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      12-10-2007, 04:42 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Errr, sorry, no one was talking about reinventing the sports car. The talk has always been 911TT performance with an M3 price tag.
I never said that Nissan said this. This was just the underlying theme of most of the pro Nissan posts regarding the 7:38 time, both here and on other forums. Folks were attributing the time to Nissan's wonderful chassis, its super-advanced AWD and traction control system, suspension, etc. When in fact most of these things are not the real issues contributing to the time.

Even if "the talk" is your second statement and you consider an M3 speced to match the GT-R at base configuration the GT-R will very likely still more expensive by quite a few grand.

The car is clearly innovative and very fast, it also represents a fantastic performance per dollar. I just think it is a bit over-hyped.
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      12-10-2007, 05:27 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I never said that Nissan said this. This was just the underlying theme of most of the pro Nissan posts regarding the 7:38 time, both here and on other forums. Folks were attributing the time to Nissan's wonderful chassis, its super-advanced AWD and traction control system, suspension, etc. When in fact most of these things are not the real issues contributing to the time.

Even if "the talk" is your second statement and you consider an M3 speced to match the GT-R at base configuration the GT-R will very likely still more expensive by quite a few grand.

The car is clearly innovative and very fast, it also represents a fantastic performance per dollar. I just think it is a bit over-hyped.

I think everyone jumped the gun when Nissan released their time, unlike the German brands who are quite secretive about what times they achieve. But as some others have already said the SportAuto time for the GTR isn't their official time so we will all have to wait a little longer before seeing if it is as quicker as some of us believe.

As for the GTR being a bit over-hyped, I think this statement may come back to bit you on the ass. This car is the most technically advanced motorcar currently on the roads today and while is mean not prove to produce a significantly better time than the M3 in the hands of a true professional it's technology will prove to be invaluable in the hands of us ordinary folk and will be a total revelation in this respect.

I think the M3 is quite possibly the best overall driver's car currently on sale for less than 60K but if the GTR comes in under this price bracket then I think this opinion will be very short lived.
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      12-10-2007, 06:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I think everyone jumped the gun when Nissan released their time, unlike the German brands who are quite secretive about what times they achieve. But as some others have already said the SportAuto time for the GTR isn't their official time so we will all have to wait a little longer before seeing if it is as quicker as some of us believe.

As for the GTR being a bit over-hyped, I think this statement may come back to bit you on the ass. This car is the most technically advanced motorcar currently on the roads today and while is mean not prove to produce a significantly better time than the M3 in the hands of a true professional it's technology will prove to be invaluable in the hands of us ordinary folk and will be a total revelation in this respect.

I think the M3 is quite possibly the best overall driver's car currently on sale for less than £60K but if the GTR comes in under this price bracket then I think this opinion will be very short lived.
Funny coming from you when you value seat time so incredibly high. I don't suppose you have driven a GT-R have you? Your post very much sounds like you have.

I have read about the GT-R just as much as the next guy. Sure the tranmission and integrated transaxle mounted in the rear is innovative - mechanically speaking. All of the other AWD and traction control stuff may or may not be just as good or advanced as something like the forthcoming Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. Does the Nissan have AYC, for instance? Just because the car has a screen with hundreds of outputs from the engine, drive and chassis systems does not necessarily mean those systems are ground breaking. Your statment, "This car is the most technically advanced motorcar currently on the roads today" is simply speculation and I believe a product of the media hype about the car unless you can list multiple items, line by line, that are technologies that the car has that no others do.

By the way, AFAIK we already know GT-R pricing for NA, a hair under $70k right? This leaves the M3 pricing as the variable in comparing the two cars. However, that being said, I don't think the comparison is all that fair. Once is really a true two seater sports car the other is a track capable car that effectively blurs the line between sport and GT. The 911TT and Z06 are the closest true competitors for the GT-R, IMO.
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      12-10-2007, 07:38 PM   #70
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To answer some questions.

