BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion
 
GT Haus
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-23-2014, 07:44 PM   #155
Andy H.
Lieutenant
 
Andy H.'s Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 535i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 400
iTrader: (1)

It's the lame stream media, current administration, ideologue democrats and progressive liberal idiots making everyone who can't otherwise think for themselves believe inequality exits and that they are a victim and that the system is rigged.

Everyone has the opportunity to succeed. Is it easy? Hell no. Has it ever been easy? HELL NO! Does it matter what color your skin is or where you are from, etc? HELL NO! It's about personal responsibility and not being afraid to work hard to achieve your own personal goals. It's about developing a skill set and a hard work ethic. Are you a victim or a victor? The choice is within you.

BTW, Capitalism has made this country the most prosperous on Earth and we need to get back to it. Because, there has never been any other form of democracy that has provided the most for the most people in the history of the world. Don't believe it? Then name otherwise. And, we better hurry up and get back to it because unemployment is still double digit, if you factor in all the folks who've stopped looking, with the highest among blacks and hispanics, and median income up only .3% since 2000, 18 trillion in debt, highest tax revenue to the federal government in the history of our nation while running a 350 billion dollar budget deficit...you get the picture.
__________________
LIVE FREE OR DIE
Andy H. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2014, 09:41 PM   #156
Gle8
Private
 
Drives: 2007 Z4Mc
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Philadelphia

Posts: 58
iTrader: (0)

I've managed to stay out of it this far, but sometimes enough is enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
It's the lame stream media, current administration, ideologue democrats and progressive liberal idiots making everyone who can't otherwise think for themselves believe inequality exits and that they are a victim and that the system is rigged.
I really wish people would stop using inaccurate labels (conservative, liberal, etc) to justify their point of view or their disdain for 'the other side'. Both labels are inaccurate, both are meaningless, and both are made up. Stop it. Really. I want to accept/deny your views based on the merit of your ideas, not on the label you put on it. For the record, I think both parties are shit, and the labels you throw around only serve to perpetuate the dumbing down of the masses. Want to think for yourself? Then don't use bullshit labels to drown out real ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Everyone has the opportunity to succeed. Is it easy? Hell no. Has it ever been easy? HELL NO! Does it matter what color your skin is or where you are from, etc? HELL NO!
Spoken like a true white male. You think non-whites are on an equal playing field when it comes to employment and opportunity? How about women? And how about social and economic considerations? You can honestly tell me that a black female born into poverty has the same opportunity to succeed as a white male born into affluence? And say it with a straight face? Really?

And before you answer, maybe you should look up some facts and statistics.

I used to think like you. I was born in a trailer park, raised by a single (alcoholic) mother, and somehow managed to make my way into a semblance of financial independence. I've done alright for myself. And I thought if I could do it, anyone could. The only thing holding them back is their drive and intelligence, right?

Over time, I came to understand what it really meant to be a white male in our society. Through no doing of my own, I was born that way, and that means I have more opportunity in (this) America than those that weren't. Behind the intelligence and drive were the characteristics of my birth. And to gloss over that without further consideration simply because YOU made it is the worst kind of arrogance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Because, there has never been any other form of democracy that has provided the most for the most people in the history of the world. Don't believe it? Then name otherwise.
Except we're not a democracy.

http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gi...s%203-7-14.pdf

And lets say you don't agree with the above, it would still be a republic (in theory) and not a democracy.

Facts. Non-partisan facts. And unless you can separate facts from mindless labeling, your opinion will always be suspect.
Gle8 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2014, 10:09 PM   #157
Andy H.
Lieutenant
 
Andy H.'s Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 535i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 400
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gle8 View Post
I've managed to stay out of it this far, but sometimes enough is enough.




I really wish people would stop using inaccurate labels (conservative, liberal, etc) to justify their point of view or their disdain for 'the other side'. Both labels are inaccurate, both are meaningless, and both are made up. Stop it. Really. I want to accept/deny your views based on the merit of your ideas, not on the label you put on it. For the record, I think both parties are shit, and the labels you throw around only serve to perpetuate the dumbing down of the masses. Want to think for yourself? Then don't use bullshit labels to drown out real ideas.



