BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-07-2014, 09:15 AM   #67
Petros
Major
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Canada

Posts: 1,100
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3-S65 View Post
Well they are not marketing this to the practical and safe crowd so that comment makes no sense.


Your torque curve analysis would be interesting if we were discussing cars that were comparable in torque numbers. However, the Vette more than doubles the torque output of the M3...although it may be operating outside of its powerband more often than the M3 the torque it is achieving through its torque curve is almost double that of the M3 at any level.

Please explain why you feel that this is puny?
I agree. Heck, you can keep this Z06 outside of its power band the entire time and still blow away the M3. The Z06 has more torque at idle than the M3 has while screaming at 8400 rpm.
Petros is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2014, 09:23 AM   #68
Petros
Major
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Canada

Posts: 1,100
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Venom View Post
The M3 is no match for the Z06. Leave it at that. If someone's cross shopping the two, then they're doing it wrong. The F80 M3 is a turbo 3cyl sporty dd that can be fun on the track and the street. The Z06 will give you thrills on the highway and will demolish everything on the track. Personally, I'd choose the Z06 over an F80 M3 because the prices are so similar but the performance is out of the M3's league. However, it wouldn't be my only car. And that's the thing, the M3 can be your only car whereas the Z06 cannot (space, comfort, clearance).
Petros is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2014, 09:39 AM   #69
335iRlz
Major
 
Drives: 335i RiP,M3,f10m5 gone, m4
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: MD

Posts: 1,303
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3-S65 View Post
First a tune and a mild cam and straight pipes is not going to get a 505 HP at the crank Z06 to 700 HP at the crank......where does it state that he is at 700 HP at the crank?
.
Video says its 535whp when you open it up in youtube... 15% drivetrain puts it 630-650crank
335iRlz is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2014, 12:36 PM   #70
Ezio
Colonel
 
Ezio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: MI

Posts: 2,824
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Totally wrong conclusions there. The problem is the GT500 is not track tuned. The suspension is all wrong. It's designed for drag strips, not a road course. It's a dog on the track. A Boss302 is a much better platform for a track car. The suspension is dialed in much better and the car is better balanced.

It's quite ignorant and uninformed to suggest a Z06 is all about big power and just that. It isn't. The Corvette road car program is very closely intertwined with the race car program. The Z06 will have lots of engineering and technology copied from the Corvette race cars that do so well in endurance racing. In other words, it will have great handling and very good balance. The Z06 will be a blast to drive and will make the M3 feel like a boat in comparison. Even in the hands of an average driver going at only 8/10th, it will still be faster than 99% of the cars you see at track days.

And a GT3 isn't really any easier to drive than a Z06 either for a beginner. The rear weight bias and the presence of the heavy engine all the way at the back of the car make the handling of the car unique and unlike anything you may have driven before. You would basically have to re-learn driving all over again before you can push to the limits and extract the car's performance.
I guess your missing my point though. That is i feel the c7 Z06 would be overkill for the average person tracking there car. The car would be great for road racing though. I use to think the C7 z06 was the answer, until i started going to track days this summer. Talk to different people, and been in different cars.

I am far from saying the Z06 is only about power. This is going to be a supercar, and will be able to grip and feel much better tracking in the right hands.

I am saying people should respect it and admire the output of this car. But i wouldn't have the attitude where the Z06 is the best car for performance and everyone needs to jump ships right away.


I feel many people are having "GTR syndrome" where they read about the cars performance numbers and wanting the car biased off that. i will be honest, i also suffer from this syndrome at times.
__________________
Ezio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2014, 12:47 PM   #71
Ezio
Colonel
 
Ezio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: MI

Posts: 2,824
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
My only issue with Corvettes is that there are simply too many on the road, although the Z06 is certainly more of a rare bird.
i dont think i am never not seen a vette on the road while driving into town.

I remember my friend was telling me, "i am starting to see vettes more and more". They are becoming a "dime a dozen car". "You dont want that car. "
__________________
Ezio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2014, 03:01 PM   #72
1SerieStud
Brigadier General
 
1SerieStud's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 VO 1M (498 of 740)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Posts: 3,750
iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsweet View Post
What i said holds, sorry if it's too technical for you. hp / liter figure of merit shows this is an inferior engine to a DOHC german engine. Then if you FI and SC the DOHC it produces better results / liter.

