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      09-17-2013, 02:13 AM   #67
Soorena
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I'm fairly sure BMW did not get ''big" selling M1's or ZxM's... I think it was probably more to do with high volume sales of core 3-er, 5-er and X product lines, being bought by people who are not "real enthusiasts", but just people who want a nice car.

Also I doubt BMW will make M versions of all the upcoming FWD cars, or the 7 series, and probably not the entire SUV line, and I'm pretty sure they also won't touch the Rolls-Royce brand with the M name, or infact any BMW model nomenclature.

But yes you're plainly correct, BMW obviously don't build "anything that real enthusiasts" care about ... how will they ever survive without a few hundred Z4M sales per year...</sarcasm>

edit:



Umm, they made some parts out of CFRP, they took out alot of stuff, and made some parts out of lighter metals... not exactly that different to the techniques employed with the i8...

.. also.. cheap? The CSL was 40-50% MORE expensive than the M3.
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Originally Posted by Matski View Post


I'm fairly sure BMW did not get ''big" selling M1's or ZxM's... I think it was probably more to do with high volume sales of core 3-er, 5-er and X product lines, being bought by people who are not "real enthusiasts", but just people who want a nice car.

Also I doubt BMW will make M versions of all the upcoming FWD cars, or the 7 series, and probably not the entire SUV line, and I'm pretty sure they also won't touch the Rolls-Royce brand with the M name, or infact any BMW model nomenclature.

But yes you're plainly correct, BMW obviously don't build "anything that real enthusiasts" care about ... how will they ever survive without a few hundred Z4M sales per year...</sarcasm>

edit:



Umm, they made some parts out of CFRP, they took out alot of stuff, and made some parts out of lighter metals... not exactly that different to the techniques employed with the i8...

.. also.. cheap? The CSL was 40-50% MORE expensive than the M3.
Big selling this, big selling that. With all these big selling number cars they make they get enough profit so they can make low selling cars, don't they? Tell your opinion to MB, they have SLK55 AMG which sold LESS than Z4 M. Same goes for the TT-RS. And FYI, it's not always about selling. BMW simply just built M1 for homologation so they could race them. They didn't care about selling. You may find it hard to believe, but there was a time when BMW did not just focus on how to make more money.

They made and will make M versions of their SUV's. Wasn't X4 confirmed to have a future M version? I also remember hearing about M770 or something. As for the FWD cars, i'm pretty sure there will be M FWD cars. M means more buyers, and for BMW more buyers are welcome even if it costs them the brand soul. And the RR was a joke, unlikely to happen but from this BMW anything is possible.

I stand by my statement about real enthusiasts. BMW got big because of their cars were appeal to a certain group of people. But now BMW is much bigger because everyone and their mom have a BMW and that's the point. For being an enthusiasts you don't have to drive an M1 or M3. The guy that drives his E30 320i and enjoy it is an enthusiast. What a E30 driver would chose in your opinion? Z4 M a car that performs or a i8, a Prius supercar?