Spoken like a true white male. You think non-whites are on an equal playing field when it comes to employment and opportunity? How about women? And how about social and economic considerations? You can honestly tell me that a black female born into poverty has the same opportunity to succeed as a white male born into affluence? And say it with a straight face? Really?

And before you answer, maybe you should look up some facts and statistics.

I used to think like you. I was born in a trailer park, raised by a single (alcoholic) mother, and somehow managed to make my way into a semblance of financial independence. I've done alright for myself. And I thought if I could do it, anyone could. The only thing holding them back is their drive and intelligence, right?

Over time, I came to understand what it really meant to be a white male in our society. Through no doing of my own, I was born that way, and that means I have more opportunity in (this) America than those that weren't. Behind the intelligence and drive were the characteristics of my birth. And to gloss over that without further consideration simply because YOU made it is the worst kind of arrogance.




Except we're not a democracy.

http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gi...s%203-7-14.pdf

And lets say you don't agree with the above, it would still be a republic (in theory) and not a democracy.

Facts. Non-partisan facts. And unless you can separate facts from mindless labeling, your opinion will always be suspect.
Victim mentality.

BTW, posting a link to a university study doesn't make it fact. Oh yeah, use a little common and pay attention to what's going on in the Nation.

Last edited by Andy H.; 04-23-2014 at 10:17 PM.
Andy H. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2014, 10:26 PM   #158
Gle8
Private
 
Drives: 2007 Z4Mc
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Philadelphia

Posts: 58
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Victim mentality.

BTW, posting a link to a university study doesn't make it fact. Oh yeah, use a little common and pay attention to what's going on in the Nation.
Exactly what part of my post exhibits a victim mentality?

And regarding proof, did you read the study? And if so, are there particular aspects of it you'd like to refute? Perhaps with facts of your own, with links and references?
Gle8 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2014, 10:34 PM   #159
Andy H.
Lieutenant
 
Andy H.'s Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 535i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 400
iTrader: (1)

Yawn.
__________________
LIVE FREE OR DIE
Andy H. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 05:21 AM   #160
fatpanda
Private First Class
 
fatpanda's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 E90
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Uranus

Posts: 109
iTrader: (0)

so according to online bookies theyve got hilary clinton in the lead followed by chris christie & marc rubio.

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politi...grp_ids=791149

http://www.chaaky.com/chaaky/46
fatpanda is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 12:06 PM   #161
Gle8
Private
 
Drives: 2007 Z4Mc
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Philadelphia

Posts: 58
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Yawn.
I'm sorry, I thought you were interested in intelligent discourse. My bad. Carry on.
Gle8 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 01:51 PM   #162
128Convertibleguy
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2010 128 Covertible
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mountains

Posts: 546
iTrader: (0)

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Everyone has the opportunity to succeed. Does it matter what color your skin is or where you are from, etc? HELL NO!
So a black kid born in a really poor neighborhood with lousy schools, poor health care, etc., has the same (or anywhere even close to the same, or even a good chance of) opportunity to succeed as a white kid born in an affluent suburb?

Just a little less than credible. <sarcasm>

But it's a popular far right conservative myth. It helps them sleep at night.

Kurt Vonnegut explains it well.

"Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. "

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 04-24-2014 at 01:59 PM.
128Convertibleguy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 02:09 PM   #163
i dunno
Lieutenant
 
Drives: a pair of legs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 408
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 328i  [0.00]
for a country that's mostly Christian, we certainly do not treat the disenfranchised in a Christian manner.
i dunno is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 03:39 PM   #164
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 569
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gle8 View Post

Spoken like a true white male. You think non-whites are on an equal playing field when it comes to employment and opportunity? How about women? And how about social and economic considerations? You can honestly tell me that a black female born into poverty has the same opportunity to succeed as a white male born into affluence? And say it with a straight face? Really?

