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      10-17-2013, 12:39 PM   #45
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Read it as you want to convince yourself but that is not what it reads
I also talked to the regional manager for the south east and the shop forman for our local dealer yesterday and he said any LL01 oil is approved.
3 separate bulletins

*The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.
•BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
•Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil
◦BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420
or•Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil
◦BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195

The bullets represent 3 different options, there is no part number for the first option. That means any oil outside of castrol that has LL01 approval can be used.
We can argue about it all day because some will never be convinced but it is in writing.
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      10-17-2013, 12:47 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRV View Post
this is how i read it as well, although the grammar leaves too much room for interpretation when you dont use the colon and bold points for everything.
It could also be read as you could only use LL-01 oils approved for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines. At this time are ALL LL-01 synthetic oils approved for those engines?
Another point is if its ok to use Castrol 0E 5W-30...isnt that for the diesel engines?? So confusing but if you are under warranty, i would stick with 10w-60 for sure.
LL04 oil is backward compatable with LL01, it is not just for the diesel
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      10-17-2013, 01:09 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
Read it as you want to convince yourself but that is not what it reads
I also talked to the regional manager for the south east and the shop forman for our local dealer yesterday and he said any LL01 oil is approved.
3 separate bulletins

*The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.
•BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
•Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil
◦BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420
or•Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil
◦BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195

The bullets represent 3 different options, there is no part number for the first option. That means any oil outside of castrol that has LL01 approval can be used.
We can argue about it all day because some will never be convinced but it is in writing.
Yea we could argue all day but not here for that either. Lets say if you are right,and i hope you are, then I just have 1 tiff with the way it is written. If you read it word by word, are all BMW Long-Life rating LL-01 Synthetic oils for BMW M vehicles? Are they saying only LL-01 Synthetics for BMW M vehicles? Btw, they also dont have a colon after the first statement
" *The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time."
That could mean they are not done and saying here is the list. That means they have one other thing to say. Therefore its possible it is not the list following that statement. Look at the oil for the Alpina B7, there is clearly a list.
So then if it is a list as you say, i still think it is saying only BMW LL-01 approved for BMW M engines.
I'd just hate for somebody to go thru hell if anything should happen to their motor, just because there is a possibility that this was all read wrong.
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      10-17-2013, 01:44 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRV View Post
Yea we could argue all day but not here for that either. Lets say if you are right,and i hope you are, then I just have 1 tiff with the way it is written. If you read it word by word, are all BMW Long-Life rating LL-01 Synthetic oils for BMW M vehicles? Are they saying only LL-01 Synthetics for BMW M vehicles? Btw, they also dont have a colon after the first statement
" *The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time."
That could mean they are not done and saying here is the list. That means they have one other thing to say. Therefore its possible it is not the list following that statement. Look at the oil for the Alpina B7, there is clearly a list.
So then if it is a list as you say, i still think it is saying only BMW LL-01 approved for BMW M engines.
I'd just hate for somebody to go thru hell if anything should happen to their motor, just because there is a possibility that this was all read wrong.
What I was told yesterday is if it meets the LL01 rating they have to honor the warranty. They cant say the castrol is good and the mobil is bad just because they are different manufacturers. If they carry the rating they have to go by it.
There are a few oils that say "Meets LL01" this is not the same as "LL01 approval".
I see your point but there is no such thing as a LL01 for M engines certification. The wording is so you will keep buying the castrol but they can't differentiate when it comes down to it.
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      10-17-2013, 02:19 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
What I was told yesterday is if it meets the LL01 rating they have to honor the warranty.
I'd get that in writing, such as in an email from BMW NA. It's easy to imagine BMW trying to get out of a warranty claim by saying that you misread the bulletin and only the two specific oils listed are approved. Better to have something in your file just in case than to rely on verbal representations.
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      10-17-2013, 02:29 PM   #50
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Interesting, I thought about this also, ie 'deliberate ambiguity'. Concept seen in corporate law, where contracts are written in such a way so as to cause enough ambiguity where something can be interpreted either way. A simple letter to BMW NA for clarification should get a response. If no response, then you have to wonder..

Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
I'd get that in writing, such as in an email from BMW NA. It's easy to imagine BMW trying to get out of a warranty claim by saying that you misread the bulletin and only the two specific oils listed are approved. Better to have something in your file just in case than to rely on verbal representations.
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      10-17-2013, 02:46 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
I'd get that in writing, such as in an email from BMW NA. It's easy to imagine BMW trying to get out of a warranty claim by saying that you misread the bulletin and only the two specific oils listed are approved. Better to have something in your file just in case than to rely on verbal representations.
There have also been a few cars out of warranty that tossed rods out locally and they are being replaced under good faith. If it has ever had a S/C though you are SOL
I guess it also depends on how much pull the dealer has.
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      10-17-2013, 02:50 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
There have also been a few cars out of warranty that tossed rods out locally and they are being replaced under good faith. If it has ever had a S/C though you are SOL
I guess it also depends on how much pull the dealer has.
I just sent the question to BMW NA. We'll see what the answer, if any, is.
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      10-18-2013, 02:18 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Interesting, I thought about this also, ie 'deliberate ambiguity'. Concept seen in corporate law, where contracts are written in such a way so as to cause enough ambiguity where something can be interpreted either way. A simple letter to BMW NA for clarification should get a response. If no response, then you have to wonder..
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      10-18-2013, 05:01 PM   #54
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Good news is that courts typically construe such ambiguity against the drafter (i.e., BMW). Bad news is that you'd need to be in a court before that helped you....
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      10-19-2013, 04:51 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
I just sent the question to BMW NA. We'll see what the answer, if any, is.
Cool, yea and if all LL-01 oils are OK hopefully they fix their grammar on the page!
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      10-22-2013, 11:30 AM   #56
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So I heard back from BMW, but not via email. Instead, a representative called me directly to answer my question. I worded my question as follows:
BMW recently released a technical bulletin entitled "BMW CURRENT LISTING OF SYNTHETIC OILS (US Market)" (BMW Recommended/Approved synthetic oils doc. August 2013, Version 2.0).

This bulletin, available on the BMWUSA website, states a change to the approved engine oils for vehicles equipped with the S65 engine, such as my 2011 E90 M3. Specifically, the bulletin states, in part:

*The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.
•BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
•Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil (?BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420)
or
•Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil (BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195)

The above language is unlear in that it can be interpreted in two different ways.

One way is that only "Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil" and "Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil" are approved for the S65 engine.

A second interpretation would be that in addition to the two specifically identified oils (i.e., the 10W60 and 5W30), any LL-01 synthetic oil is approved (such as Mobil 1 0W40 Synthetic Oil).

Could you please clarify which interpretation is correct?
And I was hoping for a simple answer but alas, it was not to be. First, the representative was very nice and wanted to be helful but I concluded that they are very constrained in what they can say. She never answered the question directly and simply stated that BMW Long-life synthetic oils are approved. It became clear that she was also a little confused and her final answer after some back and forth was that BMW recommends the Castrol products listed and BMW Long-life synthetic. With regards to the latter she answered that it was the BMW branded oil but could not answer what weight it was; she also mentioned that some oil was OK for a top-off only but not for a full change. She would not anwer whether Mobil 1 0W40 could be used and said that I could go to the dealer and ask. BMW can recommend only BMW oil or Castrol (presumably due to the contact between the two companies).

So after this fruitless endeavor I looked online a bit more and found a bulletin from January 2008 entitled "BMW Current Listing of Synthetic Oils (US Market)." I think that bulletin helps clarify how the new one should be read. The Jan. 2008 bulletin states, in part:
The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.
BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles
equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines

Castrol TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil, or
Castrol Formula RS SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil
(BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420)
__________________________________________________ _________
If Castrol High Performance Synthetic Oil is not available and you need to add oil between oil changes, only use synthetic oils with the following specifications for M vehicles:
Viscosity – preferred SAE 10W-60
Alternative – SAE 10W-40, SAE 5W-50 or SAE 10W-50
Use only oils with an API rating of SJ/CF, SK/CF or higher
I think the Jan. 2008 bulletin clarifies that the sentence enumerating the M engine types for which the specification applies is just an introductory sentence, and is not meant to be read as allowing any LL-01 oil to be used. It should be read as stating that the only LL-01 oils approved for use in the S65 are the two listed oils.

It's too bad that I did not get a definitive answer from BMW. Nevertheless, I will stick with the 10W60 because of warranty coverage concerns, and won't go to the 0W40.

