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      10-22-2013, 02:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billj747 View Post
Back in the day gauges were accurate with needles that moved constantly according to temperature and the gauges actually had temp (or pressure) values on them. Most modern cars (since the 80-90s) don't have accurate gauges or even temperature values, but rather have 'dummy' gauges where if the needle is in the 'middle' it's okay and anything above middle is really bad, so i'm not quite sold on Miller's explanation for a lack of a water temp gauge.
Ok, but if you had a gauge that just told you the degree of "ok-ness", then if a wide range of actual values were ok you'd have to design a gauge that might not move at all even if the actual value was changing, lest drivers be concerned with seemingly erratic gauge movements. That would likely be more complex, it would annoy people who wanted to know the actual values, and in this case it could hardly be called a water temperature gauge at that point since such a gauge wouldn't be correlated to actual temperature but just "ok-ness".

I think BMW probably realized that and thus implemented what we have today: Far more sensors and gauges exist in the car than have needles on our dash, because if everything is ok then the typical driver has no need and likely no desire to see it -- and the "dummy" gauge rather than being implemented as a physical gauge was instead implemented as a warning lamp or message that appears on the dash only when conditions warrant. The only obvious downside to that system is that if the gauge itself is faulty that might not be as obvious as it would be with needle-based gauges, but I guess that's why modern cars have sensors that monitor the other sensors.
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      10-22-2013, 02:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Ok, but if you had a gauge that just told you the degree of "ok-ness", then if a wide range of actual values were ok you'd have to design a gauge that might not move at all even if the actual value was changing, lest drivers be concerned with seemingly erratic gauge movements. That would likely be more complex, it would annoy people who wanted to know the actual values, and in this case it could hardly be called a water temperature gauge at that point since such a gauge wouldn't be correlated to actual temperature but just "ok-ness".
-And that's what pretty much every current car's water temp gauge does, including my E36 M3 -Dummy gauges. I don't recall seeing a modern car in years with real temp values on its water temp gauge.

Well, my 1990 Mustang LX has a proper temp gauge that fluctuates depending on conditions so there's an example of a car in the 80s-90s that actually has a working water temp gauge.
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Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
I think BMW probably realized that and thus implemented what we have today: Far more sensors and gauges exist in the car than have needles on our dash, because if everything is ok then the typical driver has no need and likely no desire to see it -- and the "dummy" gauge rather than being implemented as a physical gauge was instead implemented as a warning lamp or message that appears on the dash only when conditions warrant. The only obvious downside to that system is that if the gauge itself is faulty that might not be as obvious as it would be with needle-based gauges, but I guess that's why modern cars have sensors that monitor the other sensors.
Exactly, so when tracking the car, it goes into Limp Mode because something is too hot. And I think it's the water temp getting up to 230*F and not the oil temp.
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      10-22-2013, 03:33 PM   #25
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lot of folks with n54/5 do actually say that it is indeed the water temps (although their oil gets almost to 300F too! yikes!) and suggest getting a water temp guage, and replacing with water......so it may be the same thing less turbos causing 300F oil temps.
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      10-22-2013, 05:22 PM   #26
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Temps

I'm seeing my logged water temps into the 232 range (112C) and the oil temps in the 280 range after only 4-5 laps. I'm going to start investigating building a better oil cooler.
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      10-22-2013, 09:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by blackey View Post
I'm seeing my logged water temps into the 232 range (112C) and the oil temps in the 280 range after only 4-5 laps. I'm going to start investigating building a better oil cooler.
I'm not sure how high of a pressure radiator cap is on the S65, but either way 23X*F is really hot and probably not good for the motor.

I'd seriously consider a better radiator -like the PWR unit that TMS sells before upgrading the oil cooler.
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      10-22-2013, 10:01 PM   #28
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This is a good revived thread and thanks to all for input. Those that have gone FI route and track their cars I am curious how much added heat goes into the oil temps as well.

This summer I put a 575 kit on and up in Boston we had several days of high humidity and heat. Now I know street driving is very different, but I reference this as I became hesitant for several track events lined up. My oil temps were constantly at or would reach slightly above the third marking on the oil temp in the vehicle. Didn't matter the type of driving I was doing (highway, city or track). I took it to the track on one of those warmer days and after just 3 laps got the engine too hot drive moderately warning.

Been thinking about investing in an oil cooler as we looked at every possible problem their could be related to stock internal plumbing going bad, blockage, etc for the oil to be running so hot.

Has anyone experienced the same in the hotter climates that have FI S65 engines.

Thanks.

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      10-22-2013, 10:54 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billj747
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackey View Post
I'm seeing my logged water temps into the 232 range (112C) and the oil temps in the 280 range after only 4-5 laps. I'm going to start investigating building a better oil cooler.
I'm not sure how high of a pressure radiator cap is on the S65, but either way 23X*F is really hot and probably not good for the motor.

I'd seriously consider a better radiator -like the PWR unit that TMS sells before upgrading the oil cooler.
Wouldn't an oil cooler lower oil temps and lead to lower water temps?
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      10-23-2013, 07:46 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Wouldn't an oil cooler lower oil temps and lead to lower water temps?
Yes it should, but the question is how much would cooler oil bring down the water temps. Since water is a better heat conductor and transfers heat more efficiently than oil, plus with the off the shelf radiators out there, and most of all, if i'm right that the water temps getting into the 230s causing the limp mode, it may hit the nail on the head to fix the problem.

I'd like to hear someone who tracks their car with an aftermarket radiator or oil cooler chime in.
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      10-23-2013, 08:34 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billj747 View Post
Yes it should, but the question is how much would cooler oil bring down the water temps. Since water is a better heat conductor and transfers heat more efficiently than oil, plus with the off the shelf radiators out there, and most of all, if i'm right that the water temps getting into the 230s causing the limp mode, it may hit the nail on the head to fix the problem.

I'd like to hear someone who tracks their car with an aftermarket radiator or oil cooler chime in.
that's the issue we've been struggling with in the N54 track forums for years. We've datalogged slightly reduced oil temps with a zero coolant/OEM radiator setup (WW or Mocool + distilled) but the setup is still only ~5C off the water max, too close for comfort.

It's unfortunate that water/oil-induced limp modes do not leave ECU codes behind that can be read via OBD, if there was a way to do that, it'd point us in the right direction.
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      10-23-2013, 08:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mid-corner fun View Post
that's the issue we've been struggling with in the N54 track forums for years. We've datalogged slightly reduced oil temps with a zero coolant/OEM radiator setup (WW or Mocool + distilled) but the setup is still only ~5C off the water max, too close for comfort.

It's unfortunate that water/oil-induced limp modes do not leave ECU codes behind that can be read via OBD, if there was a way to do that, it'd point us in the right direction.
Tracking turbo cars is all about heat management. You need to make big swings at knocking down temps, not just reducing oil temps by a few degrees. If you bring down the oil temps and still hit limp mode -what's the water temp reaching? and vice versa, if you leave the oil cooling system alone and bring down the water temp, are you still hitting limp mode?
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      10-23-2013, 09:38 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billj747 View Post
Tracking turbo cars is all about heat management. You need to make big swings at knocking down temps, not just reducing oil temps by a few degrees.
100% agreed


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billj747 View Post
If you bring down the oil temps and still hit limp mode -what's the water temp reaching?
110-112C typical when pushed hard, component protection starts at 117C, limp mode at 120C

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billj747 View Post
and vice versa, if you leave the oil cooling system alone and bring down the water temp, are you still hitting limp mode?
yes, at 300F

these are n54/n55 numbers, I've been digging through documentation to find the equivalent S65 numbers but obviously an NA motor will have a much better usable temp range (or at least a better starting line)
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      10-23-2013, 09:54 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mid-corner fun View Post
100% agreed

110-112C typical when pushed hard, component protection starts at 117C, limp mode at 120C

yes, at 300F

these are n54/n55 numbers, I've been digging through documentation to find the equivalent S65 numbers but obviously an NA motor will have a much better usable temp range (or at least a better starting line)
Wow, so you're sustaining 110-112C (230-234*F) water temps on track and getting up to 117C (243*F) where the ECU starts compensating then full limp mode at 120C (248*F)?

While not intimately knowing the details of the S65/N54/N55 motors, in general 110C (230*F) is not good for a production motor and cooling system.

Were you ever able to consistently get the water temps down closer to 210*F (99C) sustained? If so were you still getting into ECU compensation/limp mode?
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      10-23-2013, 12:00 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billj747 View Post
Wow, so you're sustaining 110-112C (230-234*F) water temps on track and getting up to 117C (243*F) where the ECU starts compensating then full limp mode at 120C (248*F)?

While not intimately knowing the details of the S65/N54/N55 motors, in general 110C (230*F) is not good for a production motor and cooling system.

Were you ever able to consistently get the water temps down closer to 210*F (99C) sustained? If so were you still getting into ECU compensation/limp mode?
doesn't look like it, here's the graph I posted earlier in the thread, that's from my Solo DL. No limp modes though, hence why I'd like to know how close to the threshold we are.

That's a 20-25min session (NASA DE4/TT group with mostly prep'ed cars/fast pace) so I'd say that within 7-8 mins in I was already past 99C (210F), all the way to 228F and taper down only on the last few laps which I attribute to driver fatigue more than anything else.

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      10-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #36
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My oil temp floats right above the middle of 210F and 300F so roughly 265. Once I spin out I get the high oil temp warning light.
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      11-01-2013, 04:44 PM   #37
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I'm going to start working on a bolt in larger oil cooler. Larger than the M24 unit, much less expensive.
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      11-05-2013, 03:58 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by blackey View Post
I'm going to start working on a bolt in larger oil cooler. Larger than the M24 unit, much less expensive.
M24 unit is not working up to standards either, not only is it expensive. It is still allowing temps to reach warning levels, then enter limp mode, it's only effect is it is cooling back down faster. I also want to install a larger cooler but the way the oil line connects to the cooler has me stopped since I have no idea how to convert that particular connection which is a bolt that bolts into the cooler itself thought a bracket, but the fitting itself is not threaded (i think). I am looking at fluidyne units and piecing together couple of fittings and lightweight lines. However the biggest current issue is adapting the current oil cooler connector into a AN fitting...please shed some light if anyone has done this already. Same goes for DCT cooler
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      11-05-2013, 09:50 AM   #39
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I have access to a mechanical engineering team and CNC equipment. My plan is to run off about 60 of the stock fittings and then have a local high end welding shop build the coolers. My second option is an aircraft oil cooler shop. Right now I'm trying to find a used oil cooler. Seems they are not abundant.
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      11-05-2013, 01:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dartanium View Post
M24 unit is not working up to standards either, not only is it expensive. It is still allowing temps to reach warning levels, then enter limp mode, it's only effect is it is cooling back down faster. I also want to install a larger cooler but the way the oil line connects to the cooler has me stopped since I have no idea how to convert that particular connection which is a bolt that bolts into the cooler itself thought a bracket, but the fitting itself is not threaded (i think). I am looking at fluidyne units and piecing together couple of fittings and lightweight lines. However the biggest current issue is adapting the current oil cooler connector into a AN fitting...please shed some light if anyone has done this already. Same goes for DCT cooler
Yep, by all accounts, that's what I'm hearing.

And, don't know about other people, but I don't have the time to go around sourcing for some custom cooler and having my car as the test bed.
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      11-06-2013, 09:25 AM   #41
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WWW.pwr.com.au arguably the best oil coolers and radiators on the planet.
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      11-06-2013, 09:26 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartanium View Post
M24 unit is not working up to standards either, not only is it expensive. It is still allowing temps to reach warning levels, then enter limp mode, it's only effect is it is cooling back down faster. I also want to install a larger cooler but the way the oil line connects to the cooler has me stopped since I have no idea how to convert that particular connection which is a bolt that bolts into the cooler itself thought a bracket, but the fitting itself is not threaded (i think). I am looking at fluidyne units and piecing together couple of fittings and lightweight lines. However the biggest current issue is adapting the current oil cooler connector into a AN fitting...please shed some light if anyone has done this already. Same goes for DCT cooler
It will probably be a similar part as the E46M3 hard lines to/from the oil cooler which is a machined adaptor to use -10AN lines.
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      11-06-2013, 09:35 PM   #43
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Also, don't expect to find Pentosin CHF11S on a Sunday.


Pep Boys and some other stores stock it. Not cheap, but they have it. The newer CHF202 is also becoming easier to get in B&M stores.
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      11-06-2013, 11:16 PM   #44
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What are you guys logging these temps with, BTW? Bluetooth dongle and an app?
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