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      10-31-2013, 04:35 PM   #111
speedaddictM3
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Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
I agree. Mechanical grip should match chassis limitations and engine output. You've gotta have a little slip and slide!
Most cars built for handling do NOT have slip and slide until you get to the very limits of the car. That's how you maximize use of available power and traction. The Z is built to maximize corner grip and put the power down to the pavement to be as fast as possible around a track. it's no different than an M3 in that regard. The FRS is made for fun and sliding around at slow speeds. that's why it has lousy cornering ability and skidpad and slalom numbers. Even if you add power, you still need to upgrade the suspension and the tires before it can handle well. The Z can keep up with a 987.1 Cayman S and totally smokes a BMW Z4, or Mercedes SLK. The FRS will get spanked by a 7 year old Civic SI

You can also see the difference in the suspension engineering. The Z comes with double wishbones with aluminum control arms. The FRS comes with a basic strut suspension with cheapo econobox stamped steel control arms. The FRS can be considered either a RWD competitor to the Civic or an entry level beginner RWD sports car. It isn't god's gift to the motoring world that all the hype makes it out to be.
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      10-31-2013, 04:46 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by speedaddictM3 View Post
Most cars built for handling do NOT have slip and slide until you get to the very limits of the car. That's how you maximize use of available power and traction. The Z is built to maximize corner grip and put the power down to the pavement to be as fast as possible around a track. it's no different than an M3 in that regard. The FRS is made for fun and sliding around at slow speeds. that's why it has lousy cornering ability and skidpad and slalom numbers. Even if you add power, you still need to upgrade the suspension and the tires before it can handle well. The Z can keep up with a 987.1 Cayman S and totally smokes a BMW Z4, or Mercedes SLK. The FRS will get spanked by a 7 year old Civic SI

You can also see the difference in the suspension engineering. The Z comes with double wishbones with aluminum control arms. The FRS comes with a basic strut suspension with cheapo econobox stamped steel control arms. The FRS can be considered either a RWD competitor to the Civic or an entry level beginner RWD sports car. It isn't god's gift to the motoring world that all the hype makes it out to be.
The only reason why the frs/brz slides around is because of the tires. Put those tires on a 370 and i guarantee the 370 will slide around too. Same goes for the m3, stock ps2 with 245/265 you will understeer through corners and have to get on and off throttle to shift the weight of the car to get it pointed in the right direction. With 275/275 you wont have that issue with the M3. I put 235/45/17 RS3 tires on my BRZ and I could easily keep up with e92 M3 and 370z at the track. They only get away on the straights but come a corner I catch up. Stock brake pads are also a joke, they dont bite at all. The problem with the brz/frs is not chassis, i full throttle 90-95% of the time at buttonwillow. The problem with that car is the tires primarily then the fact that it really lacks in horsepower. With the stock suspension, wheels, RS3, brakepad, brake fluid, the brz/frs can run a 2:07 at buttonwillow which is respectably fast for a car with near no mods.
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      10-31-2013, 04:48 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedaddictM3 View Post
Most cars built for handling do NOT have slip and slide until you get to the very limits of the car. That's how you maximize use of available power and traction. The Z is built to maximize corner grip and put the power down to the pavement to be as fast as possible around a track. it's no different than an M3 in that regard. The FRS is made for fun and sliding around at slow speeds. that's why it has lousy cornering ability and skidpad and slalom numbers. Even if you add power, you still need to upgrade the suspension and the tires before it can handle well. The Z can keep up with a 987.1 Cayman S and totally smokes a BMW Z4, or Mercedes SLK. The FRS will get spanked by a 7 year old Civic SI

You can also see the difference in the suspension engineering. The Z comes with double wishbones with aluminum control arms. The FRS comes with a basic strut suspension with cheapo econobox stamped steel control arms. The FRS can be considered either a RWD competitor to the Civic or an entry level beginner RWD sports car. It isn't god's gift to the motoring world that all the hype makes it out to be.
I don't think that's a fair statement. The Z dates back decades has always meant to be a japanese version of and less expensive competitor to other car's in its market (M3, Camaro, Cayman/911, corvette, etc...) the same way the GTR is a less expensive competitor to the 911 Turbo. Its no more track-dedicated or purpose built and deals with the same compromises any manufacturer deals with for making a production car. Now the Nismo would be more track-oriented the same way an M3 GTS, 911 GT3, etc... are.