And before you answer, maybe you should look up some facts and statistics.

I used to think like you. I was born in a trailer park, raised by a single (alcoholic) mother, and somehow managed to make my way into a semblance of financial independence. I've done alright for myself. And I thought if I could do it, anyone could. The only thing holding them back is their drive and intelligence, right?

Over time, I came to understand what it really meant to be a white male in our society. Through no doing of my own, I was born that way, and that means I have more opportunity in (this) America than those that weren't. Behind the intelligence and drive were the characteristics of my birth. And to gloss over that without further consideration simply because YOU made it is the worst kind of arrogance.

Except we're not a democracy.

http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gi...s%203-7-14.pdf

And lets say you don't agree with the above, it would still be a republic (in theory) and not a democracy.

Facts. Non-partisan facts. And unless you can separate facts from mindless labeling, your opinion will always be suspect.
You raise some good points about labels. But I don't agree with you about opportunities in the US. We have the best level of opportunity for everyone in this country, that the world has ever seen. Is every opportunity equal for all? No - but it never is. Victoria's Secret probably won't hire men in the near future for sales associates, and 1,000 other examples. To assume that white males have better opportunity in today's US society is not valid, and invalidates the achievements of everyone.

PS - kudos to you for breaking the cycle - that's never an easy road.
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>

Last edited by bbbbmw; 04-24-2014 at 03:56 PM.
bbbbmw is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 03:53 PM   #165
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 569
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
So a black kid born in a really poor neighborhood with lousy schools, poor health care, etc., has the same (or anywhere even close to the same, or even a good chance of) opportunity to succeed as a white kid born in an affluent suburb?

Just a little less than credible. <sarcasm>

But it's a popular far right conservative myth. It helps them sleep at night.

Kurt Vonnegut explains it well.

"Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. "
I don't recall anyone thinking it's "very easy for any American to make money" - I've never heard that anywhere. In fact, most people think it is not very easy, otherwise they would have more of it.

And to assume that the "rich and powerful" all hold that concept as a "treasure" compounds the invalid assumption. In fact, there are many, many foundations, funds, and charities founded by the "rich and powerful." And it also ignores that Americans give substantially more of their incomes to charity that any society on earth, ever.

I also wouldn't call the rich "the ruling class" in America - we all have the same vote.

I also wouldn't say that our poor don't have dignity - Kurt was most likely bipolar or schizophrenic, and apparently didn't travel much - the poor in America are certainly not without dignity.

Does a suburban black kid in America have the same opportunity as a poor white kid in Appalachia?
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
bbbbmw is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 03:54 PM   #166
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 569
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
for a country that's mostly Christian, we certainly do not treat the disenfranchised in a Christian manner.
What is a "Christian manner?"
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
bbbbmw is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 04:45 PM   #167
Gle8
Private
 
Drives: 2007 Z4Mc
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Philadelphia

Posts: 58
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
You raise some good points about labels. But I don't agree with you about opportunities in the US. We have the best level of opportunity for everyone in this country, that the world has ever seen.
I won't argue that, as I haven't done the appropriate research to have an educated opinion in a US vs world discussion. My original comment was based on the statement that race/religion/sex/orientation doesn't matter in the US, because it does. I wish it didn't, I don't know how to fix it, but it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
To assume that white males have better opportunity in today's US society is not valid, and invalidates the achievements of everyone.
I'm not assuming, I'm going off of data. Census data, income data, hell, even just walking down the street of any affluent neighborhood in the US will show you this.

That said, I in no way suggest that it should invalidate anyone's achievements. I got where I am because of intelligence and drive. I just don't fool myself into thinking it wasn't easier because of my race/sex. There is no shame in it, no cheapening of my achievements. I had advantages that others do not. It's just acceptance, because we can't confront a problem (and yes, I think it's a problem) without first seeing it for what it is.

And I guess that's what I'm saying. Too often people argue against an idea because they don't want to face truths about themselves or others that may change their carefully built image of what the world is and who they are in it. But it's only a blow to the ego if the ego is in need of a blow.

