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      11-08-2007, 08:55 AM   #67
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mkoesel,

As I guy who is already driving a V8 N/A I know the benefit of it and it's down falls, benefits being instant throttle response but they are real gas guzzlers, all of them and the M3 would be no different. The benefits of the V6 Bi-turbo is when not kaning the thing it's economy is similar to the V6 N/A engine which are easier than a V8, plus the tuning abilities are much greater, it's normally lighter which improves handling, it's shorter with less over-hang.

Maybe it's me but I just love the sound of saying 'Yeah, I drive a twin-turbo', how cool is that.
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      11-08-2007, 11:30 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Maybe it's me but I just love the sound of saying 'Yeah, I drive a twin-turbo', how cool is that.
Absolutely. But will you only consider the TT if it is an S4/S5, and not if it were an A4/A5? If so, why? As BMW is set to show us, there is room in the market for both the turbo 6 and the V8.
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      11-08-2007, 04:49 PM   #69
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Absolutely. But will you only consider the TT if it is an S4/S5, and not if it were an A4/A5? If so, why? As BMW is set to show us, there is room in the market for both the turbo 6 and the V8.

Maybe it's me, but the standard Audis never really appeal to me, unless it's a sportie model I can't get excited, the same applies to the 335i, I know it's a great machine and in M/Sport mode it looks the part, but there is a part of me which will always be saying you should have gone for the sports model.
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      11-08-2007, 05:25 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
In the US, the price difference between the 335i and S5 is quite large. The 335i starts at $40k, while the S5 starts at $50k. That is a 25% increase for the Audi. Because of this discrepancy, few people other than the enthusiast will make the connection between the S5 and the 335i. If the new S4 follows the S5 in pricing (which can be expected), the same price difference will be in effect.
That's not really true, let's look at some apples to apples numbers...

S5 6MT (base) , White Exterior \ Black Leather = $52,575
335Xi 6MT w/ 18s, Sport Pkg, Prem Pkg, Htd Seats, Sirius, USB = $48,420

The price difference is 8.6% when comparing similarly equipped cars.

-Adam
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      11-09-2007, 08:53 AM   #71
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Thanks Smoltz for clearly that up for us. So you are basically saying in the States spec for spec the 335i is only 8.6% cheaper. That's not that much and when you factor in the more exclusiveness of the S5 over the 335i, it more unique body panels, seats, dials, etc. over the normal A5 (something that the 335i doesn't have) and I reckon it's worth the difference in price.

But then I knew that as I did already pick the S5 over the 335i. Good as the S5 is though it's no match for the M3.
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      11-09-2007, 01:47 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
That's not really true, let's look at some apples to apples numbers...

S5 6MT (base) , White Exterior \ Black Leather = $52,575
335Xi 6MT w/ 18s, Sport Pkg, Prem Pkg, Htd Seats, Sirius, USB = $48,420

The price difference is 8.6% when comparing similarly equipped cars.

-Adam
According to audiusa.com a base S5 is $50,500 (White exterior and Black Leather are no charge), add the B&O sound system (to equal the Logic 7 of the 335Xi) and it is $51,350, not $52,575...

To answer the OP question: yes, I think that the S5 is a threat in sales to the M3. At less than $56,000 nicely equipped (Nav, premium audio, all the electronic options), nicely designed inside and out and great all weather performance, there's no question about it, IMO.

All out performance and prestige-wise, no it is not, and it is not its purpose. That's the RS5 job...
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      11-09-2007, 01:50 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
That's not really true, let's look at some apples to apples numbers...

S5 6MT (base) , White Exterior \ Black Leather = $52,575
335Xi 6MT w/ 18s, Sport Pkg, Prem Pkg, Htd Seats, Sirius, USB = $48,420

The price difference is 8.6% when comparing similarly equipped cars.

-Adam
True, but I don't want nor need most of that stuff, certainly not the AWD.

I think its very fair to say that, if Audi was set to compete for the 335i customer with the S5, then they would go ahead and offer the car in $40k guise minus some of those options. Its no secret that - whether you agree with it or not - the average consumer is attracted by (or repelled by) the base price of a car.

I'm quite confident we'll a 300hp+ B8 A4. Whether I'm correct about it getting the turbo V6 instead of the S4, well that remains to be seen.
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      11-09-2007, 02:02 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
According to audiusa.com a base S5 is $50,500 (White exterior and Black Leather are no charge), add the B&O sound system (to equal the Logic 7 of the 335Xi) and it is $51,350, not $52,575...

To answer the OP question: yes, I think that the S5 is a threat in sales to the M3. At less than $56,000 nicely equipped (Nav, premium audio, all the electronic options), nicely designed inside and out and great all weather performance, there's no question about it, IMO.

