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      12-14-2007, 01:40 PM   #1
swamp2
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GT-R MASSIVELY under-rated

Thanks to memeber sdiver68 for this information,

Quote:
I've seen the first actual Japanese customer GT-R car dyno printout:

482 ps (475 hp) and 59.2 kg/m (428 ft-lbs) at the hubs, Dynapack chassis dyno, 4th gear pull , some type of limiter cut in.

http://minkara.carview.co.jp/userid/.../blog/c227132/ if you can read Japanese, but no Japanese required to read the dyno screen shots.
Original post here.

My post directly following his was:

OMG how many times did I have to say it??? Totally under-rated. Even conservatively this thing has a 15% total transmission and drivetrain loss. With all the extra shafts it could be closer to 20% (more efficient maybe than a RS4 drivetrain but more shafts/bearings as well). This means the engine is putting out about 560 - 590 crank hp.

Now we know the whole story...

I also just re-ran the power to weight vs. N'Ring lap time regression with 560 hp and found it to be outperforming the linear fit by a mere 1.7 seconds. Previously, we found in the regression thread that is was 25 seconds faster than the model predicted. If the car really had that good of a driver and tires as good as I expect they are the time is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SPECIAL. It is just like a drag car getting a good drag strip time. hp rules even at the N'Ring.

Talk about dishonest and over-hyped...

That being said 560 hp for $70k is amazing and the car is darn fast.
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      12-14-2007, 02:02 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Thanks to memeber sdiver68 for this information,



Original post here.

My post directly following his was:

OMG how many times did I have to say it??? Totally under-rated. Even conservatively this thing has a 15% total transmission and drivetrain loss. With all the extra shafts it could be closer to 20% (more efficient maybe than a RS4 drivetrain but more shafts/bearings as well). This means the engine is putting out about 560 - 590 crank hp.
I can't agree that it's awd system will be more efficient than Audi's Quattro system, especially as it has twice as many shafts and bearings. If anything I reckon the GT-R will be worse than Audi's so if I am right you can expect a greater than 20% lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Now we know the whole story...

I also just re-ran the power to weight vs. N'Ring lap time regression with 560 hp and found it to be outperforming the linear fit by a mere 1.7 seconds. Previously, we found in the regression thread that is was 25 seconds faster than the model predicted. If the car really had that good of a driver and tires as good as I expect they are the time is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SPECIAL. It is just like a drag car getting a good drag strip time. hp rules even at the N'Ring.

Talk about dishonest and over-hyped...

That being said 560 hp for $70k is amazing and the car is darn fast.
Well it looks like the GT-R is indeed very special and under-rated. Is it time to talk about the rest of the car's systems now without all the arguments.
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      12-14-2007, 02:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I can't agree that it's awd system will be more efficient than Audi's Quattro system, especially as it has twice as many shafts and bearings. If anything I reckon the GT-R will be worse than Audi's so if I am right you can expect a greater than 20% lose.



Well it looks like the GT-R is indeed very special and under-rated. Is it time to talk about the rest of the car's systems now without all the arguments.
What I meant was that maybe on a joint by joint or shaft by shaft perspective it may be more efficient (simply newer and purpose built/high-end hardware) but as we both know many more shafts it is likely less efficient overall.
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      12-14-2007, 02:14 PM   #4
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just an FYI: dynapacks generally read quite a bit higher than your typical roller dyno because they don't take into account the drivetrain loss from the wheels/tires. for example i made 270rwhp on a dynapack and then made 242rwhp on a dynojet without changing anything on my car. granted i have seen dynapacks that have been tuned to read more like a dynojet, but just for argument's sake this one might not be.


other than that i think we all knew this was coming. the GT-R's performance wouldn't add up otherwise.
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      12-14-2007, 02:44 PM   #5
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They had to make up for the horrid ricer-boy looks somehow to justify the 70k price tag.
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      12-14-2007, 03:10 PM   #6
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No surprise here. The GTR's last three iterations were all underrated big time...
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      12-14-2007, 03:19 PM   #7
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This is equivalent to Barry Bonds getting caught using steroids. If this is true, it is very impressive to get all that power from the 3.5 V6, yet i can't help to feel dissapointed that they would do that and thinking they would'nt get caught.
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      12-14-2007, 03:25 PM   #8
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That definitely is alot of power from a V6 TT. Makes me curious how much potential the turbos have left for the tuners to crank out. I don't imagine that Nissan would of fully tapped the car, but damn that is alot of power out of a V6.
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      12-14-2007, 03:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Thanks to memeber sdiver68 for this information,



Original post here.

