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      08-22-2007, 11:39 AM   #67
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Proof is relative based on what you deem is required for proof. Prove to me that you exist.
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      08-22-2007, 11:49 AM   #68
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Proof is relative based on what you deem is required for proof. Prove to me that you exist.
lol, this forum is much more helpful than my english class.
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      08-23-2007, 03:14 PM   #69
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Canann's reaction as opposed to his brothers reaction is what was wrong. He merely saw his dad, and did nothing to protect him from shame. His brothers, upon hearing this from Canaan, protect their father. Furthermore, it was Noah who punished him, not God.
Canaan did not see Noah nudie dancing while sh*t faced. Canaan's dad Ham saw that. Noah was Gods prophet - virtuous and all that. He punished the innocent Canaan and God was cool with that.

If God was just then he would have told Noah off and called off the curse on Canaan.

Ham saw Noah's jewels - got that?

God is unjust and agrees with the punishment of the innocent - in this case Canaan was innocent.
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      08-23-2007, 03:18 PM   #70
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Are any of us innocent? Am I? Are you?
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      08-23-2007, 03:20 PM   #71
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Genesis 9:20-25 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
"Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers."

Here's the link: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5;&version=31;
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      08-23-2007, 03:21 PM   #72
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Are any of us innocent? Am I? Are you?
At least I do not tell people that they will burn in hell.

Sounds like God isn't pure either. God agreed with the punishment of an innocent grandson.

Looks like God messed up with Noah.... Should have drowned him too!!
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      08-23-2007, 03:34 PM   #73
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At the least? Who are you, or any of us to judge which sins are greater? And for the record, I do not believe I ever said that you were going to burn in hell and I apologized for the words and actions of others.

The grandson was not innocent. God's punishment for any man is just because all men are sinful. Although you may think in the scenario with Noah that his grandson was innocent, it does not mean he is innocent of sin as a whole.

All of mankind is sinful, including Noah. He is the tip of the iceberg as far as sinful people who God has used. Add to the list David, Solomon, Jacob, Paul, etc. etc.
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      08-23-2007, 03:47 PM   #74
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At the least? Who are you, or any of us to judge which sins are greater? And for the record, I do not believe I ever said that you were going to burn in hell and I apologized for the words and actions of others.

The grandson was not innocent. God's punishment for any man is just because all men are sinful. Although you may think in the scenario with Noah that his grandson was innocent, it does not mean he is innocent of sin as a whole.

All of mankind is sinful, including Noah. He is the tip of the iceberg as far as sinful people who God has used. Add to the list David, Solomon, Jacob, Paul, etc. etc.
The flood was to drown the sinful. I thought Noah got away because he was 'good'. Now you tell me in 2007 that God screwed up!!

Jeez! You know better than God. God has to be a fake if you know better.

I have done more good in my life than bad. I do not believe in the "all men are sinful" Christain belief. Let's just say that all Christian men are sinful. However, I do not believe that for a second either. "All" is an extreme (read fanatic) view from a cognitive stance of moderation. Let's revise it to "a fair number" or Christian men are potentially sinful

Is that rain I hear? OH CRIKEY!! Another flood - Run for your lives!!

Hang on - wait a tic! There is no evident to support the view that a WORLDWIDE flood occured. False alarm. It's just a wee bit of rain
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      08-23-2007, 03:54 PM   #75
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God chose Noah, that doesn't mean he was perfect.

You have done more good in your life than bad? How are you to judge what is "good" or "bad"? It ultimately depends on your standards. If you give money away to alleviate the guilt of stealing, are you really doing good? Biblically, God's standards of evil include even the thought of even. If you have ever looked at a woman and lusted, you have committed adultery. If you have hated somebody and wanted to kill them, you have alread committed murder. In this light, none of us are "good." And who said our good deeds wash away our bad? Just because we feel that we have done more good than bad doesn't mean the bad has disappeared.

I am done with this thread. Originally, this and a few other threads along the same topic have been a source of dicussion, honest questions, and respectable conversation. The mockery and contempt that is continually being shown is no different than racism and should not be taken lightly. I desire and hope that I have continued to respect other peoples' beliefs, although they differ from my own. I feel that I am not shown mutual respect, and therefor will not subjegate myself to that anymore.
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      08-23-2007, 03:56 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by fobunited View Post
God chose Noah, that doesn't mean he was perfect.