All out performance and prestige-wise, no it is not, and it is not its purpose. That's the RS5 job...
You have to add the mandatory $1,300 gas guzzler tax to your number.
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      11-09-2007, 02:15 PM   #75
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You have to add the mandatory $1,300 gas guzzler tax to your number.
That's true... it is not added in the "Build your S5" mini site. Thanks.
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      11-09-2007, 02:30 PM   #76
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Re the 335i vs the S5: Is it fair to say that you're getting V-8 rumble, AWD and exclusivity for an additional 8.6%? Not a bad deal....

BTW, I can't see how anyone can compare the M3 to the S5 - there in a different performance class..and the M3 costs $10,000+ more!
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      11-09-2007, 03:09 PM   #77
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You have to add the mandatory $1,300 gas guzzler tax to your number.
The fact that it's rarer should play to it's favour and mean it will hold more of it's value, so lets say you will get that $1300 back.
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      11-09-2007, 03:10 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
True, but I don't want nor need most of that stuff, certainly not the AWD.

I think its very fair to say that, if Audi was set to compete for the 335i customer with the S5, then they would go ahead and offer the car in $40k guise minus some of those options. Its no secret that - whether you agree with it or not - the average consumer is attracted by (or repelled by) the base price of a car.

I'm quite confident we'll a 300hp+ B8 A4. Whether I'm correct about it getting the turbo V6 instead of the S4, well that remains to be seen.
You may not, and I agree that for those that don't want that stuff the 335i is definitely more compelling. But for those that want all the gadgets (and most BMW owners do) and AWD (which most BMW owners do where I live) it's quite compelling.

Go to the BMW Dealer and tell me what the average price of a 335i is, most dealers load them up because that's what people buy. I agree with you that pyschologically people shop by base price, but most 335i's that aren't ordered have stickers in the mid to high 40s.

-Adam
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      11-09-2007, 03:12 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
Re the 335i vs the S5: Is it fair to say that you're getting V-8 rumble, AWD and exclusivity for an additional 8.6%? Not a bad deal....

BTW, I can't see how anyone can compare the M3 to the S5 - there in a different performance class..and the M3 costs $10,000+ more!
Regarding S5 vs. M3, I think it really depends a lot on what the M3 price comes in at and there is a lot of speculation but the only people that know for sure aren't talking (namely BMWNA)


-Adam
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      11-09-2007, 03:23 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
You may not, and I agree that for those that don't want that stuff the 335i is definitely more compelling. But for those that want all the gadgets (and most BMW owners do) and AWD (which most BMW owners do where I live) it's quite compelling.

Go to the BMW Dealer and tell me what the average price of a 335i is, most dealers load them up because that's what people buy. I agree with you that pyschologically people shop by base price, but most 335i's that aren't ordered have stickers in the mid to high 40s.

-Adam
Adam,

I don't want to say something out of place here, just in case you happen to drive a 335ix but I will tell you this, when you start to compare the x-drive to quattro there isn't any comparison.

Quattro has an uncanny nack at finding grip where there is none, the brother drives an X5 and where his car starts to spin the wheels due to very slippery conditions my S5 has no problems at all.

I am sure many here will disagree with this and show numerous evidence for it, I can only say what I personally have experienced.
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      11-09-2007, 03:52 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Adam,

I don't want to say something out of place here, just in case you happen to drive a 335ix but I will tell you this, when you start to compare the x-drive to quattro there isn't any comparison.

Quattro has an uncanny nack at finding grip where there is none, the brother drives an X5 and where his car starts to spin the wheels due to very slippery conditions my S5 has no problems at all.

I am sure many here will disagree with this and show numerous evidence for it, I can only say what I personally have experienced.
Agree... and most USA magazines as well have stated so: Quattro >> xDrive.
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      11-09-2007, 04:05 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
You may not, and I agree that for those that don't want that stuff the 335i is definitely more compelling. But for those that want all the gadgets (and most BMW owners do) and AWD (which most BMW owners do where I live) it's quite compelling.
Its an absolutey compelling car. But it is nevertheless a car that I don't believe is compelling enough to rack in sales like an A4 will. Because of this, I do believe Audi will build a proper 300hp+ A4 very soon so as to position themselves better in this segment. If I am wrong, then obviously I am dead, dead wrong about the A4 getting the turbo 6. But I think I am pretty likely to be correct about the former, and even reasonably likely to be correct about the latter.

Quote:
...most 335i's that aren't ordered have stickers in the mid to high 40s.
Quite true I'm sure. I'll also be willing to guess that most S5's sitting on lots are not the $52k variety you call out above either, even though the S5 comes with more standard equipment to begin with.
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      11-09-2007, 04:32 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Adam,

I don't want to say something out of place here, just in case you happen to drive a 335ix but I will tell you this, when you start to compare the x-drive to quattro there isn't any comparison.

Quattro has an uncanny nack at finding grip where there is none, the brother drives an X5 and where his car starts to spin the wheels due to very slippery conditions my S5 has no problems at all.

I am sure many here will disagree with this and show numerous evidence for it, I can only say what I personally have experienced.
I hate to get involved in this one, but just as Quattro does not refer to any specific AWD system, and the different systems Audi offers vary in quality, the same is true for BMW. I am guessing that your brother has the last gen X5?

BMW has made substantial improvement to their AWD system in recent years. The AWD in my 2003 325xi was laughable, I have heard numerous reports though that the newer system is substantially better, but I have no personal experience with it. I have also owned a 2004 S4 and although the system was far better than the 2003 325xi it is still not as good as my Subaru 2.5GT. Ultimatley it's all relative.

In terms of the 335xi vs. S5 AWD, I would be leery of declaring a victor without seeing an extensive test or conducting extensive testing of my own.

-Adam
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      11-09-2007, 04:39 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
Re the 335i vs the S5: Is it fair to say that you're getting V-8 rumble, AWD and exclusivity for an additional 8.6%? Not a bad deal....

BTW, I can't see how anyone can compare the M3 to the S5 - there in a different performance class..and the M3 costs $10,000+ more!
We already have established that from the first post. We all know that the M3 will blow away the S5 and it will be more than likely about $20k + more expensive. So how will it steal sales from the M3, simple, buyers that are new to this segment of luxury/performance cars or even some old customers might be satisfied enough of what the S5 can deliver. If you look at the performance figures that it has produced so far, it is very impressive and actually pretty close to some M3 figures. Now granted most people will probably never achieve those figures but the fact is it is attainable. Now a die hard BMW and especially a M3 customer probably would not give the S5 a chance. But then again the S5 might just be good enough or even better when you factor in the $20k discount.
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      11-09-2007, 04:45 PM   #85
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Good points bro. It leaves me wondering about how amazing the RS5 will be !
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      11-09-2007, 07:04 PM   #86
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Smoltz,

Sorry mate, I didn't want to sound arrogant. I don't know what version of X-drive is in the X5, it a 2005 model if that helps and the quattro system is the traditional one and not the Haldex version which is used in the TT and A3. I think it's a 40/60 split now which aids the sportiness of the drive but it is pretty amazing at finding available grip that's for sure.

You might be right about the newer X-drive but then again Audi is ever perfecting it's Quattro and the very latest one with this Sport Diff does sound like something one would expect to see in an EVO rally car instead of an Audi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357
We already have established that from the first post. We all know that the M3 will blow away the S5 and it will be more than likely about $20k + more expensive. So how will it steal sales from the M3, simple, buyers that are new to this segment of luxury/performance cars or even some old customers might be satisfied enough of what the S5 can deliver. If you look at the performance figures that it has produced so far, it is very impressive and actually pretty close to some M3 figures. Now granted most people will probably never achieve those figures but the fact is it is attainable. Now a die hard BMW and especially a M3 customer probably would not give the S5 a chance. But then again the S5 might just be good enough or even better when you factor in the $20k discount.
The S5 is good, really good in fact and I agree for many a person it is all you would ever need, but it's not the improvement I expected over the old cars (last A4) it's still very safe which is great from a personal safety point of view but it's still short on the entertainment compared to cars like the M3. If you were to ask me to be totally objective as to whether the M3 is worth the extra money over the S5 then I would have to say no, but the same would apply to the RS4, the S5 is enough car for anyone but who here buys a car with their sensible head on.

Will is steal sales from the M3, the honest answer is no, no one who has the sort of money to spent on the M3 would consider saving a few pounds (dollars) on the S5, these kind of people would be looking at the C63 or something else with it's kind of performance/image before they would ever consider this Audi. No until the RS5 arrives I don't think the M3 will have an concerns over an Audi taking sales from it.
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      11-09-2007, 07:13 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
We already have established that from the first post. We all know that the M3 will blow away the S5 and it will be more than likely about $20k + more expensive. So how will it steal sales from the M3, simple, buyers that are new to this segment of luxury/performance cars or even some old customers might be satisfied enough of what the S5 can deliver. If you look at the performance figures that it has produced so far, it is very impressive and actually pretty close to some M3 figures. Now granted most people will probably never achieve those figures but the fact is it is attainable. Now a die hard BMW and especially a M3 customer probably would not give the S5 a chance. But then again the S5 might just be good enough or even better when you factor in the $20k discount.
I hope that you realize that for your statement to be true, then an E9x m3 must be $71,000 base, as the S5 has roughly a $51,000 base price right now...
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      11-09-2007, 07:22 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I hope that you realize that for your statement to be true, then an E9x m3 must be $71,000 base, as the S5 has roughly a $51,000 base price right now...
I read somewhere that the base price is $75k, but that's not confirmed so don't quote me on it.
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