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      10-24-2007, 02:34 PM   #23
Hans Delbruck
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It was Sam Mitani.

There is nothing wrong IMO with making high performance driving easier and I think the Evo X and E92 M3 will both excel in this area. I agree with your comments about getting in over your head but hey with systems as thorough and good as DSC I say, "why not".

I am really divided on this issue.

I am happy the M3 has M-DCT, no doubt. I am happy that modern cars with a lot of HP have the technology and chassis to allow drivers to USE all of the HP.

I have some personal issues with (what I have seen to be) the majority of Evo track drivers. With AWD, and now all the stability management systems, along with an auto trans.... this car will be dangerous IMO.

Put in a personally biased way.... how are you "experienced" track guys with E92 M3s going to feel when you're busting your butt to keep up with, and likely falling behind, a chipped Evo X with a newbie behind the wheel, running his first track day? Then he goes home and says "I was running with M3s" That's what I mean..... these are the things that pi$$ me off. Sorry I got OT but I wanted to post this somewhere!

BTW I just bought a 2004 S2000 for dedicated track duty and I have no doubt newbies in their AWD rice bombs will be passing me "all day long" in the straights. In the corners, I will have to fight with those guys, because when they see their fast lap times ("look at that! I must be really good!") they won't want to let me by in the corners either...... That's about the time they understeer right off the track, dig in and go boom.

My rant is getting out of hand. Sorry for the OT drivel.

Last edited by Hans Delbruck; 10-24-2007 at 02:45 PM. Reason: clarifying senseless rant :-)
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      10-24-2007, 03:08 PM   #24
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Put in a personally biased way.... how are you "experienced" track guys with E92 M3s going to feel when you're busting your butt to keep up with, and likely falling behind, a chipped Evo X with a newbie behind the wheel, running his first track day? Then he goes home and says "I was running with M3s" That's what I mean..... these are the things that pi$$ me off. Sorry I got OT but I wanted to post this somewhere!

BTW I just bought a 2004 S2000 for dedicated track duty and I have no doubt newbies in their AWD rice bombs will be passing me "all day long" in the straights. In the corners, I will have to fight with those guys, because when they see their fast lap times ("look at that! I must be really good!") they won't want to let me by in the corners either...... That's about the time they understeer right off the track, dig in and go boom.

My rant is getting out of hand. Sorry for the OT drivel.
Sounds like you have some work left to do. That didn't happen to me The diffrence in lap times between GOOD experienced drivers and newbies is dramatic. Take THill. A newbie in an Evo or M3 usually lands in the 2:2x range, if they have a really prepped up car they might get to high 2:1x. Most of the good M3 drivers I know can pull low 2:1x with a stock car, and with a little setup 2:0x. In my little 190hp elise which has no power in the straights I was doing ~2:03 simply because I carried speed. Want to pass them, carry speed through 1, out brake them into 2 and then pass them on the inside.

Even laguna seca with is a pure power and brake track, same thing. Nothing upsets a ferrari owner like passing them under braking into turn 2.
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      10-24-2007, 03:30 PM   #25
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Your Elise also weighs about 900 pounds less than an S2K. enigma, I've seen your driving videos and you are very impressive, no argument there. We also have an Elise.


That's me demonstrating its body roll capabilities in a high speed sweeper. I prefer the driving dynamics of the S2K, plus I like its power steering. Also, I don't get power loss in T2 and T3 at Spring Mtn in the Honda like I did in the Elise!

But back on point.... err um, my OT point.... (I guess your newbies aren't as fast in NorCal as they are in SoCal ) Yes, I have a lot of work to do. If I tracked my Evo I'd never know that though. I'd just continue to step on the gas and steer and blissfully turn fast lap times.
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      10-24-2007, 03:38 PM   #26
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I'm still debating if I want to take the E92 out for a few test laps to see how it compares to the other cars. It will definatly see some AutoX use, but not sure if I want to start frying brakes.
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      10-24-2007, 03:39 PM   #27
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OK I have one more wild rant I just conjured up.

I think the new Evo is perfect for today's drivers. After all, we're living in a time where instant gratification is the norm. Internet, cell phones, fast food, everything in an instant. Everything right now or I'll get impatient! So now when you get to the track, you don't even have to *work* to perfect your driving skills to go fast. Just buy an Evo. It's the perfect car! Hop in and be fast instantly. No work, Done!
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      10-24-2007, 03:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I'm still debating if I want to take the E92 out for a few test laps to see how it compares to the other cars. It will definatly see some AutoX use, but not sure if I want to start frying brakes.

From what I have seen, I am sure you will be fast in anything. It will probably be hard for you to step back into an M3 on the track, since you're used to the Elise. But it will make a nice back-up!
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      10-24-2007, 06:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
I am really divided on this issue.

I am happy the M3 has M-DCT, no doubt. I am happy that modern cars with a lot of HP have the technology and chassis to allow drivers to USE all of the HP.

I have some personal issues with (what I have seen to be) the majority of Evo track drivers. With AWD, and now all the stability management systems, along with an auto trans.... this car will be dangerous IMO.

Put in a personally biased way.... how are you "experienced" track guys with E92 M3s going to feel when you're busting your butt to keep up with, and likely falling behind, a chipped Evo X with a newbie behind the wheel, running his first track day? Then he goes home and says "I was running with M3s" That's what I mean..... these are the things that pi$$ me off. Sorry I got OT but I wanted to post this somewhere!

BTW I just bought a 2004 S2000 for dedicated track duty and I have no doubt newbies in their AWD rice bombs will be passing me "all day long" in the straights. In the corners, I will have to fight with those guys, because when they see their fast lap times ("look at that! I must be really good!") they won't want to let me by in the corners either...... That's about the time they understeer right off the track, dig in and go boom.