If no other manufacturer are trying to copy anything GM does (except maybe other americans), then you know you are behind. Still trying to push the same old uninspired "supersize it", "more is better", chest beatin of old age noisy pushrods. No car looks as arrogantly cocky than a vette.
So yeah they've trying to bridge the gaps, now using FI, and you're so proud of their heavy magnetic fluids suspensions. But their mentality is still the same unrefined muscle car, producing worse hp / liter than german cars.
A OHV engine will never be as progressive, safe and linear to race than a DOHC. It's an inferior car to track at all levels.

A DOHC 6.2L SC FI would make much more hp than this vette. Why they don't make it ? because they know better than to make a useless car like this.
I'm 100% with you, then again, I AM an engineer lol reality is that I am not impressed by any domestic automobile manufacturer. I agree, their solution to everything is a bigger engine - and a pushrod engine at that. If you're going solely by numbers, then yes, the new Z06, the cobra super snake, the viper, etc are the way to go. That is not my thing, however. I prefer an all-around balanced car.

I don't want to speak for everyone, given that this is solely my opinion and we are all entitled to one, but for the most part it can be said that the average M3 driver could be driving a C6 Z06 if s/he wanted to.
__________________
'08 e90 M3
1SerieStud is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2014, 09:32 PM   #73
See5
Real Goon
 
See5's Avatar
 
Drives: Nothing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlanta

Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

I really don't see how the LT4 is considered to be a low-tech lazy engine. It still incorporates direct injection, cylinder deactivation, VVT, dry sump oiling with variable pressure oil pump, a TVS S/C that has been further developed than what Audi and Jaguar have done with it, and is only one inch taller than the LT1.

You guys keep talking about the large displacement but fail to realize that the engine itself is still relatively small and light especially considering its power output.

For the modding types, we've already seen the LT1 eclipse 1000whp on the stock block. The bottom end of this engine should be extremely stout.

GM will have something for the M3 crowd with the ATS-V, the Corvette moved out of the M3's performance league awhile ago. And judging by the ATS' reviews so far, the V should be a great drive.

Last edited by See5; 06-07-2014 at 09:38 PM.
See5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2014, 10:13 PM   #74
swanson
Convicted Felon
 
swanson's Avatar
 
Drives: chariot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NY

Posts: 1,503
iTrader: (0)

......

Last edited by swanson; 06-08-2014 at 11:21 AM.
swanson is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2014, 10:42 PM   #75
M3-S65
Banned
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA

Posts: 886
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iRlz View Post
Video says its 535whp when you open it up in youtube... 15% drivetrain puts it 630-650crank
But lets not lose sight of the reason the video was posted:
I commented that the Corvette dusts M3, stock to stock, $ for $ , Mod for mod...no contest.
Then someone put a video up trying to point out that the M3 supercharged kept up with a Vette with 700 HP.
However, if you watch the video you find that the Vette pulls hard on the M3 the whole way...and we then uncover that the Vette is not even supercharged, has minimal mods, and at the crank is ...NOT 700 HP. The real HP is not really relevant to the reason the video was posted because if the Z06 dropped in a supercharger ike the M3 in the video it would be an even bigger smoke down which was my point initially.

So we go full circle back to the truth again...from a performance stand point: Corvette > M3. Proven in quarter mile tests, and track tests.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying the Vette is a better car than the M3. I sold my Corvette for the M3 and the reason I sold it , can be best summarized by a reviewer I remember hearing. He stated something along these lines: The M3 is not the best in any category, but is second in every category and no other car is that good...making it the one car that can do everything...

Last edited by M3-S65; 06-07-2014 at 11:17 PM.
M3-S65 is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      06-08-2014, 01:12 AM   #76
Ezio
Colonel
 
Ezio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: MI

Posts: 2,824
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by See5 View Post
I really don't see how the LT4 is considered to be a low-tech lazy engine. It still incorporates direct injection, cylinder deactivation, VVT, dry sump oiling with variable pressure oil pump, a TVS S/C that has been further developed than what Audi and Jaguar have done with it, and is only one inch taller than the LT1.

