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      12-11-2007, 10:19 PM   #111
swamp2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
Saying that the Evo X has a very advanced drivetrain is not backing anything up at all. You of all people, probably the most technical person that i have ever come accross with should no better than that. Show some technical data Swamp that would clearly show that the GTR and Evo X are equal or that one is more advanced than the other. I can say the same thing about the Subaru WRX, that does'nt mean anything. In regards to the LS600hl, i'll agree it is advanced but it has also been labeled as the most over hyped vehicle.
I will humor you just a bit. Again, I do still maintain my claim the the burden of proof resides with the one making bold unsubstantiated claims.

Anyway the Evo X has the following technologically advanced drivetrain features:

-6 speed programable dual clutch transmission with normal, sport and S-sport modes
-The SAWC (Super All Wheel Control) system integrates sensors and active, real time control of the vehicles power among the wheels to counter undesired handling traits like over and under steer as well as results such as not being able to hold a particular line. It includes three modes for gravel, snow and pavement. It also works to enhance braking as well as accelerating and cornering
-S-AWC includes, talks to and manages the following sub systems:
-ACD - active center differential which actively (in real time and in a varying fashion) splits torque front to rear, the most torque at the rear when accelerating hard on pavement and a much more even distribution or even front bias when cornering on snow
-AYC - active yaw control which actively manages the distribution of torque to the two rear wheels to manage undesired yawing motions (the motion of the vehicle around its CoG in the plane of its wheels)
-ASC - active stability control
-ABS - much more than traditional ABS (which it has) but this is ACTIVE brake control. The S-AWC system can manage braking at all four wheels to improve handling and steering, the ABS system takes over as a more fail safe approach when AYC and ACD can not handle the curve the driver or conditions have thrown at the car
-S-AWC monitors the anti-lock wheel sensors, vehicle speed, as well as the vehicle dynamics yaw rate sensor, all in real time.
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      12-11-2007, 10:30 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I will humor you just a bit. Again, I do still maintain my claim the the burden of proof resides with the one making bold unsubstantiated claims.

Anyway the Evo X has the following technologically advanced drivetrain features:

-6 speed programable dual clutch transmission with normal, sport and S-sport modes
-The SAWC (Super All Wheel Control) system integrates sensors and active, real time control of the vehicles power among the wheels to counter undesired handling traits like over and under steer as well as results such as not being able to hold a particular line. It includes three modes for gravel, snow and pavement. It also works to enhance braking as well as accelerating and cornering
-S-AWC includes, talks to and manages the following sub systems:
-ACD - active center differential which actively (in real time and in a varying fashion) splits torque front to rear, the most torque at the rear when accelerating hard on pavement and a much more even distribution or even front bias when cornering on snow
-AYC - active yaw control which actively manages the distribution of torque to the two rear wheels to manage undesired yawing motions (the motion of the vehicle around its CoG in the plane of its wheels)
-ASC - active stability control
-ABS - much more than traditional ABS (which it has) but this is ACTIVE brake control. The S-AWC system can manage braking at all four wheels to improve handling and steering, the ABS system takes over as a more fail safe approach when AYC and ACD can not handle the curve the driver or conditions have thrown at the car
-S-AWC monitors the anti-lock wheel sensors, vehicle speed, as well as the vehicle dynamics yaw rate sensor, all in real time.
If there is one thing that might differentiate the GTR's awd system is that each wheel is supposedly completely independent. Not just by braking system.
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      12-11-2007, 11:15 PM   #113
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Here are some of the GTR's and Evo X's specs(you provided), let us compare:

GTR specs:
# Drivetrain
# ATTESA ET-S All-Wheel Drive (AWD) with independent rear-mounted transaxle integrating transmission, differential and AWD transfer case.
# Rigid, lightweight carbon-composite driveshaft between engine and transaxle.
# Electronic traction control plus 1.5-way mechanically locking rear differential.
# Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC-R) with three driver-selectable settings: Normal (for daily driving, controls brakes and engine output), R-Mode (for ultimate performance, utilizes AWD torque distribution for additional vehicle stability) and Off (driver does not want the help of the system).
# Hill Start Assist prevents rollback when starting on an incline.

Transmission
# 6-speed Dual Clutch Transmission with three driver-selectable modes: Normal (for maximum smoothness and efficiency), Snow (for gentler starting and shifting on slippery surfaces), and R mode (for maximum performance with fastest shifts).
# Fully automatic shifting or full sequential manual control via gearshift or steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters.
# Dual clutch design changes gears in less than 0.5 second (0.2 second in R mode).
# Downshift Rev Matching (DRM).
# Predictive pre-shift control (in R mode) based on throttle position, vehicle speed, braking and other information.

# Brakes
# Brembo 4-wheel disc brakes with 4-wheel Antilock Braking System (ABS), Brake Assist, Electronic Brakeforce Distribution and Preview Braking.
# Two-piece floating-rotor 15-inch front and rear discs with diamond-pattern internal ventilation.
# 6-piston front/4-piston rear monoblock calipers.

# Steering
# Rack-and-pinion steering with vehicle-speed-sensitive power assist.
# 2.6 steering-wheel turns lock-to-lock.

Suspension
# 4-wheel independent suspension with Bilstein� DampTronic system with three driver-selectable modes: Normal/Sport (for automatic electronic control of damping), Comfort (for maximum ride comfort), and R mode (engages maximum damping rate for high-performance cornering).
# Electronically controlled variable-rate shock absorbers. High-accuracy progressive-rate coil springs.
# Front double-wishbone/rear multi-link configuration with aluminum members and rigid aluminum subframes.
# Hollow front and rear stabilizer bars.

Body/Chassis
# Exclusive Premium Midship platform with jig-welded hybrid unibody.
# Aluminum hood, trunk and door skins. Die-cast aluminum door structures.
# Carbon-reinforced front crossmember/radiator support.

Evo X's specs:
-6 speed programable dual clutch transmission with normal, sport and S-sport modes
-The SAWC (Super All Wheel Control) system integrates sensors and active, real time control of the vehicles power among the wheels to counter undesired handling traits like over and under steer as well as results such as not being able to hold a particular line. It includes three modes for gravel, snow and pavement. It also works to enhance braking as well as accelerating and cornering
-S-AWC includes, talks to and manages the following sub systems:
-ACD - active center differential which actively (in real time and in a varying fashion) splits torque front to rear, the most torque at the rear when accelerating hard on pavement and a much more even distribution or even front bias when cornering on snow
-AYC - active yaw control which actively manages the distribution of torque to the two rear wheels to manage undesired yawing motions (the motion of the vehicle around its CoG in the plane of its wheels)
-ASC - active stability control
-ABS - much more than traditional ABS (which it has) but this is ACTIVE brake control. The S-AWC system can manage braking at all four wheels to improve handling and steering, the ABS system takes over as a more fail safe approach when AYC and ACD can not handle the curve the driver or conditions have thrown at the car
-S-AWC monitors the anti-lock wheel sensors, vehicle speed, as well as the vehicle dynamics yaw rate sensor, all in real time.
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      12-12-2007, 05:16 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post

GTR specs:
..
Evo X's specs:
...
Look I am not going to get drawn in to this mounting debate. I NEVER CLAIMED THE M3 NOR EVO X IS AS TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED AS THE GT-R. Like I said I threw together some quick facts/specs per your incessant requests (and by the way I listed what they accomplish, not just listed them or their acronyms - an acronym is not synonymous with technology just ask the Military about that ). Furthermore, I listed only purely drivetrain things where you make another great "apples to oranges" comparison and add chassis, brakes, steering, suspension, etc. The original discussion was simply the drivetrain.

Celsius: You are wrong about the comparison between the two drivetrains, neither is FWD nor RWD "biased". Each can fully and actively split the torque front to rear. In this regard they are very equal. It does not matter where the transmissions are located, what matters is the hardware and software. Although slightly edging out the Evo X the GT-R and it share a lot in common with regards to their drivetrains and their level of technology.

I know it sucks for all of the huge GT-R fans when a $30k, little 4 door Mitsubishi can in some way challenge (not in absolute performance, obviously, but in technology) the breakthrough $70k GT-R, but it does.
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      12-12-2007, 05:45 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
-You can only expect folks with some passion on such boards, no?

-I am not "the establishment" here. I am a memeber who likes to post, discuss, debate and learn and one who feels like part of a little community of sorts.

-If you did not make such wildy overstated claims and pass them off non-chalantly as FACT you would not get such resistance from me. You can always use "IMO", "IMHO" or "JMHO".

-Take some of your own medicine - the "Chill Pill"
swamp,

Check out when I joined, I am new at this so excuse the lack of IMO etc and allow a little leeway at times.