My post directly following his was:

OMG how many times did I have to say it??? Totally under-rated. Even conservatively this thing has a 15% total transmission and drivetrain loss. With all the extra shafts it could be closer to 20% (more efficient maybe than a RS4 drivetrain but more shafts/bearings as well). This means the engine is putting out about 560 - 590 crank hp.

Now we know the whole story...

I also just re-ran the power to weight vs. N'Ring lap time regression with 560 hp and found it to be outperforming the linear fit by a mere 1.7 seconds. Previously, we found in the regression thread that is was 25 seconds faster than the model predicted. If the car really had that good of a driver and tires as good as I expect they are the time is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SPECIAL. It is just like a drag car getting a good drag strip time. hp rules even at the N'Ring.

Talk about dishonest and over-hyped...

That being said 560 hp for $70k is amazing and the car is darn fast.
Thanks Swamp and Sdiver,

I would say too bad BMW didn't underrate the M3 like they did the 335. Everyone would then be talking about how fast it is vs the competition, just like the 335 vs it's competition. BMW marketing must of been on holiday when the specs were released.

Actually no, the GT-R it isn't over hyped, it is performing beyond early expectations. The new M3 is the one that was overhyped. Look at the mixed reviews. We don't see many mixed reviews of the GT-R and the R8 now do we?

It is amazing how you can spin the data with the GT-R to make it look as bad as possible, which quite frankly, is even impossible for you. The GT-R plain and simply destroys the new M3. The GT-R numbers, in what ever flavor you wish to display them, do not lie. I guess you can try for the low road in the subjective looks department, since there is really nothing left to argue about.

The Germans are running with their tails between their legs, with simpleton Nissan destroying the whole notion of German supremecy in automotive engineering. The Japanese are spanking the Germans at their own game. To make matters worse, the Lexus LF-A is around the corner. The M3 is going to be average in it's first year of production. How will it compare to it's competition in it's 5th year of production?

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..2.*
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      12-14-2007, 03:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
The Germans are running with their tails between their legs, with simpleton Nissan destroying the whole notion of German supremecy in automotive engineering. The Japanese are spanking the Germans at their own game. To make matters worse, the Lexus LF-A is around the corner. The M3 is going to be average in it's first year of production. How will it compare to it's competition in it's 5th year of production?
I was always under the impression that BMW M's game was in naturally aspirated cars.

You do make some points though, the GT-R is very good regardless of worth. No one is really surprised that it is even better than originally discussed though. As for the Lexus LF-A, I thought that was going to be a $100k + supercar? (Lexus has also been rumored on making a IS-F/R with a $100k price but only a 12 hp increase)
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      12-14-2007, 03:53 PM   #11
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Something I've been wondering lately though is how it would feel to be living with a GT-R instead of a M. Obviously the GT-R would carry more street credit with the tuner crowd. I think that could possibly make me paranoid about my car though. Like every time I would want to go out for a spin I'd have to worry about some bullock trying to prove himself against me. (There would be enough of this in the M3 granted but I feel the GT-R would have it much worse.)
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      12-14-2007, 03:59 PM   #12
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I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff
It is amazing how you can spin the data with the GT-R to make it look as bad as possible, which quite frankly, is even impossible for you. The GT-R plain and simply destroys the new M3. The GT-R numbers in what ever flavor you wish to display them in, do not lie. I guess you can try for the low road in the subjective looks department. Nothing much left to argue over.
I understand what you're saying ruff. It does'nt matter how much anybody would like to make the GTR look bad or discredit it, it's still impressive for $70k. But for the critics, you can't help but for them to question why the deception. Again, it still is impressive no matter how you look at it.

Last edited by gbb357; 12-14-2007 at 04:14 PM.
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      12-14-2007, 04:30 PM   #13
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They could make the car do 0-100 in 2 seconds, still... I really can't be asked to own a Nissan.
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      12-14-2007, 04:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
I was always under the impression that BMW M's game was in naturally aspirated cars. )
I was referring to Motor Sport in general. The Germans are quickly jumping on the FI band wagon because of the obvious benefits. I suspect you have heard the rumors of a turbocharged V8 for the upcoming 5 series and probable FI for the M5. Richter has already hinted of F1. What other choice does the M Division have other than to copy the LS7 engine or upcoming ZR1 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
Something I've been wondering lately though is how it would feel to be living with a GT-R instead of a M. Obviously the GT-R would carry more street credit with the tuner crowd. I think that could possibly make me paranoid about my car though. Like every time I would want to go out for a spin I'd have to worry about some bullock trying to prove himself against me. (There would be enough of this in the M3 granted but I feel the GT-R would have it much worse.)
Street cred is not my gig, but to each his own. A touch to the throttle would prove it very quickly. The big advantage of the GT-R to the M3 is obvious. Gobs and gobs of torque. Much better power with maybe slightly better mileage. All wheel drive for all seasons. And maybe most importantly, the cars resale value will be a lot better. This car is going to go down as one of the all time greats, independent of it's incredible price/performance ratio.
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      12-14-2007, 04:35 PM   #15
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They could make the car do 0-100 in 2 seconds, still... I really can't be asked to own a Nissan.
Well, this lowly Nissan is going to own your BMW.
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      12-14-2007, 04:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
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...the time is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SPECIAL.
...Talk about dishonest and over-hyped...
I don't agree with these statements at all.
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      12-14-2007, 05:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Actually no, the GT-R it isn't over hyped, it is performing beyond early expectations. The new M3 is the one that was overhyped. Look at the mixed reviews. We don't see many mixed reviews of the GT-R and the R8 now do we?

