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View Poll Results: Should we act
No: It is not our civil war. 66 72.53%
Pending: We need further concrete evidence of chemical warfare. 6 6.59%
Yes: A couple cruise missiles are ok. That's about it though. 6 6.59%
Yes: Strike with significant impact. Hopefully it gets the job done : / 4 4.40%
Yes: Drop the hammer. Time to cripple their military and teach Syria a lesson they won't forget. 9 9.89%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-15-2013, 06:53 PM   #177
BlueZ4Arizona
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This will likely never happen.
I tend to agree with you, but at this point the only choice we have is to try to be as optomistic as we can, since there is an agreement in place.
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      09-16-2013, 03:34 PM   #178
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Wishful thinking is indeed nothing more than a failure of logic. This list of Hillary lies is from 2008:

Admitted Lies

- Chelsea was jogging around the Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001. (She was in bed watching it on TV.)
- Hillary was named after Sir Edmund Hillary. (She admitted she was wrong. He climbed Mt. Everest five years after her birth.)
- She was under sniper fire in Bosnia. (A girl presented her with flowers at the foot of the ramp.)
- She learned in The Wall Street Journal how to make a killing in the futures market. (It didn't cover the market back then.)

Whoppers She Won't Confess To

- She didn't know about the FALN pardons.
- She didn't know that her brothers were being paid to get pardons that Clinton granted.
- Taking the White House gifts was a clerical error.
- She didn't know that her staff would fire the travel office staff after she told them to do so.
- She didn't know that the Peter Paul fundraiser in Hollywood in 2000 cost $700,000 more than she reported it had.
- She opposed NAFTA at the time.
- She was instrumental in the Irish peace process.
- She urged Bill to intervene in Rwanda.
- She played a role in the '90s economic recovery.
- The billing records showed up on their own.
- She thought Bill was innocent when the Monica scandal broke.
- She was always a Yankees fan.
- She had nothing to do with the New Square Hasidic pardons (after they voted for her 1,400-12 and she attended a meeting at the White House about the pardons).
- She negotiated for the release of refugees in Macedonia (who were released the day before she got there).
We're talking about two different things here. Name one politician that hasn't told lies or made mistakes. I could go through the list of crap that anyone else spewed. But that just gets into a tit-for-tat thing that accomplishes nothing and consumes time unnecessarily. Not to mention that someone's actions in the past don't necessarily correlate to potential actions in future unrelated situations if their responsibilities were substantially different. I never claimed that she's always told the truth about everything - nice try at a straw man. What I did say is that she doesn't have a history of saying one thing and doing something else, and I meant it as a comparison to BO.

In terms of resetting the relationship with Russia that Bush had developed, I did see a quotation where she at least implied that the policies of the Bush admin were inoperable, so I see your point. In a situation that was 180 degrees from what we have now, she displayed poor form for sure.

The real relevance here and now is whether or not she would have tolerated the crap from Putin/Asaad the way BO did, given failed bilateral relations with Russia especially since Putin took over. Would she have threatened, only to rescind, military action? And would she go to either of them and badmouth other colleagues in the presence of adversaries? My position is that she wouldn't. Some hysterical regurgitated list on the internet just doesn't apply here.

Especially one by Dick Morris who is not likely to give her a fair shake. Here's the source of the information you swiped/pasted: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...t_of_lies.html

And yes - it is certainly wishful thinking on your part to imply that she would try and become more friendly with an adversary as the relationship circles the drain. There really isn't anything to base that on except, as I alluded to earlier, bias.
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      09-16-2013, 05:14 PM   #179
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From Reagan's autobiography

"Perhaps we didn't appreciate fully enough the depth of the hatred and the complexity of the problems that made the Middle East such a jungle. Perhaps the idea of a suicide car bomber committing mass murder to gain instant entry to Paradise was so foreign to our own values and consciousness that it did not create in us the concern for the marines' safety that it should have.

In the weeks immediately after the bombing, I believe the last thing that we should do was turn tail and leave. Yet the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there. If there would be some rethinking of policy before our men die, we would be a lot better off. If that policy had changed towards more of a neutral position and neutrality, those 241 marines would be alive today."

