the quoted crank hp at the hubs is neither relevant, interesting nor seemingly contradictory. I made this post just to watch people argue, to have an opportunity to get my all important post count up, to argue endlessly with Nissan fans and most importantly to dis the GT-R and defend the honor of the M3 as the best and fastest sports car ever made.

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      12-17-2007, 10:32 PM   #124
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Swamp,
I know you are one the engineers the M Division has contracted with to develop M-DCT, but I didn't know you were also Ben Bernanke's right hand man.
You have your micro mixed up w/ the macro. Ben's right-hand man would have used a regression of country GDP to autos and then used each country's NIPA-equivalent profits for auto production to estimate margin; then hedonic adjustments to skew the higher quality "goods' " (cars') prices to the downside - don't get me started...

The line-by-line cost accounting approach is more micro - which makes Swamp Buffet's right-hand man
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      12-18-2007, 03:22 AM   #125
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This thread has got more air time than most and as of yet no one has officially given the car a full roadtest, never mind half a dozen so we have some useful data to work on.

The bottom line is that until some well respected magazines do a full roadtest, including dyno figures we may be speculating about all of this for nothing.
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      12-18-2007, 08:13 AM   #126
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Yeah you are right, dyno results showing an AWD vehicle making the quoted crank hp at the hubs is neither relevant, interesting nor seemingly contradictory. I made this post just to watch people argue, to have an opportunity to get my all important post count up, to argue endlessly with Nissan fans and most importantly to dis the GT-R and defend the honor of the M3 as the best and fastest sports car ever made.

You do realize that this single dyno result is not official therefore it is not a valid proof. This whole thread is base on a speculation and again with no surprise you're making a conclusion out of it. Just like you did on the ISF thread and guess what happened there, you where wrong. Now we can do this, . But don't worry, when it becomes official you can do these silly smiley stuff again, in the mean time, hold off on it. Okay, good boy.

Last edited by gbb357; 12-18-2007 at 11:17 AM.
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      12-18-2007, 08:36 AM   #127
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They have spent some dough and I doubt that buying a couple 997T's really dented the budget all that much. I think the car will definitely be a profit loss. This makes the car even more exciting. Like early hybrids one could buy the car for less than it actually costs the OEM to build it. This is (obviously) a rare occurence in the market and when it happens, like this time it is all about improving a name and image (or some strange form or regulation)

We can speculate a bit about the scales of cost, volumes of dollars involved here and potential for profit or loss. Take the closest competitor, the 997T. Porsche makes about 18% profit on its vehicles.
Would the 997T be possible without the enormous undertaking of the 959 in the 80's? No. Could the 911 have even survived through the 90's without the technologies of the 959? Doubtful. Is Porsche rich enough today that they bought a stake in their former parent company? Yes.

The profitability of Halo cars, like factory racing efforts, can not be judged by the P&L of the product itself.
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      12-18-2007, 09:48 AM   #128
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Yeah you are right, dyno results showing an AWD vehicle making the quoted crank hp at the hubs is neither relevant, interesting nor seemingly contradictory. I made this post just to watch people argue, to have an opportunity to get my all important post count up, to argue endlessly with Nissan fans and most importantly to dis the GT-R and defend the honor of the M3 as the best and fastest sports car ever made.

I knew it!
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      12-18-2007, 11:10 AM   #129
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Thanks Swamp and Sdiver,

I would say too bad BMW didn't underrate the M3 like they did the 335. Everyone would then be talking about how fast it is vs the competition, just like the 335 vs it's competition. BMW marketing must of been on holiday when the specs were released.

Actually no, the GT-R it isn't over hyped, it is performing beyond early expectations. The new M3 is the one that was overhyped. Look at the mixed reviews. We don't see many mixed reviews of the GT-R and the R8 now do we?

It is amazing how you can spin the data with the GT-R to make it look as bad as possible, which quite frankly, is even impossible for you. The GT-R plain and simply destroys the new M3. The GT-R numbers, in what ever flavor you wish to display them, do not lie. I guess you can try for the low road in the subjective looks department, since there is really nothing left to argue about.