My rant is getting out of hand. Sorry for the OT drivel.
Well you can't look to me as an "experienced" track guy - keep talking with enigma. Heck you probably have a lot more track hours yourself than me with your "stable". My track excursions are limited to a few times a year. That being said I try to make up for that on twisty and empty So. Cal. mountain and canyon days.

Where are reasonable and reliable chipped Evo X's going to end up on tq and hp? Agian just a chip, not a chip that requires intake, exhaust, cooling, etc.

E92 M3 owners will have to be very careful with their egos and modded Evo's, myself included! However, it won't be too hard to focus on the drastic differences between the cars for me, those not related to ultimate street or track performance.
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      10-24-2007, 07:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Where are reasonable and reliable chipped Evo X's going to end up on tq and hp? Agian just a chip, not a chip that requires intake, exhaust, cooling, etc.

E92 M3 owners will have to be very careful with their egos and modded Evo's, myself included! However, it won't be too hard to focus on the drastic differences between the cars for me, those not related to ultimate street or track performance.
The Evo 9's made tuning for HP a lot easier than the 8's. With the 9, a chip alone will give you 380 crank HP, according to Vishnu/shiv....

http://www.vishnutuning.com/evo.htm

I'm sure you can expect similar #s with the Evo 10. Perhaps close to 400HP with just a chip.

But your ego can be secure in the fact that it takes more skill to drive a RWD car fast than an AWD car!
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      10-24-2007, 07:16 PM   #31
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E92 M3 owners will have to be very careful with their egos and modded Evo's, myself included! However, it won't be too hard to focus on the drastic differences between the cars for me, those not related to ultimate street or track performance.
Heh, you have to watch your ego around all cars, modded or not. Its real, real easy to get schooled by an expert and you don't normally see them coming.

One of my favorite moments was at the relay race where team porsche was gloating early. They were sending out a 911tt for two laps agains a stock civic S on dot-rs. They were shocked and a little humbled when their tt couldn't overtake the civic.
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      10-24-2007, 07:18 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Heh, you have to watch your ego around all cars, modded or not. Its real, real easy to get schooled by an expert and you don't normally see them coming.

One of my favorite moments was at the relay race where team porsche was gloating early. They were sending out a 911tt for two laps agains a stock civic S on dot-rs. They were shocked and a little humbled when their tt couldn't overtake the civic.
Classic. Which track?
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      10-24-2007, 07:41 PM   #33
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Classic. Which track?
Thunderhill.

I was actually on the winning team that day with 2 miata's, my lotus, and an s2000. Basically all the low hp cars except the civic.

We realized after the event that we also had 3 instructors and me drving for our team which turned out to be more important that power.
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      10-24-2007, 08:26 PM   #34
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Would you say that BMWs dual VANOS system or the engine control unit with multiple 32 bit CPUs capable of 200 million calculations per second are "too complex" or subject to too many expensive repairs after warranty?
Yes.

On monday a co-worker of mine had to R/R the entire engine, tranny, exhaust, and subframe on an 08 Benz ML350 because of a broken balance shaft. Out of warranty, how much do you think that would've costed?

I've had to replace a $7,000 exhaust on an 06 SL55, many many $2,000+ instrument clusters on every model...there's a recall on every 07 C class because they have the wrong engine software...all 07 GL SUV's have incorrect oil dipsticks...the list goes on.

I know I'm talking about Mercedes, but you can't tell me BMW is any better...I've seen Bimmers fail the pre-delivery inspection with electrical problems several times.

More complicated systems = more potential for failure. Period.
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      10-24-2007, 10:39 PM   #35
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These are pretty detailed specs for the GTR, but the most important one is missing: weight!
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      10-25-2007, 12:28 AM   #36
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Here you go...official SPECS for the 2009 GTR
SpecificationsStandard Features

Specifications

...
Transmission
...
• Dual clutch design changes gears in less than 0.5 second (0.2 second in R mode).
Looks good but someones credibility is shot on the critical line that I mentioned: the dual clutch shift times. So this is a huge typo or unofficial specs or something of the sort. If you believe that the new swanky advanced Nissan GT-R dual clutch transmission will shift gears in the times quoted above we can not really continue a rational discussion on this particular point. Not to spoil the good reading/reserach you need to do, but I guess I can't resisit. These transmissions in general shift about 10 times faster than the specs you (they) quoted. Do you get it - a full order of magnitude faster. The times you quoted do not even match a good SMG system let alone the VW/Audi/Borg Warner DSG system.
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      10-25-2007, 06:20 AM   #37
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Quote:
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Looks good but someones credibility is shot on the critical line that I mentioned: the dual clutch shift times. So this is a huge typo or unofficial specs or something of the sort. If you believe that the new swanky advanced Nissan GT-R dual clutch transmission will shift gears in the times quoted above we can not really continue a rational discussion on this particular point. Not to spoil the good reading/reserach you need to do, but I guess I can't resisit. These transmissions in general shift about 10 times faster than the specs you (they) quoted. Do you get it - a full order of magnitude faster. The times you quoted do not even match a good SMG system let alone the VW/Audi/Borg Warner DSG system.
??

That is from the official press release.
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      10-25-2007, 03:34 PM   #38
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Missed that

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Swamp...did you read what I posted in the beginning? It's OBVIOUS the 0-60 times and other performance #'s don't reflect that!

The shift time should really be around .02 seconds, or about 10x faster than SMGII
Sorry I missed that important detail of your post. My snide reply was not really warranted. I do find it really suprising that this is an official document and they are quoting terrible shift times. Worse than a slow human!
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