1. The fuel tank is molded under the rear seats above the transaxle.
2. The GT-R comes in three versions in Japan... all pretty much fully loaded. The black edition has upgraded tires and seats. The Premium edition has upgraded tires and the bose speaker / woofer system.
3. I haven't heard about the official price in the US but it is $68K - 74K without the 5% VAT here in Japan. Can be ordered and bought at MSRP with a 3 month delivery time.
4. Priced accordingly the M3 would have to have the following options... Cold weather package, Premium package, Technology package, 19" inch wheels (20" on the GT-R), Extended leather package. Guys that is around $10K in options. BMW better hope that Nissan doesn't sell a stripped version for less than $60K.
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      12-10-2007, 09:13 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I never said that Nissan said this. This was just the underlying theme of most of the pro Nissan posts regarding the 7:38 time, both here and on other forums. Folks were attributing the time to Nissan's wonderful chassis, its super-advanced AWD and traction control system, suspension, etc. When in fact most of these things are not the real issues contributing to the time.

Even if "the talk" is your second statement and you consider an M3 speced to match the GT-R at base configuration the GT-R will very likely still more expensive by quite a few grand.

The car is clearly innovative and very fast, it also represents a fantastic performance per dollar. I just think it is a bit over-hyped.
Since when did a car that does 3.5 secs to 60, 11 secs 1/4 mile and 192mph for $70k became over-hyped. I think everyone in their right mind would think that it's living up to it's expectations and hyped as well. Granted it hasn't proven or repeated the 7:38 Ring time yet. Let us wait and see if it could actually get close to that next time they run it in a completely dry track and make it finally an official Ring time.

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Originally Posted by Swamp
By the way, AFAIK we already know GT-R pricing for NA, a hair under $70k right? This leaves the M3 pricing as the variable in comparing the two cars. However, that being said, I don't think the comparison is all that fair. Once is really a true two seater sports car the other is a track capable car that effectively blurs the line between sport and GT. The 911TT and Z06 are the closest true competitors for the GT-R, IMO.
Which one is a true two seater sports car are you talking about? I surely hope you're not talking about the GT-R are you, because it really is a true 2+2. Not like a 997 that you can only fit a grocery bag or a small child. But i do agree that it is not a fair comparison, although i started a thread myself comparing these two but only because i was speculating that they might have the same base price.

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      12-10-2007, 09:32 PM   #72
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Since when did a car that does 3.5 secs to 60, 11 secs 1/4 mile and 192mph for $70k became over-hyped.
I'm not saying that's not impressive, but the Z06 Corvette has been doing that for some time now for the same price.
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      12-10-2007, 09:47 PM   #73
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I'm not saying that's not impressive, but the Z06 Corvette has been doing that for some time now for the same price.
I agree, but let's not call it being over-hyped either. And remember, the Z06 is 500hp V8 and probably at least 600lbs lighter. The mission is to have 997TT performance with 997 price tag, or Z06, M3, etc.
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      12-10-2007, 10:03 PM   #74
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I'm not saying that's not impressive, but the Z06 Corvette has been doing that for some time now for the same price.
+1. Thanks. The car is over-hyped. Look, for the millionth time, I am not saying the car is not damn fast, not saying it does not have a fantastic price to performance ratio, not saying it is not loaded with cool tech. It is simply over-hyped, period. JMHO. Nissan is certainly actively contributing to this over-hyping with the 7:38 time.

InJapan: I don't agree with your list, options nor $10k figure.

In order to get the M3 equipped like the GT-R base model is you would need:
ZTP: ~$3.5k (Technology package, mostly for the Nav)
Leather: ~$1.5k (not extended leather)
DCT: ~$3k
(and maybe Premium audio)
(Xenons are stock on the M3 as well)

Then at a $58k base you end up at $66k vs. $70k for the GT-R (before tax, title, destination and GGT if any). Additionally you can make the agrument that the stripper model of the M3 although not well equipped is a great option for someone wanting to get into a nicer car model at the least possible expense. So you can comapare base to base $58/$70 or similarly equipped which is then $66/$70. The caveat to the above analysis is the $58k figure which seem awfully likely at this point.
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      12-10-2007, 10:07 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
Which one is a true two seater sports car are you talking about? I surely hope you're not talking about the GT-R are you, because it really is a true 2+2. Not like a 997 that you can only fit a grocery bag or a small child.
Shades of gray - don't you think! At this point it is all marketing and labels not facts. Has anyone measured the actual available leg or head room in both cars? Any way you look at it they are both (GT-R and 911TT) NOT four seaters and neither have truly useable rear seats. A small win for the M3 if you want to make the comparison in the first place, there isn't all that much more it would win!
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      12-10-2007, 10:17 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Shades of gray - don't you think! At this point it is all marketing and labels not facts. Has anyone measured the actual available leg or head room in both cars? Any way you look at it they are both (GT-R and 911TT) NOT four seaters and neither have truly useable rear seats. A small win for the M3 if you want to make the comparison in the first place, there isn't all that much more it would win!
If neither one of us has the facts, then why would you call it a true two seater when it really has back seats for two. Granted i don't have the real dimensions, only pics and comments from people that has actually seen it, but it's still more than what you are claiming.

