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      12-14-2013, 12:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Chriskm3
Omg. 0 to 60 3.9 In stock form. That's crazy. With minor software tweaks and catless exhaust and your smoking the infamous c63. Which is rated at 3.6 or 3.8. Can't remember. I definitely consider upgrading in a heart beat. But since my car was stolen I can only consider taking the bus.
Considering the weight and the power figures(even if not underrated) of the new M3/M4, I'm sure they will easilly beat a regular C63 on the 1/4mile! Comparing with the 991S who runs side by side with the 507 C63 with only 400hp and a power to weight ratio that should be around the same as the new Ms, I think it is safe to say that these cars will be beasts right out of the box!! :
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      12-14-2013, 04:15 PM   #90
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Omg. 0 to 60 3.9 In stock form. That's crazy. With minor software tweaks and catless exhaust and your smoking the infamous c63. Which is rated at 3.6 or 3.8. Can't remember. I definitely consider upgrading in a heart beat. But since my car was stolen I can only consider taking the bus.
Minor tweaks will not be necessury. stock for stock, c63 will be smoked on the straight and buried in the dust in twisties
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      12-14-2013, 04:38 PM   #91
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Idiot Club; waiting for M2

I am a member of Green Day's idiot club.

So I'll vote: No.

As such I will be waiting to see the M2.
My reasoning is that I only went for the M3 because of the V-8.
I am old and came from owning 1970s v8s which I liked.

Also, not really wanting a car that is bigger, even if slightly than the current M3.

As long as it's gonna be a turbo 6. Might as well look at the M2.

Again this is just my opinion and I know very little about cars.

Most likely will hold on to the e92 until they yank my license for
incompetence.

Cheers and happy motoring.
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      12-14-2013, 04:52 PM   #92
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Considering the weight and the power figures(even if not underrated) of the new M3/M4, I'm sure they will easilly beat a regular C63 on the 1/4mile! Comparing with the 991S who runs side by side with the 507 C63 with only 400hp and a power to weight ratio that should be around the same as the new Ms, I think it is safe to say that these cars will be beasts right out of the box!! :
How can you underestimate the c63 beast. There many m3 members that had their butt spanked by the one and only c63 pulling 3.8 0 to 60 all day long.( www.0to60times.com) Even if the new m3 pulls 3.9 it still falls inch short
Of victory. Tq is the key. I'm sure you are aware that just because a car has more hp and tq on paper it doesn't men's jack when it comes to true street performance . I had major issues keeping power down in first three gears. At times it felt like a handicap.
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      12-14-2013, 05:28 PM   #93
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There many m3 members that had their butt spanked by the one and only c63
I am one of them...lol. I got spanked by my buddy's c63 by 6 car lengths. I have test pipes and NO tune and 20" wheels. He had longtube headers and a tune and 18" wheels. If we were stock vs stock I'm sure he'd beat me by 4 car lengths.
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      12-14-2013, 11:13 PM   #94
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I'd expect the power numbers to be a bit underrated. Numbers aside though, from a roll on race I wouldn't be surprised to see a stock m4 leave even a full bolt on e9x in the dust.

For many the newness and excitement of a new m3/4 is reason enough to upgrade.

And for reviews they'll likely go along with the lines of "great car, but more insulated and not as 'raw' as the previous version."
Not really considered an upgrade. When moving from the E90 M3 to the F80 M3 its what we car enthusiasts call an "update"…not an update.
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      12-15-2013, 09:49 AM   #95
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I am one of them...lol. I got spanked by my buddy's c63 by 6 car lengths. I have test pipes and NO tune and 20" wheels. He had longtube headers and a tune and 18" wheels. If we were stock vs stock I'm sure he'd beat me by 4 car lengths.
don't be too sad, C63s with tune and LTs can trap in the mid-120's in the 1/4 mile

excited to see what the new m3/m4 will do in mag reviews
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      12-15-2013, 12:20 PM   #96
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Considering the weight and the power figures(even if not underrated) of the new M3/M4, I'm sure they will easilly beat a regular C63 on the 1/4mile! Comparing with the 991S who runs side by side with the 507 C63 with only 400hp and a power to weight ratio that should be around the same as the new Ms, I think it is safe to say that these cars will be beasts right out of the box!! :
How can you underestimate the c63 beast. There many m3 members that had their butt spanked by the one and only c63 pulling 3.8 0 to 60 all day long.( www.0to60times.com) Even if the new m3 pulls 3.9 it still falls inch short
Of victory. Tq is the key. I'm sure you are aware that just because a car has more hp and tq on paper it doesn't men's jack when it comes to true street performance . I had major issues keeping power down in first three gears. At times it felt like a handicap.
Oh I don't underestimate the C63s, I've seen what they're capable of, I got two friends who had one and we raced plenty of times(with all my differents set-ups). They both changed them last month, one bought a brand new 507 Edition and the other ordered a C7 Stingray, now I'm really eager to race them next spring!!

So to come back to our main subject, I think that the new M3/M4(with DCT) will be more in the range of a C63 P31 in terms of straight line performance! I anticipate a 1/4 mile of 11.9-12.0@117-118mph, something that an E9x with bolt-ons is already capable of! So the new, more powerfull and lighter model, should'nt have problems doing!
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      12-15-2013, 05:44 PM   #97
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Oh I don't underestimate the C63s, I've seen what they're capable of, I got two friends who had one and we raced plenty of times(with all my differents set-ups). They both changed them last month, one bought a brand new 507 Edition and the other ordered a C7 Stingray, now I'm really eager to race them next spring!!

So to come back to our main subject, I think that the new M3/M4(with DCT) will be more in the range of a C63 P31 in terms of straight line performance! I anticipate a 1/4 mile of 11.9-12.0@117-118mph, something that an E9x with bolt-ons is already capable of! So the new, more powerfull and lighter model, should'nt have problems doing!
Have you driven the c63?
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      12-15-2013, 05:55 PM   #98
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Oh I don't underestimate the C63s, I've seen what they're capable of, I got two friends who had one and we raced plenty of times(with all my differents set-ups). They both changed them last month, one bought a brand new 507 Edition and the other ordered a C7 Stingray, now I'm really eager to race them next spring!!

So to come back to our main subject, I think that the new M3/M4(with DCT) will be more in the range of a C63 P31 in terms of straight line performance! I anticipate a 1/4 mile of 11.9-12.0@117-118mph, something that an E9x with bolt-ons is already capable of! So the new, more powerfull and lighter model, should'nt have problems doing!
Have you driven the c63?
yep and they are beasts for sure with loads of torque(just like the new M3/M4) but they are not much faster then a catless-tuned DCT E9x M3 which I'm sure the new car will also put a beating on!
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      12-24-2013, 08:07 AM   #99
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the new m3 will destroy the e9x in a straight line.

sure, at peak, both may make similar HP. but when you shift and drive, you use all of the top 3000 RPM give or take. the new M3 makes 430 HP from basically 5500 RPM to redline at 7400 RPM. The net result is that the new m3 makes a TON more power under the curve, and overall has a much higher average HP rating at all RPM than the outgoing e9x.

compare this with being lighter, and the e9x m3 is going to get smoked in a straight line.

the new m3 also has more robust brakes, lighter weight, a new generation of suspension and materials technology (always makes a difference, see each gen of the m3 since its inception) and a much more powerful engine.

its also much nicer in the interior and comes with more standard features, albeit at a likely higher price.

it will crush the outgoing m3 in all those metrics IMO. people who are focusing on peak HP numbers are missing out.

EDIT : and also, can we get past saying the new engine is an n55 with a chip?

it has

-new internals
-massively redone and reworked cooling system (liquid to air system with multiple heat exchangers and radiators)
-new, completely different turbos
-new tuning tech that allows the turbos to remain spooled even when off throttle
you couldn't have said this any better
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      12-24-2013, 09:13 AM   #100
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The M3/4 will be terrific.

For those of you thinking that someone will quickly come out with a tune...lol.

The dual Bosch ECU's have proved impossible to fully crack. Which is why the M5/M6s have disappeared from our SoCal Airstrip roll-on events. With a tune or downpipes, M5/6 owners are getting limps at various speeds as the BMW engineers have hidden code in various places which so far have been undetectable.

Increases in torque over specified parameters over a certain duration will trigger limp. I have a buddy with a $6K tune and another buddy with $3K downpipes (no tune) and it happens to them at around 130mph.

The new M3/4 will have the same ECU and likely with even more sophisticated stop limit protocol and already 18.1psi of boost from the turbos. The best tuners/hackers will need years before a viable tuning product is even available.
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      12-24-2013, 01:34 PM   #101
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Boost numbers don't mean anything in of themselves. An evo runs 17-20ish psi stock and still makes plenty of power from bolt ons and a tune

Also, the m5 is a much much smaller tuner market than the m3, and development will be much slower as a result. Just look at what is actually available for the e60 m5 vs the e92 m3 and how long everything took to come out for the m5.