Save American lives and let those folks deal with their own issues.
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      09-16-2013, 10:08 PM   #180
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We're talking about two different things here. Name one politician that hasn't told lies or made mistakes. I could go through the list of crap that anyone else spewed. But that just gets into a tit-for-tat thing that accomplishes nothing and consumes time unnecessarily. Not to mention that someone's actions in the past don't necessarily correlate to potential actions in future unrelated situations if their responsibilities were substantially different. I never claimed that she's always told the truth about everything - nice try at a straw man. What I did say is that she doesn't have a history of saying one thing and doing something else, and I meant it as a comparison to BO.

In terms of resetting the relationship with Russia that Bush had developed, I did see a quotation where she at least implied that the policies of the Bush admin were inoperable, so I see your point. In a situation that was 180 degrees from what we have now, she displayed poor form for sure.

The real relevance here and now is whether or not she would have tolerated the crap from Putin/Asaad the way BO did, given failed bilateral relations with Russia especially since Putin took over. Would she have threatened, only to rescind, military action? And would she go to either of them and badmouth other colleagues in the presence of adversaries? My position is that she wouldn't. Some hysterical regurgitated list on the internet just doesn't apply here.

Especially one by Dick Morris who is not likely to give her a fair shake. Here's the source of the information you swiped/pasted: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...t_of_lies.html

And yes - it is certainly wishful thinking on your part to imply that she would try and become more friendly with an adversary as the relationship circles the drain. There really isn't anything to base that on except, as I alluded to earlier, bias.
Hillary has been the wife of an elected official, the Senator of a district where she never lived, and her husband bribed her way into the seat with Presidential pardons, and she has a failed track record as Secretary of State. And, she's a habitual liar. If you are okay with that, then everything else probably does look like bias.

Oh - and yes, that's Dick Morris' list. Here's William Safire's list (of the NY Times), from 1996:

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/08/op...d-of-lies.html

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      09-16-2013, 10:10 PM   #181
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From Reagan's autobiography

"Perhaps we didn't appreciate fully enough the depth of the hatred and the complexity of the problems that made the Middle East such a jungle. Perhaps the idea of a suicide car bomber committing mass murder to gain instant entry to Paradise was so foreign to our own values and consciousness that it did not create in us the concern for the marines' safety that it should have.

In the weeks immediately after the bombing, I believe the last thing that we should do was turn tail and leave. Yet the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there. If there would be some rethinking of policy before our men die, we would be a lot better off. If that policy had changed towards more of a neutral position and neutrality, those 241 marines would be alive today."

Save American lives and let those folks deal with their own issues.
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      09-17-2013, 02:21 AM   #182
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Yet the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there. If there would be some rethinking of policy before our men die, we would be a lot better off. If that policy had changed towards more of a neutral position and neutrality, those 241 marines would be alive today."

Save American lives and let those folks deal with their own issues.
But it's not possible. As soon as you leave the Russians/China/other countries will move in for the oil.
Why is South America relatively peaceful? Because there are no anti-America forces operating there..
It's all N./S.Korea folks.. geopolitics of the largest forces of the world. Regional tussles are just minor vortices in the larger stream of U.S. vs. any other force in the world.
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      09-17-2013, 10:39 AM   #183
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But it's not possible. As soon as you leave the Russians/China/other countries will move in for the oil.
Why is South America relatively peaceful? Because there are no anti-America forces operating there..
It's all N./S.Korea folks.. geopolitics of the largest forces of the world. Regional tussles are just minor vortices in the larger stream of U.S. vs. any other force in the world.


Russian Markets Halted as Emergency Funding Fails to Halt Rout
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aIRza4.azeC4

Nothing says "we're %ucked and desperate" like a forced market shutdown. Anyone dealing with Russia at this point needs to bring a long spoon to the table.
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      09-17-2013, 10:55 AM   #184
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Hillary has been the wife of an elected official, the Senator of a district where she never lived, and her husband bribed her way into the seat with Presidential pardons, and she has a failed track record as Secretary of State. And, she's a habitual liar. If you are okay with that, then everything else probably does look like bias.

Oh - and yes, that's Dick Morris' list. Here's William Safire's list (of the NY Times), from 1996:

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/08/op...d-of-lies.html
I'm not trying to make you like Hillary or anything, that's your prerogative either way. The point here is that folks in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. Do feel free to post an example of a politician that rose to prominence and never lied - I'll be thrilled to look into them. It's always a good thing to see an example of someone else's ideal.