And by the CSL comment, i pointed to the stripped out interior. By removing all the unneeded extra equipment you can save so much weight at a cheap price.
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      09-17-2013, 03:15 AM   #68
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The M4 is more than a standard 428i or 435i , M4 is its own car this is not the Audi RS5. Everything on the M4 is different , the body is wider to accommodate the wider track and the body panels differ if I were being honest the only exterior components the M4 has shared with the 4er Coupe are the door handles.
How many 325's have been turned into M3's over the years? How many 128/135 owners have been asked if their car is the 1M? Isn't there a thread on this message board concerning a custom made 1M hatch. I recall another thread regarding an E91 being turned into an M3. The internals may be different, the body panels may be slightly different, but to a casual observer the M4 looks very much like the 435 M sport. The M4 should be what everyone aspires to, but few can emulate.
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      09-17-2013, 03:20 AM   #69
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FFS, the will be no i8M/Mi8 or what ever, NEVER. BMW i and BMW M (in future) are to be two individual subrands of BMW, other than through BMW, there is no no connection to both brands. There are 'M' models of BMW cars and there will be "i" models (eDrive) of BMW cars, but there will NEVER be any fusion between 'i' and 'M'. The M stand-alone model (sportscar/supercar) what ever chassis it might use (I think a new CF chassis) will just not be an M version of i8. And you can also forget the "M8" name, There is likely not to be any M model based on the up-coming 8 Series.
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      09-17-2013, 11:43 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
Big selling this, big selling that. With all these big selling number cars they make they get enough profit so they can make low selling cars, don't they? Tell your opinion to MB, they have SLK55 AMG which sold LESS than Z4 M. Same goes for the TT-RS. And FYI, it's not always about selling. BMW simply just built M1 for homologation so they could race them. They didn't care about selling. You may find it hard to believe, but there was a time when BMW did not just focus on how to make more money.
Yes, there was also a time when BMW was nearly bought up by Daimler-Benz. I suppose you'd be happy for that to happen? Although on the subject of the competition, Mercedes (who are a Brand owned by a larger group) will sell you buses, lorries and vans, all carrying the Mercedes Benz logo - they will even sell you AMG accessories for the Vans... You probably have a hissy-fit meltdown if BMW started putting it's logo's on such commercial vehicles (with M accessories) -- so really, how much do you want BMW to be like Mercedes, a brand who have been selling FWD vehicles with their badge on them far longer than BMW have?? And, what about Audi, the wholly (99%) owned subsidiary of, and financially supported, by Volkswagen (one of the worlds largest car manufacturers) that does not have to worry about shareholders at all, who have been selling FWD premium vehicles for decades.... yes maybe BMW should become part of the VW group That would make you happy too I guess.

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Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
They made and will make M versions of their SUV's. Wasn't X4 confirmed to have a future M version? I also remember hearing about M770 or something. As for the FWD cars, i'm pretty sure there will be M FWD cars. M means more buyers, and for BMW more buyers are welcome even if it costs them the brand soul. And the RR was a joke, unlikely to happen but from this BMW anything is possible.
X4M hasn't materialised yet, though I grant you it is very likely. But there is no X1 or X3 M or M performance -- so again, I think you exaggerate... as for the M770, again a rumour, maybe when it turns out to be real you can complain about the M badge being whored out on a 100,000 car...

.. will there be FWD M's, there could be... is it definite? No.. will it be "all" of them... No. So again I think you exaggerate.

But since you are so welcome to speculation, and take it as gospel, then you shouldn't be complaining, because it's speculated that a modern M1 is on it's way... you choose not to believe this rumour though you so keen to believe all the others.

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Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
I stand by my statement about real enthusiasts. BMW got big because of their cars were appeal to a certain group of people. But now BMW is much bigger because everyone and their mom have a BMW and that's the point. For being an enthusiasts you don't have to drive an M1 or M3. The guy that drives his E30 320i and enjoy it is an enthusiast. What a E30 driver would chose in your opinion? Z4 M a car that performs or a i8, a Prius supercar?
You need to take you rose-tinted nostalgia goggles off. BMW has always made models that appeal to the everyday buyer, not just "enthusiasts", yes, there's always been more driver focused machines, but then, there's always been simpler, less powerful cars to support them, and sustain the brand.

You last question is a funny one... I had a 4 door E30 320i for a couple of years, I've had a number of old BMW's (E24, E28, E30, E34), I'm far more interested in the older models than the new to be honest... so what do you think I would choose, an i8 or Z4M?....

I'll give you a clue.. it starts with an 'i', not a 'Z'.

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Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
And by the CSL comment, i pointed to the stripped out interior. By removing all the unneeded extra equipment you can save so much weight at a cheap price.
Fair enough, removing stuff to save weight is simple, effective and relatively cheap. But you suggested that it was some magic formula that only M really understood, whereas actually - this is a concept understood for decades by nearly all the car manufacturers.. and a lot of the weight saving in CSL was made by using expensive lightweight metals, and CFRP.