Last edited by Gle8; 04-24-2014 at 04:50 PM.
Gle8 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 06:27 PM   #168
128Convertibleguy
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2010 128 Covertible
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mountains

Posts: 546
iTrader: (0)

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
What is a "Christian manner?"
"Ten things you can't do while following Jesus".

The author is a Presbyterian minister.

10) Exclude people because they practice another religion.

Jesus was constantly including people and he did it with a radical disregard for their religion. We do not have a single recorded incident of Jesus asking for a person's religious affiliation before being willing to speak with them or break bread with them. We do have several records of Jesus seeking out those who happen to practice faith differently from him. There was even this one time when he used a hated Samaritan as an example of how we are supposed to take care of each other.

9) Exclude people for what they look like, how they were born or things beyond their control.

I may have mentioned this already but Jesus was constantly including people. Jesus had this rebel streak in him that actually sought out folks who didn't “fit in.” People who were different, people who were marginalized, people who were made to feel unwanted in one way or another held a special place in the heart, life and actions of Jesus.

8) Withhold healthcare from people.

When people who were sick needed care, Jesus gave it to them. If we are following Jesus, we will imitate him as closely as possible. No, we can't repeat the miracles he did but I've seen modern medicine do things that are about as close to a miracle as I expect to get.

7) Exclude people.

Last time. Promise. Jesus was constantly including people. It's a little concept called love. He was pretty big on it.

6) Let people go hungry.

When Jesus said, “feed my sheep,” it was about more than just a spiritual feeding. There is not a food shortage in the world -- there is enough for everyone. There is not a problem with having a distribution system capable of handling it. The problem is that we aren't very good at sharing.

5) Make money more important than God (and the children of God).

The love of money really is the root of all sorts of evil. We make choices about what we will do with our money every day. Our choices speak louder than our words. We'd rather keep more of our money than pay the taxes it takes to provide for those in need. We have a money problem.

4) Judge others.

“That 'speck of sawdust in your brother's eye' and 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' stuff? Meant it,” Jesus.

3) Be physically aggressive or violent.

Okay, okay. “Jesus in in the temple grounds with the money changers.” I'll give you that one but, other than that, Jesus both gave the example of and taught his followers to avoid violent behavior. “Put your sword away, (insert your name here).” It's important to note that while you might describe Jesus as aggressive in the temple grounds with the money changers, even then he was not physically violent toward people.

2) Use the church to hurt people.

For the most part, Jesus practiced Dudeism. That man could abide. However, there were a few times when he seemed to get more than a bit worked up. What could take this chill, peace-loving, Jewish hippie from 0 to 60 in the flip of a switch? Using an institution whose primary goal is meant to be love to hurt people.

1) Hate.

The one possible exception might be “hate” itself but even then hate breeds hate -- so best to avoid it.


From my minister recently. "Our goal should be to change the world so that, if Jesus does return, he'll look around and say.

"Yeah, that's what I meant."

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 04-24-2014 at 06:33 PM.
128Convertibleguy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 07:20 PM   #169
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 569
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
"Ten things you can't do while following Jesus".

The author is a Presbyterian minister.

10) Exclude people because they practice another religion.

Jesus was constantly including people and he did it with a radical disregard for their religion. We do not have a single recorded incident of Jesus asking for a person's religious affiliation before being willing to speak with them or break bread with them. We do have several records of Jesus seeking out those who happen to practice faith differently from him. There was even this one time when he used a hated Samaritan as an example of how we are supposed to take care of each other.

9) Exclude people for what they look like, how they were born or things beyond their control.

I may have mentioned this already but Jesus was constantly including people. Jesus had this rebel streak in him that actually sought out folks who didn't “fit in.” People who were different, people who were marginalized, people who were made to feel unwanted in one way or another held a special place in the heart, life and actions of Jesus.

8) Withhold healthcare from people.

When people who were sick needed care, Jesus gave it to them. If we are following Jesus, we will imitate him as closely as possible. No, we can't repeat the miracles he did but I've seen modern medicine do things that are about as close to a miracle as I expect to get.