But tell me if we do find out that my comments are indeed correct will to apologize for the way you treated me with regards to this thread.
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      12-12-2007, 06:37 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Celsius: You are wrong about the comparison between the two drivetrains, neither is FWD nor RWD "biased". Each can fully and actively split the torque front to rear. In this regard they are very equal. It does not matter where the transmissions are located, what matters is the hardware and software. Although slightly edging out the Evo X the GT-R and it share a lot in common with regards to their drivetrains and their level of technology.
I must admit from everything I have read I would have been under the impression that the EVO was more FWD biased than the GTR, it's engine is mounted transversely which normally means the awd system takes it's lead from the front unlike the GTR, the R8, Gallardo, 997Turbo etc which all in normal mode are sending almost all their power rearwards until the situation requires otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I know it sucks for all of the huge GT-R fans when a $30k, little 4 door Mitsubishi can in some way challenge (not in absolute performance, obviously, but in technology) the breakthrough $70k GT-R, but it does.
If that is what you think then it must really piss you off when you think how much better and technically advance the EVO is compared to the M3 for X much of $$ less.

But the very fact you are stating there is a $30K difference between the two cars should surely explain that the GTR must be more advanced, like it's not the case that Nissan's word is worth that much more than Mitsubishi now is it.
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      12-12-2007, 07:15 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Look I am not going to get drawn in to this mounting debate. I NEVER CLAIMED THE M3 NOR EVO X IS AS TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED AS THE GT-R. Like I said I threw together some quick facts/specs per your incessant requests (and by the way I listed what they accomplish, not just listed them or their acronyms - an acronym is not synonymous with technology just ask the Military about that ). Furthermore, I listed only purely drivetrain things where you make another great "apples to oranges" comparison and add chassis, brakes, steering, suspension, etc. The original discussion was simply the drivetrain.

Celsius: You are wrong about the comparison between the two drivetrains, neither is FWD nor RWD "biased". Each can fully and actively split the torque front to rear. In this regard they are very equal. It does not matter where the transmissions are located, what matters is the hardware and software. Although slightly edging out the Evo X the GT-R and it share a lot in common with regards to their drivetrains and their level of technology.

I know it sucks for all of the huge GT-R fans when a $30k, little 4 door Mitsubishi can in some way challenge (not in absolute performance, obviously, but in technology) the breakthrough $70k GT-R, but it does.
I just copied and paste Swamp, you can simply disregard the part about the steering and body/chassis. And the reason i'm showing it is to compare and also to see if one is truly more advanced than the other, or as you claim that the Evo X is equal to the GTR. So i ask you again, base on these specs of both cars can you prove that Footie was wrong with his claim and you are correct with yours? That is all i'm asking. Remember, you called him out and said he is wrong.
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      12-12-2007, 01:17 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
I just copied and paste Swamp, you can simply disregard the part about the steering and body/chassis. And the reason i'm showing it is to compare and also to see if one is truly more advanced than the other, or as you claim that the Evo X is equal to the GTR. So i ask you again, base on these specs of both cars can you prove that Footie was wrong with his claim and you are correct with yours? That is all i'm asking. Remember, you called him out and said he is wrong.
Not sure how many times I can repeat myself. I NEVER CLAIMED THE EVO WAS MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED THAN THE GT-R. HOW MANY F%$^&#$ TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT? IT WAS AN EXAMPLE TO SHOW VERY SIMILAR DRIVETRAIN (INCLUDING TRANSMISSION) TECHNOLOGY FOR 1/2 THE PRICE. No matter how many ways both of you want to twist the facts here the burden of proof rests with those making the claims, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
If that is what you think then it must really piss you off when you think how much better and technically advance the EVO is compared to the M3 for X much of $$ less.
It does not matter one iota to me, zero, zip, zilch. And indeed the Evo's drivetrai is much more technically advanced than the M3. I do not buy a car for technology. I buy for price to performance ratio while combining track ability with luxury, comfort, fun to drive factor and reputation for reliability. These criteria make the Evo a very serious choice except the major drawback of the AWD system taking a ton of fun away from the car and significantly dumming down its driving experience. If you want to buy solely for technology combined with price to performance ratio (and would consider chipping) the Evo is VERY hard to top.
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      12-12-2007, 01:41 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It does not matter one iota to me, zero, zip, zilch. And indeed the Evo's drivetrai is much more technically advanced than the M3. I do not buy a car for technology. I buy for price to performance ratio while combining track ability with luxury, comfort, fun to drive factor and reputation for reliability. These criteria make the Evo a very serious choice except the major drawback of the AWD system taking a ton of fun away from the car and significantly dumming down its driving experience. If you want to buy solely for technology combined with price to performance ratio (and would consider chipping) the Evo is VERY hard to top.
I agree with everything you are saying here so why would GTR fans feel any different, I never buy a car pure of performance though it does play a major role.