Last edited by gbb357; 12-10-2007 at 11:56 PM.
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      12-10-2007, 11:13 PM   #77
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On a somewhat tangential note, this is the kind of launch-related stuff that has me on the fence about DCT:

"It was so much fun that we tried two more launches, maybe that was a bad idea. Just after the third try, a warning light labeled AWD lit up telling us, "Houston, we have problem". This light show reminded us of Tokyo at night and also brought along a load of heat radiating through the rear center console."

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews..._r/index2.html

So much of everyday driving can involve "launching", and launching with DCT seems to be a ritualistic process that sounds like an intervention more than anything else. And in this case, there seems to be some mechanical issues as well that might be stemming from the fact that this car has tons of torque.

I am absolutely sure that DCT would be a blast to drive once you get the car moving, but the launch thing has me thinking...
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      12-10-2007, 11:55 PM   #78
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I know this is a bad pic of the Porsche's rear seat........

....but i think you can tell the size and space difference between the two.
GTR:

997:


And here's a "true two seater" sportscar. Notice how there is no back seats at all. Just take a look real slowly, take your time.



BTW, here's a vid from Car magazine. http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/video.php?illustration=259

Last edited by gbb357; 12-11-2007 at 12:19 AM.
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      12-11-2007, 01:10 AM   #79
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Funny coming from you when you value seat time so incredibly high. I don't suppose you have driven a GT-R have you? Your post very much sounds like you have.
Of course I haven't driven the GTR, but reading all the reviews so far from the likes of Autocar etc you can read between the lines you know that even the EVO X isn't as advanced as this.

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I have read about the GT-R just as much as the next guy. Sure the tranmission and integrated transaxle mounted in the rear is innovative - mechanically speaking. All of the other AWD and traction control stuff may or may not be just as good or advanced as something like the forthcoming Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. Does the Nissan have AYC, for instance? Just because the car has a screen with hundreds of outputs from the engine, drive and chassis systems does not necessarily mean those systems are ground breaking. Your statment, "This car is the most technically advanced motorcar currently on the roads today" is simply speculation and I believe a product of the media hype about the car unless you can list multiple items, line by line, that are technologies that the car has that no others do.
Read above swamp, you are arguing for arguments sake.

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By the way, AFAIK we already know GT-R pricing for NA, a hair under $70k right? This leaves the M3 pricing as the variable in comparing the two cars. However, that being said, I don't think the comparison is all that fair. Once is really a true two seater sports car the other is a track capable car that effectively blurs the line between sport and GT. The 911TT and Z06 are the closest true competitors for the GT-R, IMO.
Well this is why I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by footie
I think the M3 is quite possibly the best overall driver's car currently on sale for less than 60K but if the GTR comes in under this price bracket then I think this opinion will be very short lived.
and I think my comments are very valid and more relevant to us who are after all BMW M owners or future owners as is my case.
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      12-11-2007, 03:51 AM   #80
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If neither one of us has the facts, then why would you call it a true two seater when it really has back seats for two. Granted i don't have the real dimensions, only pics and comments from people that has actually seen it, but it's still more than what you are claiming.
Yes, initially I mistakenly called the GT-R a two seater, sorry for that mistake. However, any way you look at it, it is not a true 4 seater, period. I also said that calling it something different or drastically different than the 911TT is PURE MARKETING.
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      12-11-2007, 04:26 AM   #81
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Of course I haven't driven the GTR, but reading all the reviews so far from the likes of Autocar etc you can read between the lines you know that even the EVO X isn't as advanced as this.
...
Read above swamp, you are arguing for arguments sake.
I beg to differ. It is not arguing for arguments sake. It is simply calling a bit of .