7) Exclude people.

Last time. Promise. Jesus was constantly including people. It's a little concept called love. He was pretty big on it.

6) Let people go hungry.

When Jesus said, “feed my sheep,” it was about more than just a spiritual feeding. There is not a food shortage in the world -- there is enough for everyone. There is not a problem with having a distribution system capable of handling it. The problem is that we aren't very good at sharing.

5) Make money more important than God (and the children of God).

The love of money really is the root of all sorts of evil. We make choices about what we will do with our money every day. Our choices speak louder than our words. We'd rather keep more of our money than pay the taxes it takes to provide for those in need. We have a money problem.

4) Judge others.

“That 'speck of sawdust in your brother's eye' and 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' stuff? Meant it,” Jesus.

3) Be physically aggressive or violent.

Okay, okay. “Jesus in in the temple grounds with the money changers.” I'll give you that one but, other than that, Jesus both gave the example of and taught his followers to avoid violent behavior. “Put your sword away, (insert your name here).” It's important to note that while you might describe Jesus as aggressive in the temple grounds with the money changers, even then he was not physically violent toward people.

2) Use the church to hurt people.

For the most part, Jesus practiced Dudeism. That man could abide. However, there were a few times when he seemed to get more than a bit worked up. What could take this chill, peace-loving, Jewish hippie from 0 to 60 in the flip of a switch? Using an institution whose primary goal is meant to be love to hurt people.

1) Hate.

The one possible exception might be “hate” itself but even then hate breeds hate -- so best to avoid it.


From my minister recently. "Our goal should be to change the world so that, if Jesus does return, he'll look around and say.

"Yeah, that's what I meant."
I completely agree with 10, 9, 7, 5, 4, 2, and 1. On the others:

8 - Whomever wrote this is trying to extend it to the political discussion of healthcare. Jesus also asked the paralytic at the pool "Do you want to get well?" - the context of the story implies that the man was not taking ownership of his issues, and was relying on others to sort it out.

6 - In this situation, he was indeed talking about spiritual feeding - not physical. There are many other situations where he spoke about physical feeding, but not this one. Jesus also "acted locally" - he fed those around him, and instructed us to do the same individually. From a social perspective, his attitude is why we have food stamps and many other social programs, as well the thousands of Christian churches in the US that have food giveaway programs for the needy.

3 - The "put your sword away" situation was a bit different, in that he was referring to his destiny. Jesus also told the disciples to "pick up your purse and your sword" - clearly indicating he did not expect them to be defenseless in the world. Regarding the money changers - he drove them out with a bullwhip - I believe he was physically aggressive.

These are my interpretations, of course - God may speak to others differently.
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
bbbbmw is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 08:46 PM   #170
fatpanda
Private First Class
 
fatpanda's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 E90
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Uranus

Posts: 109
iTrader: (0)

Is it possible to not include religion while discussing politics?
fatpanda is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 09:06 PM   #171
128Convertibleguy
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2010 128 Covertible
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mountains

Posts: 546
iTrader: (0)

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post

8 - Jesus also asked the paralytic at the pool "Do you want to get well?" - the context of the story implies that the man was not taking ownership of his issues, and was relying on others to sort it out.
I don't see it. Jesus asked the man if he wanted to get well, the man clearly just couldn't comprehend the possibility after years of illness, and responds about the issues he had that flowed out of his illness. Jesus interrupts and repeats the question, the man comprehends and says yes. Jesus cured him. Pretty simple. Nothing implies the man was somehow responsible for his condition because of some character flaw, he was simply overwhelmed by it. Jesus is not blaming him (that would be really out of character), he's asking for trust in that instant.

"Not taking ownership" implies the man was somehow responsible for his condition, that if he had any character, he wouldn't be paralyzed, or he would magically float into the pool. That's really stretching.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 04-24-2014 at 09:13 PM.
128Convertibleguy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-24-2014, 09:27 PM   #172
Andy H.
Lieutenant
 
Andy H.'s Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 535i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 400
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
So a black kid born in a really poor neighborhood with lousy schools, poor health care, etc., has the same (or anywhere even close to the same, or even a good chance of) opportunity to succeed as a white kid born in an affluent suburb?

