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      10-20-2007, 05:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by m_bazeepaymon View Post
Guys I need to pause this conversation for a secondI spoke to a dealership about this whole Bulletin scenario they said they have received the bulletin regarding the December production, Spring Release and I asked them what was the whole deal on allocations. They said they're systems are comming up by next week some time they will have more information regarding allocation specifications and technically the orders and deposits will go into the system

I hope this help, I need to talk to my specific dealership

Sounds exciting. Thanks.
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      10-20-2007, 07:46 PM   #90
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Simple

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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Let's think this through together Swamp...

In a static scenario, if one wants to evaluate the "stiffness" of the whole assembly, one would compress it a known distance, hold it there, and measure the force required to hold it there. Since static means that the distance between the mounting points of the assembly is constant, relative velocity of those points would be 0, and the damping ratio would not affect the force measurement, and one can obtain an overall k for the assembly, which should be pretty close to the k of the coil spring unless there are other parts in the assembly that act like springs.

In a dynamic scenario, I think I see what you mean since for the damper F=bv, and velocity is obviously not zero. So, the question is how stiff does that "feel" to the driver? It seems to me that, technically speaking, it is just as stiff, meaning k is k, but the force experienced by the driver is less since Power into the damper is F^2/b.

What do you think?
I think you are making it too complex. Statically you are correct, but what is ever static in a car - almost nothing! I love the math and equations (probably more than most) but this is simple. When you increase the damping of a shock but make no change to the spring the car feels stiffer. There is more reaction force from the shock (damper) and less suspension travel for a given fixed input (force (=bump)). Hence there is more acceleration (i.e. the suspension "shock" that you can feel in your rear) and is both qualitatively and quantitatively "stiffer".

By the way the k of the suspension aseembly is not close to the k of the spring. The multi-link lever system creates a significant mechanical advantage.
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      10-20-2007, 08:21 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Keto View Post
You must be blind to BMW's business model if you think any of their models will ever come fully equipped for anything. They're not as bad as Porsche to be sure but they definitely get their profits in the options. I remember a few cars (e39 M5, etc) that didn't need much added on but that's it. I added $10k in options or so to my E46 M3. I'm ready to eat it again, especially since we all think that BMW is trying to keep the base down for sales (even in the face of our pathetically weak dollar).

I'm not arguing with the idea that performance should not depend on options, but let's be honest here: PASM, EDC, X51, Ceramic brakes, etc etc etc.

Additionally, the question is only the steering, as the no-frills performance crowd doesn't care about EDC (aftermarket>EDC), doesn't care about DSC as long as it can be turned off and doesn't care about throttle mapping. I hope that the steering can at least be set heavy for you at the dealer.
Keto, do you understand BMW's business model? It's like going to the movies. Hit a matinee and avoid the snack bar and the price of a movie is reasonable. Go at prime time, clean out the snack bar, gain 5 pounds, and blow a remarkable large sum of of money for a movie that you figure out the plot line 5 minutes into it. Movie theaters make all their money from the snack bar. BMW, Porsche, Kia make all their money with options. Porsche's business model does not rip you off with their options. Porschephiles rip themselves off by buying unecessary options. Remember, Porsche cars are sports cars. It is Porshephiles who try to turn their sports cars into sport/GTs with comfort options. Porsche is only happy to oblige them. IMO, the ceramic brakes for 8k are a rip off, they save weight but don't improve braking performance that much over the excellent standard brakes. The Porsche stepchild, 60k Cayman S, doesn't need a single option or upgrade to hit the track on a regular baisis. Can the same be said for any U.S. spec M car?
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      10-20-2007, 08:56 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
When you increase the damping of a shock but make no change to the spring the car feels stiffer. There is more reaction force from the shock (damper) and less suspension travel for a given fixed input (force (=bump)).
I see what you are saying here. Agreed now.
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      10-20-2007, 10:05 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Stahlgrau View Post
Well, aren't you ever the elitist? A true enthusiast. Obviously so much better than those of us that want added options.
Elitist? well then yes I am. Like Steve Dinan referred to in Roundel, me not likey those who puff up the weight, price and complexity of the M3 with ridiculous electronic do dad doos. If you want comfort and ergo friendly options, buy a Lexus, they do a much better job of it. And their doo dads actually still works past the 4 year warranty period. ISF, your cup of tea Mr. Stahlgrau?
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      10-20-2007, 10:12 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Keto View Post
How many HP does the cloth add?
This may be hard to believe but it doesn't actually add horsepower. However, all other things being equal, I will be able to run the 1/4 mile .0000003 seconds quicker than you becuase Speed cloth as the name suggests is a teeny weeny bit "speedier" and lighter than your luxurious leather.
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      10-21-2007, 12:31 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Keto, do you understand BMW's business model? It's like going to the movies. Hit a matinee and avoid the snack bar and the price of a movie is reasonable. Go at prime time, clean out the snack bar, gain 5 pounds, and blow a remarkable large sum of of money for a movie that you figure out the plot line 5 minutes into it. Movie theaters make all their money from the snack bar. BMW, Porsche, Kia make all their money with options. Porsche's business model does not rip you off with their options. Porschephiles rip themselves off by buying unecessary options. Remember, Porsche cars are sports cars. It is Porshephiles who try to turn their sports cars into sport/GTs with comfort options. Porsche is only happy to oblige them. IMO, the ceramic brakes for 8k are a rip off, they save weight but don't improve braking performance that much over the excellent standard brakes. The Porsche stepchild, 60k Cayman S, doesn't need a single option or upgrade to hit the track on a regular baisis. Can the same be said for any U.S. spec M car?
So, Porsche's business model does not include making money on unnecessary options, rather, they are just the accidental beneficiary of stupid customers?

Sensible.

Thanks for repeating what I said, too. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
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      10-21-2007, 01:41 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Elitist? well then yes I am. Like Steve Dinan referred to in Roundel, me not likey those who puff up the weight, price and complexity of the M3 with ridiculous electronic do dad doos. If you want comfort and ergo friendly options, buy a Lexus, they do a much better job of it. And their doo dads actually still works past the 4 year warranty period. ISF, your cup of tea Mr. Stahlgrau?
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      10-21-2007, 02:02 AM   #97
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i'm jumping all over this thread
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      10-21-2007, 03:19 AM   #98
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Yes and no

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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Keto, do you understand BMW's business model? It's like going to the movies. Hit a matinee and avoid the snack bar and the price of a movie is reasonable. Go at prime time, clean out the snack bar, gain 5 pounds, and blow a remarkable large sum of of money for a movie that you figure out the plot line 5 minutes into it. Movie theaters make all their money from the snack bar. BMW, Porsche, Kia make all their money with options. Porsche's business model does not rip you off with their options. Porschephiles rip themselves off by buying unecessary options. Remember, Porsche cars are sports cars. It is Porshephiles who try to turn their sports cars into sport/GTs with comfort options. Porsche is only happy to oblige them. IMO, the ceramic brakes for 8k are a rip off, they save weight but don't improve braking performance that much over the excellent standard brakes. The Porsche stepchild, 60k Cayman S, doesn't need a single option or upgrade to hit the track on a regular baisis. Can the same be said for any U.S. spec M car?
You have it all mostly right until the end. Problems: margins on options or not Porsche has the highest margins in the industry. Their margins are merely fantastic on the base price (meaning bad value for us) and out of this world when you add options.

Futhermore, M cars do not need a single opton to hit the track on a regular basis. Can you name an option on the new M3 "required" or that makes it faster on the track with a skilled driver (other than M-DCT, which is not available yet and Cup+ on 19s - likely only available in EU)?
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      10-21-2007, 03:40 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Elitist? well then yes I am. Like Steve Dinan referred to in Roundel, me not likey those who puff up the weight, price and complexity of the M3 with ridiculous electronic do dad doos. If you want comfort and ergo friendly options, buy a Lexus, they do a much better job of it. And their doo dads actually still works past the 4 year warranty period. ISF, your cup of tea Mr. Stahlgrau?
Nah....don't like the looks. I'll stick with the M3 and whatever options I choose. Added weight or not. I probably won't be tracking much.
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      10-21-2007, 07:51 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Futhermore, M cars do not need a single opton to hit the track on a regular basis. Can you name an option on the new M3 "required" or that makes it faster on the track with a skilled driver (other than M-DCT, which is not available yet and Cup+ on 19s - likely only available in EU)?
How about sport plus throttle response? It wouldn't make a huge difference, but it would make a difference.
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      10-21-2007, 10:01 AM   #101
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Throttle response is merely the mapping of the pedal. A true heel-to-toe enthusiast shouldn't have problems pushing the gas pedal harder.
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      10-21-2007, 11:07 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
Throttle response is merely the mapping of the pedal. A true heel-to-toe enthusiast shouldn't have problems pushing the gas pedal harder.
Are you sure about that? Press release says:

"A separate throttle butterfly for each cylinder - eight in this instance - is a feature adapted from BMW M's racing heritage and provides immediate reaction to the gas pedal at all times. Two stepper motors operate the four throttle butterflies on each row of cylinders, giving the engine a particularly sensitive response at low speeds together with an immediate reaction whenever the driver presses down the accelerator for extra power and performance."

Are you sure the different throttle response settings do not have something to do with how the motors are controlled and therefore respond to driver input--meaning there might be more than just a linear mapping in between the two? It is possible that there is a response rate that cannot be achieved no matter how hard you push on the pedal unless the system is in the sport plus setting.

This would be good to know because if you are right, MDrive simply boils down to the M button (as long as you are okay with taking DSC offline), and I'd probably give up the M button in order to avoid the double hump.
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      10-21-2007, 02:46 PM   #103
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Throttle response

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Are you sure about that? Press release says:

"A separate throttle butterfly for each cylinder - eight in this instance - is a feature adapted from BMW M's racing heritage and provides immediate reaction to the gas pedal at all times. Two stepper motors operate the four throttle butterflies on each row of cylinders, giving the engine a particularly sensitive response at low speeds together with an immediate reaction whenever the driver presses down the accelerator for extra power and performance."

Are you sure the different throttle response settings do not have something to do with how the motors are controlled and therefore respond to driver input--meaning there might be more than just a linear mapping in between the two? It is possible that there is a response rate that cannot be achieved no matter how hard you push on the pedal unless the system is in the sport plus setting.

This would be good to know because if you are right, MDrive simply boils down to the M button (as long as you are okay with taking DSC offline), and I'd probably give up the M button in order to avoid the double hump.
The "extra power and performance" line is pure hogwash, certainly wrt "power". No matter how a throttle mapping is set no pedal force = idle and fully depressed pedal = full throttle. The mapping controls the linearity of the butterfly response vs. pedal travel as well as the speed of butterflys vs speed of pedal. That being said it may be as you stated that Sport Plus setting offers a mapping speed not obtainable by a human. But again, that being said I think the result is still not ultimate performance, rather feel and control. It would be an interesting experiment to find two closely matched cars and drivers and do a rolling start test with the throttle in different modes. This can be done now with an E46 M3 as well.
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      10-21-2007, 03:09 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The "extra power and performance" line is pure hogwash, certainly wrt "power". No matter how a throttle mapping is set no pedal force = idle and fully depressed pedal = full throttle. The mapping controls the linearity of the butterfly response vs. pedal travel as well as the speed of butterflys vs speed of pedal. That being said it may be as you stated that Sport Plus setting offers a mapping speed not obtainable by a human. But again, that being said I think the result is still not ultimate performance, rather feel and control. It would be an interesting experiment to find two closely matched cars and drivers and do a rolling start test with the throttle in different modes. This can be done now with an E46 M3 as well.
Agreed that the extra Hp is BS. If sport plus does offer stepper motor control that cannot be attained otherwise, I guess that would allow the driver to be more involved due to faster response, which might or might not result in performance gains. As you are saying, we'll need to see some reviews that specifically focus on issues such as this one (I also want to see a comparison between EDC-sport and non-EDC suspension setups before deciding).
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      10-21-2007, 03:50 PM   #105
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iDrive / MDrive truly required for Steering Map Setting?

I've read the entire thread, and are folks really sure that iDrive / MDrive is required to adjust the Steering Settings? The formal Sedan press release posted as a sticky seems to suggest that iDrive/MDrive are required only for saving and recalling of overall preferred settings:

"Servotronic steering with two manually adjustable control maps

Rear-wheel drive keeps the rack-and-pinion steering of the BMW M3 Sedan free of drive forces. A further enhancement is hydraulic Servotronic power assistance controlling steering forces as a function of road speed. There is also a choice of two different control maps activated through normal and sport modes with a console-mounted button."

and

"MDrive personalizes the driving characteristics of the new BMW M3

The new M3 provides several standard and optional driver-controlled systems to tailor the driving characteristics to a driver's personal preferences. The driver can choose, with conveniently located buttons:

DSC on or off (for a very competent, performance-oriented driver)
EDC in Sport, Normal or Comfort modes
Servotronic in Sport or Comfort modes
Throttle response either direct/sporting or comfort oriented

A push of the MDrive button on the steering wheel can instantaneously activate the above driver-selectable configurations, turning the new BMW M3 into his or her personalized Ultimate Driving Machine. "

Can anyone without iDrive/MDrive confirm one way or the other? Having the heavier steering would be strongly desired by most, I'm hoping this is available without having to spend money on unnecessary electronics like iDrive/Nav...
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      10-21-2007, 04:17 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
Throttle response is merely the mapping of the pedal. A true heel-to-toe enthusiast shouldn't have problems pushing the gas pedal harder.
+ 1 again. We sure are on the same page when it comes to this M.
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      10-21-2007, 04:21 PM   #107
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Mostly when you press power on the car or Sport on the E46 M3, ETC. Throttle response just makes the car "feel more sporty"
Even though it will feel a lot faster and have a higher kick off... The car is performing just the same
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      10-21-2007, 04:29 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
You have it all mostly right until the end. Problems: margins on options or not Porsche has the highest margins in the industry. Their margins are merely fantastic on the base price (meaning bad value for us) and out of this world when you add options.
BMW is right behind them. At least Porsche offers a nice set of fade free stopper even on their base model. BMW is finally catching the light and putting a decent pair of shoes on the 1 series. Must of been too late to offer multi Pots on the M3, kinda like DFI


Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Futhermore, M cars do not need a single opton to hit the track on a regular basis. Can you name an option on the new M3 "required" or that makes it faster on the track with a skilled driver (other than M-DCT, which is not available yet and Cup+ on 19s - likely only available in EU)?
Brakes mate. Even you emphasized the importance of great brakes until the bad reviews of the M3's starting rolling in. At that point, you started rationalizing, as you continue to, do the effectiveness of the single pot faders. I would guess if the M3 had some real track brakes, ie multi pot, you would be talking up their fade free abilities and increased stopping surface and wouldn't be talking about the need for a brake upgrade.
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      10-21-2007, 04:47 PM   #109
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On we go

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Brakes mate. Even you emphasized the importance of great brakes until the bad reviews of the M3's starting rolling in. At that point, you started rationalizing, as you continue to, do the effectiveness of the single pot faders. I would guess if the M3 had some real track brakes, ie multi pot, you would be talking up their fade free abilities and increased stopping surface and wouldn't be talking about the need for a brake upgrade.
You continue to misrepresent my statements. I have never waivered on my belief that brakes are critically important. I think the jury is still out on the brakes but they COULD be the weakest point on the car. I suspect the brakes will be fine, even without the factory track pads, for all but the tracks that really torture ones brakes.

I always have and still do stick to my guns that rotor size, caliper size, the presense of a floating rotor and brake cooling are MORE important than the number of pistons (or the color of the caliper...)
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      10-21-2007, 05:05 PM   #110
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You continue to misrepresent my statements. I have never waivered on my belief that brakes are critically important. I think the jury is still out on the brakes but they COULD be the weakest point on the car. I suspect the brakes will be fine, even without the factory track pads, for all but the tracks that really torture ones brakes.

I always have and still do stick to my guns that rotor size, caliper size, the presense of a floating rotor and brake cooling are MORE important than the number of pistons (or the color of the caliper...)
Brake System Basic Facts
1) Line pressure can only be increased by either increasing the mechanical pedal ratio or by decreasing the master cylinder diameter. In either case the pedal travel will be increased.

2) Clamping force can only be increased either by increasing the line pressure or by increasing the diameter of the caliper piston(s). Increasing the size of the pads will not increase clamping force. Any increase in caliper piston area alone will be accompanied by an increase in pedal travel. The effectiveness of a caliper is also affected by the stiffness of the caliper body and its mountings. It is therefore possible to reduce piston size while increasing caliper stiffness and realize a net increase in clamping force applied. This would typically improve pedal feel.

3) Only increasing the effective radius of the disc, the caliper piston area, the line pressure, or the coefficient of friction can increase brake torque. Increasing the pad area will decrease pad wear and improve the fade characteristics of the pads but it will not increase the brake torque.
--StopTech

It is true that multiple piston calipers do not necessarily offer more clamping force than single pistons, but might offer more piston area making this possible.
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