The FRS isn't in the same category as the 370 or M3. It's more comparable to a MX5, 1-series, Civic, Boxter, etc... It's a less expensive entry-level car with a tire size to match its weight and power. There's nothing wrong with struts when the M3 and Porsche's have used them for decades and it's not the greatest car ever, but for its price point, it's a great handling little car with a crazy low Cg. I hate all of the "you can buy a used X for less" comments because you can get a used C5 Z06 for less than an FRS and blow everything out of the water. There's nothing wrong with either the FRS or 370. I don't think many of the comments on either side are justified when they are attacks on the other brand.

FWIW 370s engines are pretty darn good with an almost identical hp/torque curve as the S54. With a pair of headers it's a pretty impressive motor that can spin to 8K rpm. The FRS is a great handling little car and many are turboing them and throwing decent tires on them and making the car very quick on tracks. It's not far off an S2K in stock trim which is impressive.

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Originally Posted by 6MT M3 View Post
With the stock suspension, wheels, RS3, brakepad, brake fluid, the brz/frs can run a 2:07 at buttonwillow which is respectably fast for a car with near no mods.
I think they are a little faster than that. ~2:05s IIRC. Heck a stock Mazdaspeed 3 does a 2:09.2
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      10-31-2013, 04:54 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by speedaddictM3 View Post
Most cars built for handling do NOT have slip and slide until you get to the very limits of the car. That's how you maximize use of available power and traction. The Z is built to maximize corner grip and put the power down to the pavement to be as fast as possible around a track. it's no different than an M3 in that regard. The FRS is made for fun and sliding around at slow speeds. that's why it has lousy cornering ability and skidpad and slalom numbers. Even if you add power, you still need to upgrade the suspension and the tires before it can handle well. The Z can keep up with a 987.1 Cayman S and totally smokes a BMW Z4, or Mercedes SLK. The FRS will get spanked by a 7 year old Civic SI

You can also see the difference in the suspension engineering. The Z comes with double wishbones with aluminum control arms. The FRS comes with a basic strut suspension with cheapo econobox stamped steel control arms. The FRS can be considered either a RWD competitor to the Civic or an entry level beginner RWD sports car. It isn't god's gift to the motoring world that all the hype makes it out to be.
I'm not trying to make out the 86s to be some kind of perfect product. C'mon, I'm not trying to be GoingTooFast over here.

I'm also not sure where you're getting the lousy handling stats from. To cite an Insideline full test (a team that typically produces conservative testing stats), a BRZ on its lousy rubber manages a 69.1 mph in the slalom, 0.92g on the skidpad, and 114ft 60-0. Those are far from lousy.

And you're completely right; it's not a direct competitor to a 370Z. It's in the same rung as the hot hatch group (+1 Civic Si and Gen Coupe). I really don't care about outright pace since I'm not looking to 1-up the person next to me on the road, and being in FL, I really don't have many places to flex the extra muscle.

Again, I'm saying that the Z is not for me.
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      10-31-2013, 07:52 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by 6MT M3 View Post
I put 235/45/17 RS3 tires on my BRZ and I could easily keep up with e92 M3 at the track.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
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      11-02-2013, 12:42 AM   #116
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I really don't care about outright pace since I'm not looking to 1-up the person next to me on the road, and being in FL, I really don't have many places to flex the extra muscle..
then can you elaborate this "Hold out for the BRZ STI or... Rocket Bunny FRS."?
and you own e92 335i instead of 328i?
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      11-02-2013, 03:52 AM   #117
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then can you elaborate this "Hold out for the BRZ STI or... Rocket Bunny FRS."?
and you own e92 335i instead of 328i?
I think he wants the FRS/BRZ to look more aggressive, so if he gets an frs/brz he's considering the Rocketbunny Widebody or BRZ STi if they ever release one(STi models usually have wider fenders and quarter panels and more aggressive bumpers than base models).

And for the second question. Maybe his preferences have changed and he prefers a better handling car and doesn't need as much power. There's a lot of evo/sti owners that switch to s2ks with less power because it's a more enjoyable ride.
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      11-04-2013, 10:32 AM   #118
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then can you elaborate this "Hold out for the BRZ STI or... Rocket Bunny FRS."?
and you own e92 335i instead of 328i?
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I think he wants the FRS/BRZ to look more aggressive, so if he gets an frs/brz he's considering the Rocketbunny Widebody or BRZ STi if they ever release one(STi models usually have wider fenders and quarter panels and more aggressive bumpers than base models).

And for the second question. Maybe his preferences have changed and he prefers a better handling car and doesn't need as much power. There's a lot of evo/sti owners that switch to s2ks with less power because it's a more enjoyable ride.
Spot-on 100%^^^

It's not like I don't want the torque though; if I had the means, I'd be on the list for an M235i.
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