You have done more good in your life than bad? How are you to judge what is "good" or "bad"? It ultimately depends on your standards. If you give money away to alleviate the guilt of stealing, are you really doing good? Biblically, God's standards of evil include even the thought of even. If you have ever looked at a woman and lusted, you have committed adultery. If you have hated somebody and wanted to kill them, you have alread committed murder. In this light, none of us are "good." And who said our good deeds wash away our bad? Just because we feel that we have done more good than bad doesn't mean the bad has disappeared.

I am done with this thread. Originally, this and a few other threads along the same topic have been a source of dicussion, honest questions, and respectable conversation. The mockery and contempt that is continually being shown is no different than racism and should not be taken lightly. I desire and hope that I have continued to respect other peoples' beliefs, although they differ from my own. I feel that I am not shown mutual respect, and therefor will not subjegate myself to that anymore.

I am a judge of what I have done because I have been hanging out with me all the time and I know everything I have done.

Sure - run away. That is what people do.
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when the going get's tough the tough get going to another thread
But - before you run away. Why did God let Noah curse the innocent Canaan (- who did not see Noah's privates??)
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      08-26-2007, 07:40 AM   #77
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I will probably get burned for this question.

God (according to the monotheiastic religions started by Abraham) is a bit of a school yard bully. God has to be obeyed and if you don't then he will bust your ass in various interesting ways. You have to do God's rituals - otherwise God will bust a cap in your ass. You have to believe in various supernatiral events otherwise you ass is in trouble. God want's your money (lunch money anyone) otherwise you burn in hell. Give to your local friendly Religious Institution!!

God is an extremist! There is no moderation here. He will drown you (Noah story), burn/nuke you (Sodom-Gomorrah story), ask you to kill your kid (Abraham), tell you to kick your son and his mom out into the desert (Abraham, Hagar, Ishmail story), tell you to commit genocide (clear out the hold land of all Philistines), let his only begotton son get killed without doing anything (Jesus story), pick one favourite race/people (what did the Chinese do wrong here and why can't they be the chosen people??) etc. etc. etc.

God is pretty violent, hateful, vengeful etc. God picked the Jews as his chosen people.... Are they are superior race than the Nordics/African/Asian/Native/etc. peoples? God comes across as a racist & bully due to this.

So - what do you guys and gals think??
god, in the context of an old man with a grey beard watching over our lives and listening to our prayers to perform miracles is FALSE.

god isn't separate from us, or lives outside our universe. GOD IS OUR UNIVERSE. That's right. You, me, this computer, the sun, empty space; add it all up and it equals = GOD.

even though you are a part of god, you will die, but your energy remains in this world to take another form. obviously you'll never remember the life you lived, but you will live forever with God in some other way.
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      08-26-2007, 11:46 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post

I am a judge of what I have done because I have been hanging out with me all the time and I know everything I have done.


I really dont get it ... you ask a question and then when you recieve a answer you make fun of it.
- whats sad is that the person giving you the answer actually knows what they are talking about.... you on the other hand are simply here to critisize.... it is very unfortunete that you arent willing to open your eyes to see....

Its your life and you make the choices ... choose carefully
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      08-26-2007, 11:59 PM   #79
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I really think God is neither good nor bad. God is incapable of living out human exisistance so that's where we come in. We are given free will and full cognitive ability to try to control our lives. Of course control is the ultimate illusion and thus we are never really in control of anything. Imagine if you will a huge (universal in size perhaps) sound, light, wave proof space in which we live our daily lives. Oblivious to what's outiside of that space we kill each other, belittle one another, force our beliefs onto each other, etc. All the while God is learning our lessons, experiencing our experiences and loving our love. In essence we are all part of God. I don't really buy all the Old Testament (or New Testament for that matter) hocus pocus too much. Afterall the books were written by humans which have historically been known to embellish facts (or outright lie) in order maintain or increase their power over others.
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      08-31-2007, 07:15 PM   #80
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Are any of us innocent? Am I? Are you?
new born babies!!!!
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      08-31-2007, 08:34 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fobunited View Post
Proof is relative based on what you deem is required for proof. Prove to me that you exist.
"I think; therefore, I am."
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      08-31-2007, 08:59 PM   #82
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Nice, quoting Descartes. However, that does not apply because that only proves to YOU that YOU exist. It doesn't prove to ME that YOU exist. Try again.
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      11-28-2007, 01:39 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by enfield View Post

I am a judge of what I have done because I have been hanging out with me all the time and I know everything I have done.

Sure - run away. That is what people do.