Even if you may turn out to be right it does not mean you are justified to believe nor make the incredibly big and bold claim you made. Reading the reviews thus far the information they contain in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM justifies the belief that the GT-R is the most technically advanced car on the road (it is not even really on the road yet, but I will give you some leniency on this detail). Nissan and the magazines would very much like us all to believe this though. One point you (or I) could probably argue it that the GT-R has the most thorough and advanced ability for the driver to monitor the performance of the car in real time. However, until you can make even a simple little bullet point list for us, to justify your claim, I call complete speculation. I will be MORE than happy to rescind this call in light of your proof.

Don't you get tired of baseless opinions being promoted as FACT? I do and I know many of the other forum members do as well.

By the way the Evo is a VERY advanced and technically rich vehicle, especially its AWD and traction/suspension control systems. Read up a bit more on it before you dismiss is so handily. Other contenders might include the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano or FXX, Bugatti Veyron or Lexus LS 600h. In fact Lexus makes this exact claim themselves about the LS 600h! Again these are not my claimed winners of this title, just some possible ideas very quickly "off the cuff".
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      12-11-2007, 05:02 AM   #82
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OK, I was a bit premature to say the most advanced and you are right there are others which might be even more advanced, but all of your above list cost plenty more and in some cases up to 15 times as much, that statement was not meant the way it read. As most of the recent comments where how the M3 could possibly get close to this time with the RIGHT driver I was only meaning it was ONE of the most advanced and way ahead of the M3 on this front.

The EVO I have read about and though not the latest one, I have experienced most of the others at differing times and have had some experience of previous GTRs as well, I stand by what I previously said that the new GTR HAS a more advanced awd system, suspension and gearbox than the EVO X.

The biggest difference between the GTR vs the EVO and M3 to a lesser degree is that both of them are evolutions of previous models, the GTR was a total rethink and bare no comparisons with previous GTR only the knowledge that Nissan know how to make a bloody good driver's car with unbelievable grip and balance.
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      12-11-2007, 06:59 AM   #83
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Swamp, swamp.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I beg to differ. It is not arguing for arguments sake. It is simply calling a bit of .

Even if you may turn out to be right it does not mean you are justified to believe nor make the incredibly big and bold claim you made. Reading the reviews thus far the information they contain in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM justifies the belief that the GT-R is the most technically advanced car on the road (it is not even really on the road yet, but I will give you some leniency on this detail). Nissan and the magazines would very much like us all to believe this though. One point you (or I) could probably argue it that the GT-R has the most thorough and advanced ability for the driver to monitor the performance of the car in real time. However, until you can make even a simple little bullet point list for us, to justify your claim, I call complete speculation. I will be MORE than happy to rescind this call in light of your proof.

Don't you get tired of baseless opinions being promoted as FACT? I do and I know many of the other forum members do as well.

By the way the Evo is a VERY advanced and technically rich vehicle, especially its AWD and traction/suspension control systems. Read up a bit more on it before you dismiss is so handily. Other contenders might include the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano or FXX, Bugatti Veyron or Lexus LS 600h. In fact Lexus makes this exact claim themselves about the LS 600h! Again these are not my claimed winners of this title, just some possible ideas very quickly "off the cuff".
If you can speculate on something that has never been on the road before and you've never driven at all and make bold praises about it, why can't anybody else do it. You said it yourself that you don't have to drive it to know how it "feels". I'll agree that calling it the most advance car ever is a bit of a stretch. But it is and will be one of the most advance car available on the market soon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Swamp
What I find particularly entertaining about your post is your insistence that THE ONLY way to experience something or judge it is based on seat time. I wholeheartedly disagree. I personally have not driven a DSG (but have driven SMG). I have been down to a local VW dealer to play with the DSG in the GTI but kind of feel that I shouldn't/wouldn't be allowed to drive it really hard so I have not done that yet. Where do I get my inspiration from? Facts, science, physics, engineering, math and of course a good dose of analogies, educated guesses and ocassionally even some speculation. Many will immediately discredit such an approach but if you are not educated in these domains (math, engineering, physics) it is very easy to say "seat time is the only way to judge something or make any valid conclusions". If, however, you undestand the basics; calculus, shock and accleration, Newton's Laws, etc. using science you can really predict and understand in a very intricate, fundamental and deep fashion the "feel" and performance of a design without having driven it. Again it sounds strange but if "second time derivates" and "conservation of angular momentum" sound totally foreign than this concept will as well. Sure nothing can entirely replace seat time and of course all good engineers always want to get their hands on the "hardware" and actually test it and feel it. When you combine both - the experiential and the intimate knowledge you can have from the math/phyiscs side then you really will have the ulitmate knowledge and "intimacy" with a design. If you have only seat time and possess no understanding of the physics you are missing something big, important and insightful and you probably will never even know it. Neither method of gaining knowledge alone can provide full insight.
Maybe Footie and myself included are just inspired with the GTR and the M3 as well.
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      12-11-2007, 07:28 AM   #84
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BTW.