You guys keep talking about the large displacement but fail to realize that the engine itself is still relatively small and light especially considering its power output.

For the modding types, we've already seen the LT1 eclipse 1000whp on the stock block. The bottom end of this engine should be extremely stout.

GM will have something for the M3 crowd with the ATS-V, the Corvette moved out of the M3's performance league awhile ago. And judging by the ATS' reviews so far, the V should be a great drive.
i wouldn't say the motor is low tech . Although i would say its kind of a lazy motor. Meaning the engine is built for lower revs and a lot of power down low. usually what truck motor is like. i am not calling it a truck motor though!

a engine being called lazy has nothing to do with how much power or how much tech the motor has in it. just listen to a E92 M3 V8 its really wants to rev and works hard for its power. IS one better than the other ? NO its just a different style of motors. A lot of those exotics use more of a S65 stye of motor. yet this Z06 will be faster or just as fast as some of them.

SO a lazy motor doesn't mean slow either.
__________________
Ezio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-08-2014, 11:26 PM   #77
pgviper
Lieutenant
 
Drives: X3 xdrive35i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: LI / BK

Posts: 400
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsweet View Post
LOL. So mister nissan/infinity driver you are saying an engineer shouldn't criticize something he didn't build himself ? that's funny and why not ? It's the opposite, we look at everything man made with a discerning critical eye and penetrating analytical mind, it does not have to fall under the umbrella of our exact field of expertise.

performance per dollar might be a selling point for the vette but it does not redeem its engineering which is not leading the industry at all.
"infinity" because the internet says everything about a person....

Chevrolet has one thing in mind, beat the competition.

You are very right in the mindset that an engineer has but we are also able to respect the accomplishments of others despite the path taken. You may not agree with the way chevrolet and the corvette team has gone about their goal but I for one respect the accomplishments that they have achieved.
pgviper is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 02:37 AM   #78
Ezio
Colonel
 
Ezio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: MI

Posts: 2,824
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
"infinity" because the internet says everything about a person....

Chevrolet has one thing in mind, beat the competition.

You are very right in the mindset that an engineer has but we are also able to respect the accomplishments of others despite the path taken. You may not agree with the way chevrolet and the corvette team has gone about their goal but I for one respect the accomplishments that they have achieved.
i honestly don't even think corvettes have a real direct competitor. Its nothing new for corvettes to be VERY fast and beat cars that cost much more. (performance wise).

there goal is more so, world class performance at a somewhat affordable price.
__________________
Ezio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 10:42 AM   #79
whats77inaname
Native Texan
 
Drives: when at all possible
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tx

Posts: 1,755
iTrader: (16)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i honestly don't even think corvettes have a real direct competitor. Its nothing new for corvettes to be VERY fast and beat cars that cost much more. (performance wise).

there goal is more so, world class performance at a somewhat affordable price.
Mmmmmmm....I'd say the GT-R a direct competitor.
whats77inaname is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 11:03 AM   #80
Petros
Major
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Canada

Posts: 1,100
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
Mmmmmmm....I'd say the GT-R a direct competitor.
And the Viper too. Except I'd say the Viper is a bit more of a niche product, with much lower production numbers and a higher price tag.
Petros is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 01:00 PM   #81
Ezio
Colonel
 
Ezio's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: MI

Posts: 2,824
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
And the Viper too. Except I'd say the Viper is a bit more of a niche product, with much lower production numbers and a higher price tag.
you could compare a Viper, but its about 30-40 grand more
__________________
Ezio is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 03:56 PM   #82
bogdan
First Lieutenant
 
bogdan's Avatar
 
Drives: Z06
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Rockville, MD

Posts: 363
iTrader: (0)

Reading this thread, I could swear some of you guys get your auto knowledge from scribble written in a bathroom stall. I hope real life is much different for some of you.

Yes, the new C7 Z06 is going to be mighty impressive. Why shouldn't it be? It's designed as a sports car, where they're not catering to extra passengers. I can't wait to see comparisons against other 2-seaters.
__________________
E90 M3-gone|E92 335i-gone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjolnir View Post
My dog swallowed my FOB. Luckily it was Comfort Access so I could still drive the car. Of course I had to take him with me everywhere and every time he rolled over the windows went down.