But - before you run away. Why did God let Noah curse the innocent Canaan (- who did not see Noah's privates??)
During that passage Noah is conveying not only a cursing, but a prophecy. Noah foresaw that the moral flaws shown by Ham would be fully manifested in Canaan and in his offspring. Knowing this, the curse of God falls upon the Canaanites because of the sinfulness Noah foresaw. The Canaanites would be cursed because of their sin, not due to Ham's. I think this explains why Canaan is cursed and not Ham, or the rest of his sons. Canaan will most reflect the moral flaws of his father, and the Canaanites will manifest these same tendencies in their society. Because of the sinfulness of the Canaanites foreseen by Noah, the curse of God is expressed. In life, offspring often carry out the same traits as their parents, which are passed down from generation to generation. It seems that Noah understood that Canaan’s descendants would also reflect this rebellious nature. The descendants of Canaan indeed became some of the most wicked people to ever live on the earth (i.e. the people of Sodom and Gomorrah).

The curse of Canaan is an excellant example warning fathers to raise their children using godly principles. If this is not done in one generation, then generations to come will express their rebellious nature as seen in the wickedness of Canaan’s descendants.
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      11-30-2007, 06:53 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by uabimmer View Post
Really that is a poor comparison.

God gave people a right to choose... some people have chosen to do evil things. Who are you to decide who is innocent, and how do you know what is justified and what is not??
And who are you to tell me what your God wants us to do? Bible is a man-made book full of weird ambiguous stories that can be interpreted in multiple ways.

Please don't take higher moral ground because you believe without evidence. That is called delusion. And btw, bible is not an evidence. It's a book, just like Harry Potter.

I know what is right and what's wrong because I grew up in a secular humanist family where we didn't have to be good because we were afraid. We did it because we chose to.
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      11-30-2007, 07:03 PM   #85
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God doesnt want your money...
when you give to the church:
1. you are helping out this the church's existance
2. you are learning to be more humble and realize(if you believe in God) that everything you have is a blessing from God.

- You will not burn in hell because you didnt give money to a local church...
but those do not accept Jesus Christ as Savior are going to hell.
Does that include 1,5 billion Muslim, 900 million Hindu, 500 million Buddhist and 1 billion non religious people?

So all-merciful God will kill us all and then it will have us burn in hell for eternity? Because we didn't accept JC as Savior? What kind of a MONSTER is your GOD then? Are you out of your mind?

Have you ever asked yourself: What if I'm wrong? What if Allah is the one to believe in? Are 1.5 billion muslim crazy?
So you are a partial atheist since you don't believe in Allah?

I'm the same way except I believe in one less God than you.
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      11-30-2007, 10:23 PM   #86
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Does that include 1,5 billion Muslim, 900 million Hindu, 500 million Buddhist and 1 billion non religious people?

So all-merciful God will kill us all and then it will have us burn in hell for eternity? Because we didn't accept JC as Savior? What kind of a MONSTER is your GOD then? Are you out of your mind?

Have you ever asked yourself: What if I'm wrong? What if Allah is the one to believe in? Are 1.5 billion muslim crazy?
So you are a partial atheist since you don't believe in Allah?

I'm the same way except I believe in one less God than you.
lol....true that

you better pick a religion now...so you actually have a chance of guessing who the TRUE GOD...
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      11-30-2007, 10:33 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Does that include 1,5 billion Muslim, 900 million Hindu, 500 million Buddhist and 1 billion non religious people?

So all-merciful God will kill us all and then it will have us burn in hell for eternity? Because we didn't accept JC as Savior? What kind of a MONSTER is your GOD then? Are you out of your mind?

Have you ever asked yourself: What if I'm wrong? What if Allah is the one to believe in? Are 1.5 billion muslim crazy?
So you are a partial atheist since you don't believe in Allah?

I'm the same way except I believe in one less God than you.
Never seen the word partial and atheist side by side.

What if Christians are wrong and there is nothing beyond
the grave? No God? Ok, then they’re still as well off as all the rest.
If Christians are right about heaven and hell, they are winners
indeed. All others are eternally lost forever. Either way,
Christians can’t lose.
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      11-30-2007, 10:54 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by 8wwajd8 View Post
Never seen the word partial and atheist side by side.

What if Christians are wrong and there is nothing beyond
the grave? No God? Ok, then they’re still as well off as all the rest.
If Christians are right about heaven and hell, they are winners
indeed. All others are eternally lost forever. Either way,
Christians can’t lose.
Good point.
I'm assuming you are a Christian..??? (sorry if i'm wrong)
Because you stated that "either way, christians can't lose." which seems to be true.
But also if you see it from my point of view, I can't lose either way.

Last edited by leejoobin; 12-01-2007 at 01:28 AM.
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