Just a little less than credible. <sarcasm>

But it's a popular far right conservative myth. It helps them sleep at night.

Kurt Vonnegut explains it well.

"Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. "
Again, it has nothing to do with the color of ones skin or ethnicity. Following your ignorant logic no one who has ever been born poor, with a poor education system, and poor healthcare has ever achieved success. What a joke!!

It has everything to do with the family and responsibility of the parents. Think it through.

Vonnegut is an idiot. Anyone with an inkling of common sense knows that people who have no money blame and blame and blame everyone else - just like you are doing. It is the victim mentality. Whoever said success was easy? You have to work for it. Take a look around any city in America. Why is it that poor people come to America leaving their homeland behind? Opportunity. I see successful foreign run businesses everywhere. Foreign restaurant chains, beauty salons, print shops, landscaping services, etc. And yet, many Americans would rather live off the welfare systems instead of getting off their ass and finding a job, learning a skill set, and working there way up the ladder. Pathetic. Oh, and selling drugs isn't a job. Anything that offers the appeal or allure of getting rich quick is a short road to failure.
__________________
LIVE FREE OR DIE

Last edited by Andy H.; 04-24-2014 at 10:11 PM.
Andy H. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-25-2014, 12:25 AM   #173
128Convertibleguy
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2010 128 Covertible
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mountains

Posts: 546
iTrader: (0)

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Again, it has nothing to do with the color of ones skin or ethnicity. Following your ignorant logic no one who has ever been born poor, with a poor education system, and poor healthcare has ever achieved success.
This straw man argument says utterly nothing about my logic. There's a gigantic gap between saying "success in life has much to do with circumstances of birth" and saying "no single individual from a disadvantaged beginning has ever achieved success". The former, which you have repeatedly denied, is known by most everyone to be true, and denials of this fact destroy any credibility you might have. I've never said anything remotely like the latter, which is strictly an invention.

Some people born into bad circumstances manage to claw their way up. But it's mind bogglingly harder for them. And so, America simply throws away the talents of a great many of its citizens.

No matter how philosophically distasteful you might find the prospect, it is factually true that providing all American children with good nutrition, good education, and good healthcare, would be a real win for America. Given the fact that much of the developed world now outdoes us in providing all those things for their children, we're headed for very hard times if we don't change our ways.

I recommend this book. It makes the case (with comprehensive economic data) that what worked so well for America in the 20th century, will destroy it in the 21st.

"Capital in the 21st Century" by Thomas Piketty

It's hard to get a copy, it's been flying off the shelves, and is sold out most places. The best bet would be the Kindle version.

"It’s a brilliant, surprisingly readable work that synthesizes a staggering amount of careful research to make the case that income inequality is no accident. Indeed, Piketty argues that it is a feature of capitalism itself--unless governments take action to rein in capitalism’s excesses…But the value of Piketty’s work is that it shows that capitalism’s postwar heyday--in which incomes at the bottom and the top actually converged--was a historical anomaly. Piketty’s analysis of the last two centuries makes the case that capital in its natural state does not tend to spread out or trickle down, but to concentrate in the hands of a few…He has starkly and convincingly outlined the stakes for future generations. Either we’ll have a new birth of reformed capitalism…or we’ll have wealth concentration on such a colossal scale that it will threaten the democratic order."

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 04-25-2014 at 09:59 AM.
128Convertibleguy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-25-2014, 02:35 PM   #174
Andy H.
Lieutenant
 
Andy H.'s Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 535i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 400
iTrader: (1)

No direct relationship exists between circumstances of birth and whether one is successful. Frankly, many folks who are successful come from very tough circumstances. And, this is what motivates them to succeed. You just don't get it and you never will. Everyone has their own specific and unique problems. Accept the hand you are dealt and persevere or blame everyone else, whine, moan and complain. Your choice. You will never level the playing field. It doesn't work that way. Get real.