Last edited by pt; 09-17-2013 at 10:57 AM. Reason: spelling (rode != rose)
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      09-17-2013, 04:54 PM   #185
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I was dying for someone to ask me this. Your sarcasm is a nice touch too.

Sooooooo......that would be a premature guess on your part, and here's why:

Generally, EVERYONE is satisfied we are trying diplomacy first, and a deal has been met. That was good news. Without the US threat of military action we'd never have gotten to this stage.

However, everyone can agree this situation is a LOOOOOONG way from being resolved. We have a resolution when all the CW are destroyed. We are dealing with a pathological liar in Assad. Assad KNOWS the US can and will consider military force if he steps out of line or disobeys orders. ...and why, because we can. So, our threat of military force will continue to loom.

So, at this stage of the game, hopefully the FACT military force will always loom, will keep Asad in line, and he does not kill any more kids with his CW.
I feel like the time it's going to take for this to resolve is further reason not to engage in any military action. It's going to get dragged out; American soldiers and innocent civilians will die; and in the end, the US doesn't really gain anything from victory.
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      09-17-2013, 08:51 PM   #186
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I'm not trying to make you like Hillary or anything, that's your prerogative either way. The point here is that folks in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. Do feel free to post an example of a politician that rose to prominence and never lied - I'll be thrilled to look into them. It's always a good thing to see an example of someone else's ideal.
We have all watched her for over 20 years now. So we know what we'll get if she is elected in 2016. That's a lot more than we knew when we blindly elected BO in 2008. Even today and after 5 years we are still not sure what we have and what is coming next.

Now back to Topic which is now moot with the current world events
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      09-17-2013, 09:00 PM   #187
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Do feel free to post an example of a politician that rose to prominence and never lied - I'll be thrilled to look into them. It's always a good thing to see an example of someone else's ideal.
Google Ron Paul. Last great statesman.
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      09-17-2013, 09:54 PM   #188
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Google Ron Paul. Last great statesman.
Here you go. This didn't even take me 2 minutes to find...



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Originally Posted by 42 View Post
We have all watched her for over 20 years now. So we know what we'll get if she is elected in 2016. That's a lot more than we knew when we blindly elected BO in 2008. Even today and after 5 years we are still not sure what we have and what is coming next.

Now back to Topic which is now moot with the current world events
Spot on. I'd wholeheartedly agree to getting back on topic but what were we talking about again?

Last edited by pt; 09-17-2013 at 10:00 PM. Reason: Link oopsie
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      09-17-2013, 11:31 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Hillary has been the wife of an elected official, the Senator of a district where she never lived, and her husband bribed her way into the seat with Presidential pardons, and she has a failed track record as Secretary of State. And, she's a habitual liar. If you are okay with that, then everything else probably does look like bias.

Oh - and yes, that's Dick Morris' list. Here's William Safire's list (of the NY Times), from 1996:

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/08/op...d-of-lies.html
I'm not trying to make you like Hillary or anything, that's your prerogative either way. The point here is that folks in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. Do feel free to post an example of a politician that rose to prominence and never lied - I'll be thrilled to look into them. It's always a good thing to see an example of someone else's ideal.
Comparing most politicians truth-stretching to Hillary's "lying-as-an-art-form" is like... Well...
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      09-18-2013, 08:55 PM   #190
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^ So no shining examples of honest politicians yet, huh?

Back on topic, the UN has confirmed that sarin gas was used in Syria. Has anyone seen evidence that would implicate the responsible party?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/t...ttack-20272305
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      09-19-2013, 09:14 AM   #191
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^ So no shining examples of honest politicians yet, huh?
]
John Edwards
John Kerry
Ted Kennedy
Al Frankenstein
Barbara Boxer
Nancy Pelosi
Harry Reid
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      09-19-2013, 04:52 PM   #192
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John Edwards
John Kerry
Ted Kennedy
Al Frankenstein
Barbara Boxer
Nancy Pelosi
Harry Reid
Good on you for throwing in the towel; you had no chance on this one.
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      09-19-2013, 04:56 PM   #193
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^^I don't know, I kinda like everything that I'm hearing from Ted Kennedy as of late.
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      09-21-2013, 11:39 AM   #194
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^^I don't know, I kinda like everything that I'm hearing from Ted Kennedy as of late.
Sobriety is a beautiful thing.
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