I have to completely disagree with that statement that you don't have to drive a car to know how it "feels". When people are talking about how a car "feels" when driving it, they're not neccessarily talking about it in technical terms or literally, it's deeper than that. It's about the emotion that is involved while driving a car. The emotion part that you're going through is what makes a car feel special. That's something you can't analyze just by doing the math or science. It's like saying you don't have to taste the food to know how it taste. Or even worse, it's like saying you don't need to have sex to know how it feels to have sex. Okay, maybe that's going too far, LOL. You get my point. I do appreciate the fact that you are very passionate about the engineering and science part about cars. I think most people don't have that intricate knowledge about cars unlike you and some of the other members here does. And it's quite entertaining.
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      12-11-2007, 08:56 AM   #85
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+1. Thanks. The car is over-hyped. Look, for the millionth time, I am not saying the car is not damn fast, not saying it does not have a fantastic price to performance ratio, not saying it is not loaded with cool tech. It is simply over-hyped, period. JMHO. Nissan is certainly actively contributing to this over-hyping with the 7:38 time.

InJapan: I don't agree with your list, options nor $10k figure.

In order to get the M3 equipped like the GT-R base model is you would need:
ZTP: ~$3.5k (Technology package, mostly for the Nav)
Leather: ~$1.5k (not extended leather)
DCT: ~$3k
(and maybe Premium audio)
(Xenons are stock on the M3 as well)

Then at a $58k base you end up at $66k vs. $70k for the GT-R (before tax, title, destination and GGT if any). Additionally you can make the agrument that the stripper model of the M3 although not well equipped is a great option for someone wanting to get into a nicer car model at the least possible expense. So you can comapare base to base $58/$70 or similarly equipped which is then $66/$70. The caveat to the above analysis is the $58k figure which seem awfully likely at this point.
You forgot the $1400 for the 19" wheels, the GT-R has leather extending over the dash on the drivers side.. so it's equal to the extended leather on the M3 which should be $2100. Also you would need the full Premium package at $2500 because of the Bluetooth and all the other electronic bells.
That makes the M3 closer to $69-70k and I believe the GT-R is starting with all the above at $68k. So for someone looking at a loaded M3 coupe the GT-R maybe a better value.
I'm in a different situation. I need 4 doors, I get the $7k+ military discount and I can avoid the big taxes shipping directly from Germany to Japan. Also I will likely have the only M3 sedan in the country for several years
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      12-11-2007, 09:12 AM   #86
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I think the M3 is quite possibly the best overall driver's car currently on sale for less than 60K but if the GTR comes in under this price bracket then I think this opinion will be very short lived.
I thought they released the price at 50k pounds for the UK?
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      12-11-2007, 11:20 AM   #87
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I thought they released the price at 50k pounds for the UK?
I know the M3 is just over 50K but I doubt the GTR will be as cheap as that over here so put the bracket up to 60K to allow for this.
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      12-11-2007, 12:14 PM   #88
InJapan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I know the M3 is just over 50K but I doubt the GTR will be as cheap as that over here so put the bracket up to 60K to allow for this.
I guess I could be wrong but Nissan COULD sell it at 31k pounds, which is what it cost in Japan. I guess the Nissan could rape the English for whatever the market will bear.
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