You opinion on all AWD system diluting the pure pleasure I can't agree with and it is a little one dimensional which does surprise me. Only FWD bias AWD system are not that enjoyable and this on a part includes the Quattro systems of both the EVO, A3/TT and the A4/5/6/8, these are cars what require your to drive with a distinct style to get anything other than understeer but not cars like the R8, GTR, Porsche 997turbo etc, these RWD bias AWD system only heighten the enjoyment even more because the entertainment is more accessible and in more surface conditions. With cars like the R8 which has always no understeer what so ever means the car can be controlled on the throttle just as good as the M3 if not even more so.
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      12-12-2007, 01:51 PM   #120
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Yes you did.

Quote:
Not sure how many times I can repeat myself. I NEVER CLAIMED THE EVO WAS MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED THAN THE GT-R. HOW MANY F%$^&#$ TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT? IT WAS AN EXAMPLE TO SHOW VERY SIMILAR DRIVETRAIN (INCLUDING TRANSMISSION) TECHNOLOGY FOR 1/2 THE PRICE. No matter how many ways both of you want to twist the facts here the burden of proof rests with those making the claims, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
I have read about the GT-R just as much as the next guy. Sure the tranmission and integrated transaxle mounted in the rear is innovative - mechanically speaking. All of the other AWD and traction control stuff may or may not be just as good or advanced as something like the forthcoming Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. Does the Nissan have AYC, for instance? Just because the car has a screen with hundreds of outputs from the engine, drive and chassis systems does not necessarily mean those systems are ground breaking. Your statment, "This car is the most technically advanced motorcar currently on the roads today" is simply speculation and I believe a product of the media hype about the car unless you can list multiple items, line by line, that are technologies that the car has that no others do.
Dude, are you on drugs or something. I'm simply asking you to prove Footie wrong about the GTR not being more advanced than the Evo X. Since you called him out on it and said he is wrong, prove it. If you cannot prove it then say so, end of discussion. Forget about what you claimed but since you brought it up anyway, look at your post above. That statement above that is in bold is you claiming that the GTR is not more advanced than the Evo X, prove it. You claiming Footie is wrong is worse than Footie's claim of the GTR being the most advanced vehicle. At least he's not calling anyone out and saying they're wrong and he's always right.

Last edited by gbb357; 12-12-2007 at 04:40 PM.
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      12-12-2007, 02:11 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by leakybimmer View Post
let me just tell you...he cannot prove it.....lol
you've yet to make a single worthwhile contribution to this forum
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      12-12-2007, 02:22 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by gadget View Post
you've yet to make a single worthwhile contribution to this forum
I really liked the icon used in the last post. Where do you get those things?
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      12-12-2007, 02:33 PM   #123
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Why doesn't swamp just put all the data into his little simulation program and then it can tell us which car is better! And don't say, "It's not my program, it's a program that I bought and I like." You bought it, it's yours.
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      12-12-2007, 03:38 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
Why doesn't swamp just put all the data into his little simulation program and then it can tell us which car is better! And don't say, "It's not my program, it's a program that I bought and I like." You bought it, it's yours.
I completely agree, if you use it and adamantly claim it's accuracy and post data from it, then you must really believe the validity of the program.
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      12-12-2007, 06:32 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
Dude, are you on drugs or something. I'm simply asking you to prove Footie wrong about the GTR not being more advanced than the Evo X. Since you called him out on it and said he is wrong, prove it. If you cannot prove it then say so, end of discussion. Forget about what you claimed but since you brought it up anyway, look at your post above. That statement above that is in bold is you claiming that the GTR is not more advanced than the Evo X, prove it. You claiming Footie is wrong is worse than Footie's claim of the GTR being the most advanced vehicle. At least he's not calling anyone out and saying they're wrong and he's always right.
Wrong again. You can't even read once sentence correctly can you? Stop putting words in my mouth, misquoting and interpreting what I said. SIMPLY READ what I said. You are so unbelievably difficult. What you put in bold is absolutely, 100%, NOT, me claiming that the GT-R is not more advanced than the Evo.