The Germans are running with their tails between their legs, with simpleton Nissan destroying the whole notion of German supremecy in automotive engineering. The Japanese are spanking the Germans at their own game. To make matters worse, the Lexus LF-A is around the corner. The M3 is going to be average in it's first year of production. How will it compare to it's competition in it's 5th year of production?

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..2.*
If speed and horsepower is what makes you better at engineering then the Corvette has been embarrassing the Germans for many years. But its not, its about your connection with the road, the way teh car communicates to you that its near its limits and whether or not it behaves in a predictable way. That is what makes German, and even more specific BMW, engineering great. Make no mistake about it, the GT-R frigging rocks, but no one from germany is running away with their tails between their legs.

Just my .02
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      12-18-2007, 12:29 PM   #130
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Thanks to memeber sdiver68 for this information,



Original post here.

My post directly following his was:

OMG how many times did I have to say it??? Totally under-rated. Even conservatively this thing has a 15% total transmission and drivetrain loss. With all the extra shafts it could be closer to 20% (more efficient maybe than a RS4 drivetrain but more shafts/bearings as well). This means the engine is putting out about 560 - 590 crank hp.

Now we know the whole story...

I also just re-ran the power to weight vs. N'Ring lap time regression with 560 hp and found it to be outperforming the linear fit by a mere 1.7 seconds. Previously, we found in the regression thread that is was 25 seconds faster than the model predicted. If the car really had that good of a driver and tires as good as I expect they are the time is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SPECIAL. It is just like a drag car getting a good drag strip time. hp rules even at the N'Ring.

Talk about dishonest and over-hyped...

That being said 560 hp for $70k is amazing and the car is darn fast.
Different Dyno, Different Day, Different car (of the same model). Have you ever seen the difference in numbers on a car strapped to a dynojet as opposed to a mustang Dyno? Mustang Dynos read 15-20 percent lower than Dynojets on average. I HIGHLY doubt Nissan would keyword: "Massively" under-rate their flag ship car.... And I only read the first post ftr
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      12-18-2007, 01:39 PM   #131
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I found some more evidence that somehow must be doctored!

http://www.gtrblog.com/index.php?blo...&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


Tsukuba Circuit Lap Time
Nismo Skyline GT-R (R34) Z Tune 1 min 01.150 secs
Nissan GT-R (Stock) 1 min 1:931 secs
Ferrari 360 Challenge Stra' 1 min 02.440 secs
Lamborghini Gallardo 1 min 03.605 secs
Honda NSX-R 1 min 03.920 secs
McLaren F1 1 min 04.620 secs
Porsche 997 Turbo 1 min 04.730 secs
Murcielago 1 min 04.760 secs
Z-Tune 1 min 05.100 secs*(diff day diff driver)
EVO IX RS 1 min 05.528 secs
997 Carrera 4 1 min 05.980 secs
Corvette Z06 1 min 06.020 secs
Lancer Evo IX 1 min 06.060 secs
NA1 NSX-R 1 min 06.198 secs
Nismo GT-R S Tune 1 min 06.232 secs (340 bhp)
Ferrari F40 1 min 06.460 secs
WRX STI SPEC-C 1 min 06.651 secs ( Current STI)
NA1 NSX-R 1 min 06.80 secs (same race as F40)
BMW M5 1 min 06.560 secs
STI S204 1 min 06.800 secs
BMW M6 1 min 07.434 secs
350Z S Version 1 min 08.110 secs
BMW M3 1 min 08.200 secs
Audi RS4 1 min 08.368 secs
Supra Euro Version 330 bhp 1 min 08.460 secs
Mazda RX-7 1 min 08.70 secs
RX-8 A Spec 1 min 09.430 secs
Nissan 300ZX 1 min 10.70 secs
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      12-18-2007, 04:16 PM   #132
timzerofive
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We should all just feel lucky that we have these options of vehicles right now at a mere $70k. Gotta test drive one before I decide to get the GTR over the M3 still. I already bought a 255hp 330i over a 300hp G35 after test driving both, I hope this GTR sells me. Especially since I get a huge discount (once the waitlist dies down of course) from my company.

So many good cars for $70k. M3, RS4/5, C63, maybe a newer, higher HP CaymanS, GTR... How can you guys be bitching?
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