Obama has made it worse for everyone and our country as a whole under his administration. Now that is a fact. Why hasn't spreading the wealth worked? Hint: It has never worked in he history of the world. Why hasn't obamacare worked? Why is it costing EVERYONE more? Why are doctors quitting their practices and why are less and less students pursuing an education in medicine? Can you say, Canada?

I'd lay it out for you but you would come up with some lame ass victim based excuse instead of looking at the data. I'll give you another hint: Name one thing that the government has ever done that has made money and helped the most people that the private sector doesn't otherwise do better for the most people at a profit.

You have a victim mentality. Successful people (you pick the color or ethnicity) don't blame others. They make the best of what is available, take advantage of opportunity and persevere.

It is as simple as that.
__________________
LIVE FREE OR DIE

Last edited by Andy H.; 04-25-2014 at 03:41 PM.
Andy H. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-25-2014, 03:49 PM   #175
128Convertibleguy
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2010 128 Covertible
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mountains

Posts: 546
iTrader: (0)

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post

1. Obama has made it worse for everyone and our country as a whole under his administration. Now that is a fact.

2. Why hasn't spreading the wealth worked?

3. Why hasn't obamacare worked? Why is it costing EVERYONE more?

4. Why are doctors quitting their practices and why are less and less students pursuing an education in medicine? Can you say, Canada?

I'd lay it out for you but you would come up with some lame ass victim based excuse instead of looking at the data.
Funny. You have stated several things that the data says are completely wrong.

1. The data (meaning numbers, not rhetoric) clearly says he has. Look at the stock market for the last 5 years. Look at unemployment for the last five years. Look at house prices for the last five years. Look at the data, period. He turned around the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression, and we're now almost back to where we were before the banks crashed us.

2. Because it hasn't been spread. The top 1% have absorbed pretty much all of the increase in wealth. Data (actual, checkable numbers).

"But since the recession officially ended in June 2009, the top 1 percent have enjoyed the benefits of rising corporate profits and stock prices: 95 percent of the income gains reported since 2009 have gone to the top 1 percent."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101025377

3. It has worked. You can put everyone in caps all you like, but it's still absurdly wrong. Something like 10 million people now have coverage who didn't. Health care cost growth has slowed significantly. Those eligible for Federal assistance (about half, basically those below the median income) have seen dramatic reductions in their insurance cost. Data.

http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2014/0...secutive-year/

http://today.uci.edu/news/2012/02/nr...nce_120209.php

http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/25/news...tes/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/17/he...anted=all&_r=0

4. Why are there more doctors per 1000 in many countries with national health insurance? I lost my family doctor here. The reason was that he was tired of fighting the different insurance companies to give his patients proper care. There are more doctors in countries with national health care, because they only have to deal with one insurance company. Just a few of the countries with significantly more doctors per 1000 people than here. Australia, Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark... I'll stop at D, for data.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2226.html

It's funny. You talk about data, but your arguments are nothing but talking points from the very worst of FauxNews, and, in fact, conflict with the actual data (once again, actual checkable numbers), referenced above. If you like data so much, read Piketty's book referenced above, post 173. He's a renowned economist, it's crammed with data. Among other things, it completely refutes the silly "trickle down" theory that what's good for the rich is good for all of us. As if the last 5 years (point 2, above) wasn't enough proof.

I'm done responding to rhetoric. You can have the last word. Or, if you like data so much, how about posting some. Actual checkable numbers, not rhetoric. I have.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 04-25-2014 at 04:17 PM.
128Convertibleguy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-25-2014, 04:18 PM   #176
i dunno
Lieutenant
 
Drives: a pair of legs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 408
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 328i  [0.00]
I don't know about you, but Obamacare worked for me. A few years ago, I tried to purchase my own insurance but was denied because of a preexisting condition that I have no control over. That's no longer an issue for me now.
i dunno is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:26 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST