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      10-20-2007, 01:00 PM   #67
///MML
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who is running BMW NA M division these days, a bunch of girls? Lets see, I have to pony up $60k for a so called "motorsport" (20k more than a 335) and I have to spend another untold dollars on options to get a higher level of performance. Just make the M car hard and fast with a simple DSC on/off button and stop screwing the customer with this idrive/mdrive/edc crap....

rant over:
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      10-20-2007, 01:02 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyB View Post
335 = base model

M3 = 'flagship'

Should the 3 series flagship M3 be in some way handicapped without the addition of some technology option package? That's fine if people want to be able to opt for a package that offers some extra settings but the car shouldn't have the weakest of those settings for buyers who opt out of that package, and I don't think it will.
You must be blind to BMW's business model if you think any of their models will ever come fully equipped for anything. They're not as bad as Porsche to be sure but they definitely get their profits in the options. I remember a few cars (e39 M5, etc) that didn't need much added on but that's it. I added $10k in options or so to my E46 M3. I'm ready to eat it again, especially since we all think that BMW is trying to keep the base down for sales (even in the face of our pathetically weak dollar).

I'm not arguing with the idea that performance should not depend on options, but let's be honest here: PASM, EDC, X51, Ceramic brakes, etc etc etc.

Additionally, the question is only the steering, as the no-frills performance crowd doesn't care about EDC (aftermarket>EDC), doesn't care about DSC as long as it can be turned off and doesn't care about throttle mapping. I hope that the steering can at least be set heavy for you at the dealer.
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      10-20-2007, 01:10 PM   #69
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M3 steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
Additionally, the question is only the steering, as the no-frills performance crowd doesn't care about EDC (aftermarket>EDC), doesn't care about DSC as long as it can be turned off and doesn't care about throttle mapping. I hope that the steering can at least be set heavy for you at the dealer.
Steering

"The design of the rack-and-pinion steering system is the same as the series E92. The average variable overall ratio is 12.5 and hence sports-oriented (16 in the series E92). In the M3, the steering force support is controlled by the MSS60 via the Servotronic valve. A speeddependent characteristic curve is stored in the MSS60 for this purpose. With the MDrive menu option, a second and even more sportsoriented characteristic curve can be activated (see the chapter on MDrive). The steering oil is guided through a steering oil cooler before it returns to the oil reservoir. The E92 M3 is not available with active steering."
--BMW Aftersales Training Product Information

Thank God at least that we don't have to deal with Active Steering!
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Last edited by GregW / Oregon; 10-25-2007 at 10:24 AM.
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      10-20-2007, 01:12 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
You must be blind to BMW's business model if you think any of their models will ever come fully equipped for anything. They're not as bad as Porsche to be sure but they definitely get their profits in the options. I remember a few cars (e39 M5, etc) that didn't need much added on but that's it. I added $10k in options or so to my E46 M3. I'm ready to eat it again, especially since we all think that BMW is trying to keep the base down for sales (even in the face of our pathetically weak dollar).

I'm not arguing with the idea that performance should not depend on options, but let's be honest here: PASM, EDC, X51, Ceramic brakes, etc etc etc.

Additionally, the question is only the steering, as the no-frills performance crowd doesn't care about EDC (aftermarket>EDC), doesn't care about DSC as long as it can be turned off and doesn't care about throttle mapping. I hope that the steering can at least be set heavy for you at the dealer.
Many "true enthusiast"
will probably agree with you on your point and get the I Drive
the EDC will cause aftermarket issues also, making it harder for coilovers etc.
No?
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      10-20-2007, 01:12 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MML View Post
who is running BMW NA M division these days, a bunch of girls? Lets see, I have to pony up $60k for a so called "motorsport" (20k more than a 335) and I have to spend another untold dollars on options to get a higher level of performance. Just make the M car hard and fast with a simple DSC on/off button and stop screwing the customer with this idrive/mdrive/edc crap....

rant over:

i think suprirsingly the car will be less than we think base...
not trying to start a MSRP Talk war
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      10-20-2007, 01:27 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post

Thank God at least that we don't have to deal with Active Steering!
If it came with Active Steering, I would not deal with the car at all...
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      10-20-2007, 01:27 PM   #73
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I'm happy to not be force-fed all of the M-drive/I-drive stuff at least. I had all but marked the new M3 off of my short list until it was revealed that these items were optional in the US. I'm really down to the (facelifted, dfi-hopeful) '09 Cayman S or the M3 Coupe. And Porsche won't make a dime off of me on PCCB, PASM or Sports Chrono, although those are all reportedly nice options to have.

Interesting thread at least.
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      10-20-2007, 01:28 PM   #74
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Yes and no

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MML View Post
who is running BMW NA M division these days, a bunch of girls? Lets see, I have to pony up $60k for a so called "motorsport" (20k more than a 335) and I have to spend another untold dollars on options to get a higher level of performance. Just make the M car hard and fast with a simple DSC on/off button and stop screwing the customer with this idrive/mdrive/edc crap....

rant over:
If BMW really did require certain options to get the most ultimate performance from the car that may be a bit suspect. However here you are really talking more about customization and feel. The throttle mapping does not affect ones ability to give the car full throttle as fast as they can push the pedal. The setting are in BMWs opinion more suited to fine contol at the track but are they required to go fast - hardly. The same thing can be said about the missing steering settings. M-dynamic mode is also the same but something not be be missed IMO. Remember the videos of the full launch and acceleration test runs? The traction control settings with MDM use just enough engine or brake control to help you get a very nice (perhaps optional launch?). MDM also sets DSC to a mode that offers the best of both worlds - the ability to get the tail out a bit AND DSC is still activated to save your ass under really sketchy conditions.

Again these options are not required to get the most performance but for 99% of us they are very nice options related to how much fun, extractable performance and safety we can get from the car.

So as I have said before +1 on customization, esp. EDC.
-1 on getting ripped off on options (nothing new here).
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      10-20-2007, 01:28 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
If it came with Active Steering, I would not deal with the car at all...
Ditto that!
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      10-20-2007, 01:33 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_bazeepaymon View Post
I think the M Drive setting is a must for all Modern M Cars nowadays, Configuring a car to your own personal settings is a must...
True.

My gripe is that one should not have to deal with iDrive (and therefore Navigation and all that jazz) to be able to configure the performance related variables of the car and have MDrive capability. For instance, if all performance settings were accessible via the Power, EDC, DSC, and "Steering" (doesn't exist) buttons, then one could set everything to his/her liking and press and hold the M button for 30 seconds to store them in memory. It could be THAT f**king simple, which is what is making me mad!
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      10-20-2007, 02:01 PM   #77
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lucid +1

MDrive should be standard as it is in the M5. after all, it is an M car. as it has been stated, it is obvious the BMW is trying to keep the base price low and screw you over with options that they know you are going to want (EDC) or the ones that you have to have in order to get other things (iDrive for MDrive). this is why i'm getting an 135i- because i can spend half the money and go apeshit with options.
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      10-20-2007, 02:02 PM   #78
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swamp,

I think you missed part of my point. The off the shelf car should have(without any options)

Steering that is set at near track level - percise/firm
Suspension that is set at near track level - no lean/firm
Diff that is set at near track level - fun as hell but safe enough to keep your ass out of the ditch.

I should not have to pay for the above in an M car in addition to the base price. There should be no performance related options on a M car (steering/brakes/suspension/diff), I should get the best the M division has to offer stock. All the so called options cost money and if you know anything about finance you spread development costs so we all pay for these options wheather you buy them or not.
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      10-20-2007, 02:07 PM   #79
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+1...said it a lot better than me. the bmw rep reading this is a jerk.
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      10-20-2007, 02:24 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MML View Post
swamp,

I think you missed part of my point. The off the shelf car should have(without any options)

Steering that is set at near track level - percise/firm
Suspension that is set at near track level - no lean/firm
Diff that is set at near track level - fun as hell but safe enough to keep your ass out of the ditch.
I guess you're getting all this with a base M3:
The suspension is firm without EDC (springs are stiffer then on cars equipped with EDC), for the best track results DSC totally off is just fine and the steering should (not totally sure about that) stiff enough also.
So you're getting the car quite track-ready without that package IMHO and all that without the electronics many here seem to hate...

Best regards, south
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      10-20-2007, 02:27 PM   #81
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Quote:
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The suspension is firm without EDC (springs are stiffer then on cars equipped with EDC)
I wasn't aware of this. Do you have k values for the springs used in the EDC and non-EDC setups? Also, you do realize EDC can only vary the damping ratio, and not the spring rate, right?
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      10-20-2007, 02:41 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MML View Post
swamp,

The off the shelf car should have(without any options)

Steering that is set at near track level - percise/firm
Suspension that is set at near track level - no lean/firm
Diff that is set at near track level - fun as hell but safe enough to keep your ass out of the ditch.

I should not have to pay for the above in an M car in addition to the base price. There should be no performance related options on a M car (steering/brakes/suspension/diff), I should get the best the M division has to offer stock. All the so called options cost money and if you know anything about finance you spread development costs so we all pay for these options wheather you buy them or not.
I agree completely. That is the point I was trying to make as well.
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      10-20-2007, 02:42 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I guess you're getting all this with a base M3:
The suspension is firm without EDC (springs are stiffer then on cars equipped with EDC), for the best track results DSC totally off is just fine and the steering should (not totally sure about that) stiff enough also.
So you're getting the car quite track-ready without that package IMHO and all that without the electronics many here seem to hate...

Best regards, south
That's good news for the non M-drive/I-drive fans.
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      10-20-2007, 02:47 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I wasn't aware of this. Do you have k values for the springs used in the EDC and non-EDC setups? Also, you do realize EDC can only vary the damping ratio, and not the spring rate, right?
Sorry, don't have the spring rates. But what you're saying is right, EDC varies the damping ratio, not the spring rates.

EDIT: Think you have unsettled me now! Can't seem to find different springs for EDC and non EDC cars, so it's also possible that different struts are the reason for the stiffer basic calibration of No-EDC cars!?

Best regards, south

Last edited by southlight; 10-20-2007 at 03:06 PM.
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      10-20-2007, 03:49 PM   #85
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Stiff

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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I wasn't aware of this. Do you have k values for the springs used in the EDC and non-EDC setups? Also, you do realize EDC can only vary the damping ratio, and not the spring rate, right?
Wouldn't you agree that a qualitative evaluation of level of "stiffness" is highly regulated by the damping level? Indeed the effect of EDC is purely damping which is velocity dependent and stiff technically refers only to only the spring constant.
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      10-20-2007, 04:18 PM   #86
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Quote:
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Wouldn't you agree that a qualitative evaluation of level of "stiffness" is highly regulated by the damping level? Indeed the effect of EDC is purely damping which is velocity dependent and stiff technically refers only to only the spring constant.
Let's think this through together Swamp...

In a static scenario, if one wants to evaluate the "stiffness" of the whole assembly, one would compress it a known distance, hold it there, and measure the force required to hold it there. Since static means that the distance between the mounting points of the assembly is constant, relative velocity of those points would be 0, and the damping ratio would not affect the force measurement, and one can obtain an overall k for the assembly, which should be pretty close to the k of the coil spring unless there are other parts in the assembly that act like springs.

In a dynamic scenario, I think I see what you mean since for the damper F=bv, and velocity is obviously not zero. So, the question is how stiff does that "feel" to the driver? It seems to me that, technically speaking, it is just as stiff, meaning k is k, but the force experienced by the driver is less since Power into the damper is F^2/b.

What do you think?
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      10-20-2007, 05:08 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Let's think this through together Swamp...

In a static scenario, if one wants to evaluate the "stiffness" of the whole assembly, one would compress it a known distance, hold it there, and measure the force required to hold it there. Since static means that the distance between the mounting points of the assembly is constant, relative velocity of those points would be 0, and the damping ratio would not affect the force measurement, and one can obtain an overall k for the assembly, which should be pretty close to the k of the coil spring unless there are other parts in the assembly that act like springs.

In a dynamic scenario, I think I see what you mean since for the damper F=bv, and velocity is obviously not zero. So, the question is how stiff does that "feel" to the driver? It seems to me that, technically speaking, it is just as stiff, meaning k is k, but the force experienced by the driver is less since Power into the damper is F^2/b.

What do you think?

1+1=2
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      10-20-2007, 05:13 PM   #88
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Guys I need to pause this conversation for a secondI spoke to a dealership about this whole Bulletin scenario they said they have received the bulletin regarding the December production, Spring Release and I asked them what was the whole deal on allocations. They said they're systems are comming up by next week some time they will have more information regarding allocation specifications and technically the orders and deposits will go into the system

I hope this help, I need to talk to my specific dealership
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