In researching I did find it interesting that the Castrol site for Australia listed the 10W60 as specified for M engines "which operate under higher pressures."
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      10-22-2013, 12:55 PM   #57
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Thanks, rantar. This is still ridiculous -- intentionally worded to be ambiguous. Does anyone here have contacts within BMW to get a better answer?

There has been considerable discussion on Bob Is The Oil Guy. The interpretation there seems to be "any LL-01-approved oil is okay".

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=3143850
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      10-22-2013, 01:19 PM   #58
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So best bet to be safe when under warranty is to continue to use 10W-60 and follow the warm up process before upping the RPMs. I'm thinking guys/gals out of warranty who use M1 0W-40 that change their oil every 5k miles will be ok. But dont chance it if under warranty. Just not worth the risk ya know.

This is what I got from all of this.
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      10-22-2013, 09:51 PM   #59
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Thanks rantar, no written answers and the verbal one was still ambiguous, but I think your analysis of the wording is spot on and I guess we can use also Castrol Edge 5W-30 professional (which is the low ash diesel one?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
So I heard back from BMW, but not via email. Instead, a representative called me directly to answer my question. I worded my question as follows:
BMW recently released a technical bulletin entitled "BMW CURRENT LISTING OF SYNTHETIC OILS (US Market)" (BMW Recommended/Approved synthetic oils doc. August 2013, Version 2.0).

This bulletin, available on the BMWUSA website, states a change to the approved engine oils for vehicles equipped with the S65 engine, such as my 2011 E90 M3. Specifically, the bulletin states, in part:

*The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.
•BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
•Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil (?BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420)
or
•Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil (BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195)

The above language is unlear in that it can be interpreted in two different ways.

One way is that only "Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil" and "Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil" are approved for the S65 engine.

A second interpretation would be that in addition to the two specifically identified oils (i.e., the 10W60 and 5W30), any LL-01 synthetic oil is approved (such as Mobil 1 0W40 Synthetic Oil).

Could you please clarify which interpretation is correct?
And I was hoping for a simple answer but alas, it was not to be. First, the representative was very nice and wanted to be helful but I concluded that they are very constrained in what they can say. She never answered the question directly and simply stated that BMW Long-life synthetic oils are approved. It became clear that she was also a little confused and her final answer after some back and forth was that BMW recommends the Castrol products listed and BMW Long-life synthetic. With regards to the latter she answered that it was the BMW branded oil but could not answer what weight it was; she also mentioned that some oil was OK for a top-off only but not for a full change. She would not anwer whether Mobil 1 0W40 could be used and said that I could go to the dealer and ask. BMW can recommend only BMW oil or Castrol (presumably due to the contact between the two companies).

So after this fruitless endeavor I looked online a bit more and found a bulletin from January 2008 entitled "BMW Current Listing of Synthetic Oils (US Market)." I think that bulletin helps clarify how the new one should be read. The Jan. 2008 bulletin states, in part:
The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.
BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles
equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines

Castrol TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil, or
Castrol Formula RS SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil
(BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420)
__________________________________________________ _________
If Castrol High Performance Synthetic Oil is not available and you need to add oil between oil changes, only use synthetic oils with the following specifications for M vehicles:
Viscosity – preferred SAE 10W-60
Alternative – SAE 10W-40, SAE 5W-50 or SAE 10W-50
Use only oils with an API rating of SJ/CF, SK/CF or higher
I think the Jan. 2008 bulletin clarifies that the sentence enumerating the M engine types for which the specification applies is just an introductory sentence, and is not meant to be read as allowing any LL-01 oil to be used. It should be read as stating that the only LL-01 oils approved for use in the S65 are the two listed oils.

It's too bad that I did not get a definitive answer from BMW. Nevertheless, I will stick with the 10W60 because of warranty coverage concerns, and won't go to the 0W40.

In researching I did find it interesting that the Castrol site for Australia listed the 10W60 as specified for M engines "which operate under higher pressures."
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      10-22-2013, 10:29 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Thanks rantar, no written answers and the verbal one was still ambiguous, but I think your analysis of the wording is spot on and I guess we can use also Castrol Edge 5W-30 professional (which is the low ash diesel one?)

It is an LL-04 oil, yes, but all LL-04 oils are also LL-01 approved. It is not the other way around though.
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      10-23-2013, 07:07 AM   #61
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If you simply read it as written there are three bullet points thus three options:

1. BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
2. Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil
BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420
or
3. Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil
BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195
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      10-23-2013, 08:11 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
If you simply read it as written there are three bullet points thus three options:

1. BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
2. Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil
BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420
or
3. Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil
BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195
It would seem that way but what LL-01 oils, other than the two Castrol oils listed, are approved for the S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines? It's one thing to say that Mobil 1 0W40 is LL-01 approved but it is another thing to say that it is approved for those engines. I have not been able to find any listing from BMW of LL-01 oils approved for those engines other than the two Castrol oils.

On another forum someone listed the "Operating Fluids" section from TIS. It was dated January 2013 and it indicated:
Motorsport engines using BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil Castrol RS SAE 10W-60 also called Castrol TWS
Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Oil 420 or Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10W-60 Part No. 07 51 0 009 420.
E46 M3 / S54 E36 M roadster, M coupe / S54 from start of production
E90 M3 / S65 M3 from start of production
E92 M3 / S65 M3 from start of production
E93 M3 / S65 M3 from start of production
E39 M5 / S62 up to 3/2000
E52 Z8 / S62 up to 3/2000
E60 M5 / S85 from start of production
E63 M6 / S85 from start of production
E64 M6 / S85 from start of production
E85 Z4 / S54 M Coupe / Z4 M Roadster from start of production
My opinion is that the change only replaced the Castrol RS SAE 10W-60 with the Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 for the U.S. market, and nothing more. The funniest part of all of this is that Castrol literature states that the Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W-30 "[s]hould not be used in BMW gasoline engines outside of the European Union." With all this confusion one thing remains certain - Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 remains approved for the S65.

See: http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/327FECC588E3ADE480257AD3003FBDCB/$File/PDS%20CCSA%20Castrol%20EDGE%20Professional%20OE%20 5W-30%20English.pdf
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      10-23-2013, 08:14 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Thanks rantar, no written answers and the verbal one was still ambiguous, but I think your analysis of the wording is spot on and I guess we can use also Castrol Edge 5W-30 professional (which is the low ash diesel one?)
I am actually not sure at this point. Be very careful because the listed oil is "Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W-30."

Look at this page from the Castrol Australia website listing various 5W-30's:

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/multi...tentId=7024136

It must be that they change the naming convention from continent to continent. The BMW TIS referenced in my prior post states:
The BMW approved motor oil for the diesel powered 335d and the X5 xDrive35d as announced in Service Information
bulletins B00 04 08 and B00 05 08 is the "low-ash" synthetic Castrol SLX Professional OE SAE 5W-30.
Note that TIS identifies the oil as SLX while the new bulletin uses EDGE instead; I do not know if they are the same oil.
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      10-23-2013, 08:19 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
It would seem that way but what LL-01 oils, other than the two Castrol oils listed, are approved for the S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines?
All of them. Thats what the first bullet point says.
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      10-23-2013, 08:43 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
All of them. Thats what the first bullet point says.
I think that's the problem -- it says "BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles". There is no such list of M-specific LL-01 oils. If they had meant the whole LL-01 list, it would just say "BMW LL-01".
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      10-23-2013, 09:10 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
I think that's the problem -- it says "BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles". There is no such list of M-specific LL-01 oils. If they had meant the whole LL-01 list, it would just say "BMW LL-01".
I'm pretty sure:

The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasloline engines, at the present time.

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M Vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines

Means:

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils, for BMW M Vehicles equipped with: S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines



But you can convince yourself whatever you want to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
I disagree. The bulleting only makes two LL01 oils approved for the S65 engine. I believe the bulletin should be read as follows -

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles
equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines:

1) Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil, BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420

or

2) Castrol Edge Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195

The first part tells you that only LL-01 oils may be used in the S65 engine, and the second part tells you that out of all the LL-01 oils, only the two enumerated oils are approved.
I'm pretty sure the EDGE TWS 10W60 is not an LL-01 approved oil -which would defeat the above interpretation.

It only says that they are "endorsed for use in BMW M-Model engines":

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/6FDB8BF64A70767380257B520054A718/$File/BPXE-96ZTLQ.pdf


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Last edited by Billj747; 10-23-2013 at 09:19 AM.
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