Last edited by bogdan; 06-09-2014 at 06:02 PM.
bogdan is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 05:19 PM   #83
adc
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

Posts: 4,130
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AshyLarryMP View Post
I'll keep the E92 as long as it doesn't start breaking down.
Better get an extended warranty just in case. My Route 66 warranty just saved me over $3k two weeks ago, with 41k miles on the car.

It's not a question of if, just a question of when your throttle actuators will let go.


That said, the Z06 is not necessarily more reliable at all. Plenty of stories of broken down cars with the C6 generation, and with the C7 being more complex...
__________________

2009 E90 M3 ED
2014 X1 28i ED
adc is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 09:36 PM   #84
Petros
Major
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Canada

Posts: 1,100
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Better get an extended warranty just in case. My Route 66 warranty just saved me over $3k two weeks ago, with 41k miles on the car.

It's not a question of if, just a question of when your throttle actuators will let go.


That said, the Z06 is not necessarily more reliable at all. Plenty of stories of broken down cars with the C6 generation, and with the C7 being more complex...
Well, even if it isn't more reliable, it'll at least be cheaper to fix. A $1000 for a simple throttle actuator is just a very unfunny joke, especially when both fail within a year as mine did.
Petros is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 09:43 PM   #85
TrevorM3
Major
 
Drives: S54
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Florida

Posts: 1,375
iTrader: (0)

the m3 fanboyism is strong in this thread.
TrevorM3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 10:03 PM   #86
JAM3S
Lieutenant
 
JAM3S's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Charlotte

Posts: 586
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorM3 View Post
the m3 fanboyism is strong in this thread.
This. BMW drivers period are overall a very insecure bunch.

LOL @ bragging about a usable back seat and a more comfy interior. I can count on 1 hand in the years ive had my E92 that someone has actually sat in the back seat. The car still looks brand new back there.

I never liked Vettes and even I can admit the new Z06 is a game changer and I would be first in line to get one.
JAM3S is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-09-2014, 10:32 PM   #87
swanson
Convicted Felon
 
swanson's Avatar
 
Drives: chariot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NY

Posts: 1,503
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM3S View Post
This. BMW drivers period are overall a very insecure bunch.

LOL @ bragging about a usable back seat and a more comfy interior. I can count on 1 hand in the years ive had my E92 that someone has actually sat in the back seat. The car still looks brand new back there.

I never liked Vettes and even I can admit the new Z06 is a game changer and I would be first in line to get one.


Extremely.
swanson is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-10-2014, 07:04 AM   #88
highrevs
New Member
 
Drives: 2007 335xi
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: USA, VA

Posts: 9
iTrader: (0)

Well, having owned an M3, a 335, and a C6 Z06 I can understand both sides of the argument. From a historical and engineering perspective, I would have been a lot more impressed with a C7 Z06 with a 3100 lb curb weight, an improved LS7 derivative making say 560 hp (NA), a 7200 RPM redline, and better materials and build quality. When you start digging into what they actually engineered there are some pretty significant compromises that conflict with what a Z06 has typically stood for. There's a heavier drive shaft to handle vibrations that occur when the AFM engages. The frame is thicker/heavier to enable the removable roof and convertible model. So it does kind of seem like they engineered the car with a "slap a supercharger on it" mentality to compensate for features [weight] that only a fraction of owners are going to care about. Now on the flip side, I REALLY like Corvettes, especially the C6 Z06. What makes it so special is that it's more than the sum of its parts. Its specs (excluding performance numbers) are much closer to the base models than ZR1. But its performance is much closer to the ZR1. THAT is incredible engineering. Now in comparison to DOHC engines, smaller displacement with FI, etc., it took some time for me to learn this, but they are all means to the same end. One could argue that the GT-R engine is much more sophisticated, but in the end all that fancy technology does is just add in more air and fuel, to make comparable power.

The new Z06 probably should have been the new ZR1. But that's just my opinion. A lot of people are really amazed by the new car and who am I to rain on their parade?

P.S. they clearly did outstanding jobs with a lot of items though. Interior is a huge step forward. Aerodynamics and styling are incredible.

Last edited by highrevs; 06-10-2014 at 10:29 AM.
highrevs is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:05 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST