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      12-13-2013, 01:21 AM   #1
Skooterbrah
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My 2012 SBD 700 E85 GTR Vs My ESS/AR 700 M3 on 91

I wanted to take a few minutes are write up a small article on the whole M3 vs GTR debate, and my impressions of both of the cars, both stock vs highly modified. I feel now owning both, at the same time, and driving them both in stock form to both at 700hp, gives me a good amount of insight I can offer. I will touch base on many aspects of each car, and compare the M3 and GTR in both stock form, and at current power levels.

First and foremost, performance. I will begin with the power and delivery from each platform. We all love our M3’s, and I still do! But I feel it is just not really up to par in this category, at least stock vs stock. Up here in Elevation, the M3 in stock form is a slug. No way to beat around the bush on this. My M3 made 315hp/230tq SAE bone stock, up here. It felt very underwhelming and very disappointing. The linear delivery is great, and the throttle response blows the doors of the GTR however. The biggest gripe most of us have, is the lack of torque. While it makes it in a very linear and consistent fashion (very straight across the board from 2500rpm to 8k) it just doesn’t make enough of it. The trade off for the short stroke 4.0L is the ability to rev to astronomical RPMS closing in at 8400rpm. No one can deny the sheer pleasure of driving the crankshaft to these velocities. It puts a smile on my face every single time! Now, my 2012 GTR when bone stock, on pump gas and 11psi up here put down 389hp/395tq SAE on a mustang dyno. The car, however, felt much faster than the numbers reflected. The first 2 gears were very healthy and planted you back. The biggest advantage the GTR has over the M3, is the available torque, the mass of midrange available and the very short gearing. This is what propels this 3850lb mechanical behemoth from 0-60 in less then 3 seconds. Bone stock, however, it feels like she starts running out of steam past 80mph or so. It still pulls good, but there is a lack of tenacity that the first 3 gears bring. The response, while great, is no where near as crisp as the M3 in M mode. With everything being considered, I give the win to the GTR on stock vs stock performance. Dyno's below for both cars stock

M3. The 314hp/230tq is bone stock (blue run)


Bone stock GTR run was the red delta. She laid down 389hp/395tq 11psi bone stock. The Green was mid pipe, and pump gas tune.




Now, fast forward and compare both cars to how they sit now. The M3 running the following mods (ESS/AR 700 supercharger, AR Design catless xpipe and rear sections ESS tune, running from 91 to 105 octane) and the 2012 GTR (SBD 700 – GotBoost intakes, GotBoost Speed density conversion, Got Boost IC piping w/ Tials, SBD race dp’s, AAM Race midpipe, SBD 90mm street exhaust, Dual HKS fuel pumps and ID 1000 injectors. Tuned on E85) The M3 @ 9psi on 100 octane laid down 613hp/394tq on a dynojet, the GTR @ 20psi on E85 laid down 589hp/712tq. The power delivery couldn’t be any different between to cars. First, the M3. Under 6500rpm, the car feels like a slug. I use the term “feels” loosely, because the power delivery is so damn smooth and linear, you really don’t feel how fast the car actually is. The power creeps up on you and just continually pulls until you shift at 8600rpm. There is nothing eventful going on during this; no neck snapping, no sudden rush of power. This car is deceptively quick. I personally feel that past 50mph this car begins to shine. Down low, under 6500rpm it is gutless. This in part to the lack of stroke, and the nature of centrifugal superchargers. The power builds with rpm, and because if this, if you are not in the meat of the powerband (6500+) this car is uneventful. However, once you cross that threshold and are throwing the tach north of 7000rpm, this car becomes alive. It pulls very strongly up top, and due to the shorter gears, once your past 3rd gear, you never drop under 7000rpm when shifting at 8600rpm. This is where you want to be while racing this car. The lower end of the powerband and rolling into the throttle at 2-3k rpm leaves much to be desired, but the centrifugal blower paired with a short stroke, high compression 8600rpm capable V8 makes you tingle in your holiest of holies when you stand on the throttle past 6.5k! Now, on to the GTR. The delivery of this car is polar opposite of the blown 4.0 V8 from BMW. This car is just straight violent in the first 3 gears. Nothing, and I mean Nothing short of a hyper car or a very heavily modified street car with traction will stay next to a 700hp E85 GTR south of 80mph. I am still blown away by how much force this car puts out, and how well it puts it down. The stock turbos still take a split second to spool on E85, but once they do, you better make sure your ready to start banging that paddle, because the RPMS hit 7k in the first 3 gears before you can even react half the time. While the car “only” makes 589hp vs the M3’s 613, I firmly believe it’s the addition of over 300 extra lb of torque that manage to propel this machine in a manner that I can only describe as violent. The M3 would get absolutely destroyed in any dig or roll race that took place under 60mph. Before, when it was bone stock, the top end seemed to really lack a punch, but that was solved with the intakes and downpipes. It removed the 4 cats, and restricted 2” inlets that caused the car to fall flat up top. While the M3 makes more power up top, the GTR has so much more under the curve, and almost double the tq. This is evident the moment you line the 2 cars up. I don’t think anything can keep the M3 next to the GTR, at least not when its on E85. Tonight I had my buddy take my M3 out on 91 octane (roughly 570hp) and we ran 3 times from 60-130. I will post the video of this at the end. I think the M3 would need another 100hp to pull out on top from a higher roll (at least 60mph starting point) The GTR just has to much power and torque available under the curve, and the peaky delivery of the M3, while making more peak, just doesn’t have the fortitude through the rpm range to stay close to the GTR. I give the edge to the GTR on modified vs modified.

Dyno of M3 w/ ESS/AR 700 supercharger and AR Design xpipe and exhaust 9psi 100octane 613hp/394tq SAE



Dyno of GTR w/ SBD 700 package @ 20psi on E85 589hp/712tq SAE



Transmissions: Both of my cars are equipped with the DCT variant. Now, both cars retain stock internals on the DCT’s, while the GTR is loaded with LC5 w/ BOTL. This doesn’t affect shifting, but more so just launching. The M3 transmission is very crisp! VERY CRISP! It shifts like butter when you want it to, and when you change the settings, it shifts violently if desired. At WOT, the difference is negligible. While on paper I do believe the M3 shifts faster, you cannot tell in a real world application. The shift time on both are phenomenal. The M3 seems to lag a hair compared to the GTR, but once again, we are splitting hairs over this. In auto mode, the M3’s shifting pattern can also be changed, to shift at a lower or higher rpm via the selector, which is a great function and keep the car from shifting to early, and lugging the car along under light acceleration. Now, the GTR. This car’s DCT is less refined, more clunky, and just doesn’t feel as smooth as the M3. While it’s still lightning fast and performs flawlessly while racing or on the throttle, in daily driving, it is a cumbersome unit. It clunks downshifting, can be jarring at times, and the upshifts (1-2 especially) can jolt the car under light loads. You can tell Nissan engineered this car with performance a priority over comfort with the DCT. Auto mode plain sucks. It shifts the car way to early, and causes it to lug around horribly around town. I never drive this damn thing in auto because of that. Daily use for the DCT is inferior to the M3. I give the M3 the edge by a good margin on the DCT vs the GTR’s.

Below is the video I was talking about with the run from tonight. My GTR was driven by me, on 20psi and E85 (589hp/712tq) The M3 was on pump (roughly down from 613hp/397tq to 570hp/360tq) This is the only video we manged to get, but we ran 3 times. 2 60-130 pulls and a 50-130 The 60 rolls both cars were in 3rd, the 50 roll M3 was in 2nd, GTR was in 3rd. This pull was a 60-130.



The GTR took a second to spool, but once it did, it was game over. M3 stayed doors for about a second until boost hit. When i shut down, My M3 was about 4 cars behind. the 50 roll, the M3 jumped a fender on the hit, but once i spooled up i passed him, and when we shut down I had about 3 cars on it.
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Last edited by Skooterbrah; 12-13-2013 at 01:39 AM.
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      12-13-2013, 12:39 PM   #2
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Excellent comparo! How is the ride on the GTR, I seem to recall hearing it had a rough ride for a DD.
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      12-13-2013, 01:15 PM   #3
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They truly are polar opposite cars. Can't compare the two in the slightest bit other than that they are both coupes with DCT transmissions. Must be nice owning both
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      12-14-2013, 01:09 AM   #4
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Nice write up!

Ill add a few of my own comments.

Just drove my new to me 2010 GT-R back from Virginia and I can say the seats in the M3 are more comfortable for long drives. Was looking to adjust the bolsters when I realized there recaros and don't have adjustments.

The positioning of the the tach in the M3 is in a bad spot if you like the steering wheel down low, whereas the GT-Rs is perfectly positioned. You either have to peak over the top of the steering wheel or scrunch down underneath it to see the M3 hit redline.

The speakers mounted under the front seats in the M3 make the Logic 7 sound system superior to the GT-Rs. The bose speakers in the back seat of the GT-R vibrate the rear window to a blurr.

I agree there isn't the instant throttle response in the GT-R, but when the turbos spool up, what a freakin rush. I haven't heard a peep out my passengers when the GT-R gets going, their speechless, only able to speak after I slow down

And lastly, the GT-R gets a whole lot more attention, most people didn't even know what it was!
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      12-14-2013, 08:43 AM   #5
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Good shit man. Love both cars, thanks for posting your review.
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      12-14-2013, 09:01 AM   #6
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This is awesome; nice write-up! I need to experience a gt-r..
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      12-17-2013, 01:55 AM   #7
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Finally got a chance to log a 60-130 with both vehicles.

At 6000k elevation.

60-130 ESS/AR 700 M3 8.5 sec


60-130 SBD E-700 GTR 7.75 sec
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      12-17-2013, 09:31 AM   #8
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Nice write up brah! Glad you decided to keep the M3 after all! It must be nice having a boosted M3 and an AWD turbo beast

I think you need to do another race @ 40-50mph in 2nd gear. I think the M3 will fair much better. Or if you want to do a 3rd gear pull, start at 75-80mph. I've beat a lot of modded GTRs in the M3 but I had to be right point in the powerband. Although I think the e85 GTR would eventually pull away anyway. But it would be closer.
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      12-17-2013, 12:59 PM   #9
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How about a 60-200 pull?
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      12-17-2013, 08:27 PM   #10
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Holy shit. This makes me excited for my GTR...SBD is local to me
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      12-17-2013, 08:38 PM   #11
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Does the video alter the time at all? I only ask because I've watch both several times with my stop watch and I'm consistently getting 8.32 seconds 60-130 for the M3 and 8.22 seconds 60-130 in the GTR. I've done it now about 20 times each. It doesn't get old watching either of your cars go. Makes me miss my 728 rwhp Cobra. I like my M3 better as a driver and I only have room for one but your cars are awesome and make me home sick for that rush.
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      12-17-2013, 11:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
How about a 60-200 pull?

Hahah, maybe the M would catch up past 160. GTR is still no slouch at highway speeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevJ View Post
Holy shit. This makes me excited for my GTR...SBD is local to me
Dude, go straight to Chris @ SBD. He took amazing care of me, and his prices are PHENOMENAL compared to AMS/Switzer/Boostlogic/Jotech. You will LOVE the SBD E700 package!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin* View Post
Does the video alter the time at all? I only ask because I've watch both several times with my stop watch and I'm consistently getting 8.32 seconds 60-130 for the M3 and 8.22 seconds 60-130 in the GTR. I've done it now about 20 times each. It doesn't get old watching either of your cars go. Makes me miss my 728 rwhp Cobra. I like my M3 better as a driver and I only have room for one but your cars are awesome and make me home sick for that rush.
Negative. The times were both logged via data logging. M3 log showed 8.54 iirc and the GTR was 7.75 on the dot.
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      12-18-2013, 12:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skooterbrah View Post
Hahah, maybe the M would catch up past 160. GTR is still no slouch at highway speeds.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking....that the run to 200 would be a lot closer than the run to 130. I've always felt the M3 does its best work over 140
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      12-18-2013, 12:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skooterbrah View Post
Negative. The times were both logged via data logging. M3 log showed 8.54 iirc and the GTR was 7.75 on the dot.
Gotcha that must be right. Gotta be a in the video then. I've often wondered about that on youtube videos.
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