They will break the ecu and it will make power. People always say the same thing and have been for years and yet tuners always win out eventually.

The good thing here is this car is going to rip in stock form.
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      12-25-2013, 06:49 PM   #102
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I am mostly curious to see how this extra torque is going to actually get to the ground to create a faster real world car. Otherwise the traction/stability systems will basically just cut power to the wheels, and you will essentially have a less powerful car at lower speeds.

I know an M5 owner who tells me he can feel the DSC kicking in at nearly 100mph to prevent wheel spin !! That is nuts!!

Turbo torque is best suited to AWD, especially in a front engine car. If you want forced induction on a RWD car, the progressive power build up of a supercharger is much better to allow the power to progressively get to the ground as speeds increase.

Anyway, until we get some real world experiences, we can all keep mentally masterbating.
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      12-25-2013, 08:15 PM   #103
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I am mostly curious to see how this extra torque is going to actually get to the ground to create a faster real world car. Otherwise the traction/stability systems will basically just cut power to the wheels, and you will essentially have a less powerful car at lower speeds.

I know an M5 owner who tells me he can feel the DSC kicking in at nearly 100mph to prevent wheel spin !! That is nuts!!

Turbo torque is best suited to AWD, especially in a front engine car. If you want forced induction on a RWD car, the progressive power build up of a supercharger is much better to allow the power to progressively get to the ground as speeds increase.

Anyway, until we get some real world experiences, we can all keep mentally masterbating.
I disagree. Were talking 400lb ft torque which a stock v8 mustang makes. With the tiny turbos, the new M3/4 will have a greatly improved power under the curve and will put down power without an issue. Twin Screw Mustangs like those from Roush and Shelby have over 500lb-ft on tap and those have a bigger issue with hooking up than the small turbos in newer BMWs. The M5 however is just a monster.
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      12-26-2013, 01:58 PM   #104
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I am a member of Green Day's idiot club.

So I'll vote: No.

As such I will be waiting to see the M2.
My reasoning is that I only went for the M3 because of the V-8.
I am old and came from owning 1970s v8s which I liked.

Also, not really wanting a car that is bigger, even if slightly than the current M3.

As long as it's gonna be a turbo 6. Might as well look at the M2.

Again this is just my opinion and I know very little about cars.

Most likely will hold on to the e92 until they yank my license for
incompetence.

Cheers and happy motoring.

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      12-26-2013, 03:13 PM   #105
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I disagree. Were talking 400lb ft torque which a stock v8 mustang makes. With the tiny turbos, the new M3/4 will have a greatly improved power under the curve and will put down power without an issue. Twin Screw Mustangs like those from Roush and Shelby have over 500lb-ft on tap and those have a bigger issue with hooking up than the small turbos in newer BMWs. The M5 however is just a monster.
Yes, but a normally aspirated car will make torque at a much higher rpm, when the car is moving and traction is less of an issue. Look at the quick build-up of lower rpm torque on the F8x dyno plot. As it is, I think the current M3 is a bit traction challenged and the F8x will only be moving to 275 tires in the rear.

Don't get me wrong, I think it will be a fabulous car overall, and will likely surpass the e9x in most ways, however, getting power properly to the ground will be an issue. This is why even massive hp cars like a 640hp Viper still max out on their 0-60 times in the mid 3's even with 345 rubber.
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      12-26-2013, 03:24 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guardodoc
I am a member of Green Day's idiot club.

So I'll vote: No.

As such I will be waiting to see the M2.
My reasoning is that I only went for the M3 because of the V-8.
I am old and came from owning 1970s v8s which I liked.

Also, not really wanting a car that is bigger, even if slightly than the current M3.

As long as it's gonna be a turbo 6. Might as well look at the M2.

Again this is just my opinion and I know very little about cars.

Most likely will hold on to the e92 until they yank my license for
incompetence.

Cheers and happy motoring.


Well played, good sir! You're an inspiration.
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      12-27-2013, 01:04 PM   #107
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Yes, but a normally aspirated car will make torque at a much higher rpm, when the car is moving and traction is less of an issue. Look at the quick build-up of lower rpm torque on the F8x dyno plot. As it is, I think the current M3 is a bit traction challenged and the F8x will only be moving to 275 tires in the rear.

Don't get me wrong, I think it will be a fabulous car overall, and will likely surpass the e9x in most ways, however, getting power properly to the ground will be an issue. This is why even massive hp cars like a 640hp Viper still max out on their 0-60 times in the mid 3's even with 345 rubber.
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      12-28-2013, 10:19 AM   #108
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Yes, but a normally aspirated car will make torque at a much higher rpm, when the car is moving and traction is less of an issue. Look at the quick build-up of lower rpm torque on the F8x dyno plot. As it is, I think the current M3 is a bit traction challenged and the F8x will only be moving to 275 tires in the rear.

Don't get me wrong, I think it will be a fabulous car overall, and will likely surpass the e9x in most ways, however, getting power properly to the ground will be an issue. This is why even massive hp cars like a 640hp Viper still max out on their 0-60 times in the mid 3's even with 345 rubber.
I'll be extremely interested in seeing how BMW plays this issue. For instance, there's no particular reason why they couldn't restrict boost in first (and possibly second) gear. Instead of the nominal 18 psi or so, they'd give you 9, and 14 in second, or whatever they deem appropriate for an optimum-traction day.

Presto! Clean launches and terrific ETs for those of us who are stoplight/drag strip bandits.

Maybe a switch to turn it off if you feel like hooning around?

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      12-28-2013, 12:22 PM   #109
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I can guarantee that the new M3/M4 will be a good deal faster in every possible category from out e9x. The e9x will always have the sound benefit in my eyes and most likely the majority of people. What I am worried about and what not a lot of people are mentioning is the electronic steering. I am not against the electronic steering as I love it in my 991s. Just from BMW current models their electronic steering is terrible. While it's slightly improved on the M5/M6 it still detracts so much from the driving feel. Traction is something else to consider having all that power is nothing if you can't put it down. While I am sure the tcs system will stop you from going into a tree I don't want any ass end kick out while going through the gears. When I test drove the M6 the ass end kicked out in each gear with the tcs still on. For me this is a waste I would much rather have a lower hp/tq car that has the abilities to keep all the power to the ground.
I second the concerns about the EPS. BMW has done a poor job with its current EPS. In fact, I was not impressed by the EPS in the current Porsche Cayman either, which I wrote about in another thread. I don't like EPS in general, and neither do most motoring magazines.

My E90 has the Benvo Servotronic tune, which has made the very good HPS superb---greater weighting, feedback and feel. Is it a Lotus or Evo--no--but it will be better than the new M/3/4, unless BMW has devised a totally new EPS system that is as good as HPS. I doubt it.
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      12-30-2013, 09:59 AM   #110
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I can guarantee that the new M3/M4 will be a good deal faster in every possible category from out e9x. The e9x will always have the sound benefit in my eyes and most likely the majority of people. What I am worried about and what not a lot of people are mentioning is the electronic steering. I am not against the electronic steering as I love it in my 991s. Just from BMW current models their electronic steering is terrible. While it's slightly improved on the M5/M6 it still detracts so much from the driving feel. Traction is something else to consider having all that power is nothing if you can't put it down. While I am sure the tcs system will stop you from going into a tree I don't want any ass end kick out while going through the gears. When I test drove the M6 the ass end kicked out in each gear with the tcs still on. For me this is a waste I would much rather have a lower hp/tq car that has the abilities to keep all the power to the ground.
I second the concerns about the EPS. BMW has done a poor job with its current EPS. In fact, I was not impressed by the EPS in the current Porsche Cayman either, which I wrote about in another thread. I don't like EPS in general, and neither do most motoring magazines.

My E90 has the Benvo Servotronic tune, which has made the very good HPS superb---greater weighting, feedback and feel. Is it a Lotus or Evo--no--but it will be better than the new M/3/4, unless BMW has devised a totally new EPS system that is as good as HPS. I doubt it.
You pick out "lotus or evo" as examples of top class steering. Lotus with its unassisted steering in the elise and exige doesn't surprise me, but I've never heard of the Evo being held up as the standard for steering feel.

I've borrowed an Evo X a few times (regular street use, no actual performance driving with it), and while I thought it seemed like a cool car, I wasn't particularly impressed with the steering. I personally thought it seemed more numb than the E9X M3, but I wasn't surprised by this since I expected some loss of steering feel due to the AWD nature of the vehicle.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not suggesting it's bad in any way. I had just never heard this out forward as a consensus opinion. Did I miss something here?
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