It is amazing how you can spin the data with the GT-R to make it look as bad as possible, which quite frankly, is even impossible for you. The GT-R plain and simply destroys the new M3. The GT-R numbers, in what ever flavor you wish to display them, do not lie. I guess you can try for the low road in the subjective looks department, since there is really nothing left to argue about.
Ruff, this is not about a comparison between M3 and GT-R. The GT-R is completely over-hyped in this specific way: Anyone who thinks that the GT-R can obtain its numbers based of Nissan magically reinventing the sports car is seriously deluded. It is not exceeding expectations AT ALL for absolute performance numbers GIVEN its actual power. When looking specifically at performance per dollar - no, the car is ABSOLUTELY NOT over-hyped, it delivers, big time, period. Hope that clarification helps clarify my opinion.

Not that you specifically will believe it (not many others with whom I have debated various GT-R probably will as well) but I am a big fan of the car. Fantastic technology, fantastic performance, innovation, purity of design for function and incredible price. Not sure how many times I have to say these things to convince folks that I am not a badge whore/too BMW loyal/do not give Nissan credit/etc. ....

That being said I do fall back to my position that the cars (E92 M3 and GT-R) are really only semi-competitors. Furthermore, I would staunchly disagree that the M3 is over-hyped. It has won most comparisons tests againsts competitors with more power and other technologies. Is has also already won engine of the year as well from one publication. There is so much press that is absolutely GUSHING with praise of the car and many who had criticisms are retreating from them. The praise thus far is also not solely with the engine but spread nicely over the car just in general.

Last edited by swamp2; 12-14-2007 at 07:13 PM.
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      12-14-2007, 05:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
...Talk about dishonest and over-hyped...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
I don't agree with these statements at all.
Hmmm 560 actual hp (rough est.) vs. 480 claimed hp is not dishonest. Give me a break. Over-hyped comments clearly clarified above.
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      12-14-2007, 05:35 PM   #19
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I know I won't feel inadequate when I'm at a stoplight and a GT-R pulls up, then blows my M3 away. The GT-R has more HP and AWD, of course it's faster. Why the agony here? The M3 can't be the champ at everything, but it might be the perfect car depending on what you're looking for.....
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      12-14-2007, 05:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Actually no, the GT-R it isn't over hyped, it is performing beyond early expectations. The new M3 is the one that was overhyped. Look at the mixed reviews. We don't see many mixed reviews of the GT-R and the R8 now do we?
How about these quotes?

"Unfortunately (or fortunately), we hit a load of traffic on the return leg. This allowed us to test the Nissan in everyday driving. The first thing we noticed was how the steering began to feel a bit dead on center and rubbery on initial turn-in when the car is driven at more sane speeds."

"It was so much fun that we tried two more launches, maybe that was a bad idea. Just after the third try, a warning light labeled AWD lit up telling us, "Houston, we have problem". This light show reminded us of Tokyo at night and also brought along a load of heat radiating through the rear center console."

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews..._r/index1.html

Overall, the review is positive, like most M3 reviews are, but this car seems to have its issues as well. Doesn't the steering comment sound surprisingly similar to the comments on the M3 steering that you seem to be so dissappointed with? A transmission that overheats when stressed during launch is not exactly something to ignore.

I am sure the GTR will prove to be a great car. However, it clearly isn't perfect, the way the M3 isn't...
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      12-14-2007, 06:02 PM   #21
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Interesting find. I'm not surprised, but now it all makes sense.
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      12-14-2007, 06:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Well, this lowly Nissan is going to own your BMW.
I really don't care, because it's a Nissan. Hence my previous post!

Could never ever bring myself to own a Nissan.

Last edited by Champagne; 12-14-2007 at 06:53 PM.
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