Despite picking out sections or highlights of what I said can you identify the over riding THEME of the point I have been trying to make (for pages now...). Well clearly not. The point has always been that footie can not prove nor justify his statement that the GT-R is the most technologically advanced car on the road. I never once called him out officially as flat out wrong, I just suspect he is.

By the way a much better counterpoint/proof against footie's claim would be the Veyron. But I am not going to waste my time on specsmanship to try to prove that point either to a bunch of children who absolutely refuse to read, comprehend or listen.

I am also done with this useless part of this thread.
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      12-12-2007, 06:33 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadget View Post
you've yet to make a single worthwhile contribution to this forum
+14
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      12-12-2007, 06:38 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
I completely agree, if you use it and adamantly claim it's accuracy and post data from it, then you must really believe the validity of the program.
OK let me try to clear this up as well (for about the third time....)

-CartTest is a commercially available software tool. It is only about $40 or so by the way
-I did not write the software
-I do believe in its validity
-I wish it was a program that I wrote but I am much to humble to take such improper credit
-I believe in the validity of the program because it is just physics, as is the acceleration of a car and are the observable effects of the entire universe.... The default parameters of the software are a huge key ingredient in its use and they are typically good enough for relative comparisons and even have supported simulations that validate well on many absolute predictions with a reasonable level of accuracy as previously defined
-CarTest is NOT perfect

Enough said.
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      12-12-2007, 06:43 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Wrong again. You can't even read once sentence correctly can you? Stop putting words in my mouth, misquoting and interpreting what I said. SIMPLY READ what I said. You are so unbelievably difficult. What you put in bold is absolutely, 100%, NOT, me claiming that the GT-R is not more advanced than the Evo.

Despite picking out sections or highlights of what I said can you identify the over riding THEME of the point I have been trying to make (for pages now...). Well clearly not. The point has always been that footie can not prove nor justify his statement that the GT-R is the most technologically advanced car on the road. I never once called him out officially as flat out wrong, I just suspect he is.

By the way a much better counterpoint/proof against footie's claim would be the Veyron. But I am not going to waste my time on specsmanship to try to prove that point either to a bunch of children who absolutely refuse to read, comprehend or listen.

I am also done with this useless part of this thread.
Guys this has got out of hand, really. I forgot to use the term 'in my opinion' and even then it was still taken out of context, I was meaning everyday cars not ones costing 400,000 or nearer 900,000, the sort of cars we as ordinary folk can afford.

It's amazing how one simple slip up can cause such an up-roar and why I said this a while ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie
swamp,

Check out when I joined, I am new at this so excuse the lack of IMO etc and allow a little leeway at times.
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      12-12-2007, 07:06 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Pancho View Post
I really liked the icon used in the last post. Where do you get those things?
Click the [more] link at the bottom left of the smiles block
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      12-12-2007, 07:14 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leakybimmer View Post
It's ok...he haven't drove shit.....all he relies on are datas
we all know how that goes...... lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by leakybimmer View Post
let me just tell you...he cannot prove it.....lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadget View Post
you've yet to make a single worthwhile contribution to this forum
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Originally Posted by leakybimmer View Post
it's ok....this is a forum stop being a Borat
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
+14
Quote:
Originally Posted by leakybimmer View Post
+15
LeakyBimmer you are &^%$ idiot, you proved my point- thanks

ironic this post will be the one to be deleted by the mods for calling it like it is. Guess free speech doesn't apply-
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      12-12-2007, 07:35 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
I have read about the GT-R just as much as the next guy. Sure the tranmission and integrated transaxle mounted in the rear is innovative - mechanically speaking. All of the other AWD and traction control stuff may or may not be just as good or advanced as something like the forthcoming Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. Does the Nissan have AYC, for instance? Just because the car has a screen with hundreds of outputs from the engine, drive and chassis systems does not necessarily mean those systems are ground breaking. Your statment, "This car is the most technically advanced motorcar currently on the roads today" is simply speculation and I believe a product of the media hype about the car unless you can list multiple items, line by line, that are technologies that the car has that no others do.
So this statement does not mean the GTR is not more advanced? Because i think you're saying that the GTR can be just as good or maybe not as good as the Evo X's awd system. BTW, can you make your post any bigger.
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      12-13-2007, 11:18 AM   #132
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The GT-R is last week's superimport...in other words, sllloooww.

Lexus LF-A, Nurburgring 7:24

http://www.autospies.com/news/Lexus-...seconds-24268/
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