You can have your opinion, but at least try to see both sides before you bury your head in enthusiast sand.
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      09-17-2013, 03:39 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Soorena
Quote:
Big selling this, big selling that. With all these big selling number cars they make they get enough profit so they can make low selling cars, don't they? Tell your opinion to MB, they have SLK55 AMG which sold LESS than Z4 M. Same goes for the TT-RS. And FYI, it's not always about selling. BMW simply just built M1 for homologation so they could race them. They didn't care about selling. You may find it hard to believe, but there was a time when BMW did not just focus on how to make more money.
The Mercedes-Benz SLK and SL are possibly the worst Mercedes-Benz models ever designed and are by products of an erratic design phase.
Its like two cars stuck together - All angular and sharp at the front with a curvier design at the rear , some say this is because the folding hardtops are carried over from the previous generations. But industry rumours at the IAA point to both receiving a heavy facelift when their mid-life approaches.

The only car which enjoys true success in the Roadster segment is the Porsche Boxster , Audi can justify the TT because of its VAG underpinnings.
SLK is having the same problems as the Z4.

Additional Z4 models do not make the numbers fit and there is far greater demand from the SUV segment especially for performance SUVs.
The markets have changed and sports car drivers in this age have families and other responsibilities.

In regards to the M770i which I am not sure how that title fits especially with a 760Li as your supposed flagship?
Due to the advent of the next generation 7er and its new approach to weight reduction. People are actually talking about but not committing yet about a potential M7. There is nothing to announce yet because it is at this stage a potential idea but the possibilities exist to make it happen especially with the next generation architecture and body construction being introduced with the next 7er.

The core BMW portfolio will enter the Carbon Age beginning with the next 7er with an aim to bring new innovation from BMWi to the luxury sedan segment. If we take the BMW 7er eDRIVE for example which will weigh around or just over the current F10 BMW 520d. BMW are not deceiving you when they say this will be the most technologically advanced 7er yet.
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      09-17-2013, 04:29 PM   #72
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The only car which enjoys true success in the Roadster segment is the Porsche Boxster , Audi can justify the TT because of its VAG underpinnings.
SLK is having the same problems as the Z4.
Hmmm..... the only roadster that is selling well is the only one that is actually sporty. Could it be that people actually want something sporty when they buy a two seater????????
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      09-17-2013, 04:43 PM   #73
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BMW are not deceiving you when they say this will be the most technologically advanced 7er yet.
Good news, I expected the new model to be less advanced than the outgoing model
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      09-17-2013, 05:12 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Yes, there was also a time when BMW was nearly bought up by Daimler-Benz. I suppose you'd be happy for that to happen? Although on the subject of the competition, Mercedes (who are a Brand owned by a larger group) will sell you buses, lorries and vans, all carrying the Mercedes Benz logo - they will even sell you AMG accessories for the Vans... You probably have a hissy-fit meltdown if BMW started putting it's logo's on such commercial vehicles (with M accessories) -- so really, how much do you want BMW to be like Mercedes, a brand who have been selling FWD vehicles with their badge on them far longer than BMW have?? And, what about Audi, the wholly (99%) owned subsidiary of, and financially supported, by Volkswagen (one of the worlds largest car manufacturers) that does not have to worry about shareholders at all, who have been selling FWD premium vehicles for decades.... yes maybe BMW should become part of the VW group That would make you happy too I guess.
I'm not sure what is being discussed here to be honest. Are we talking about cars, or owners? I should say you sound like a BMW manager when you talk about sale numbers, ownership, etc... I don't know how Daimler trucks (which are the finest trucks out there i ran a trucking company) has anything to do with the fact that BMW is no longer what it used to be oh and trying to hate on MB for selling trucks was a fanboyish move IMHO. BMW was something special, but now it's just another German manufacture.

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X4M hasn't materialised yet, though I grant you it is very likely. But there is no X1 or X3 M or M performance -- so again, I think you exaggerate... as for the M770, again a rumour, maybe when it turns out to be real you can complain about the M badge being whored out on a €100,000 car...
Hopefully you sir will be still around when those models come. I usually hate to use the "I told you so" phrase, but i will say that to you if you don't mind.


Quote:
But since you are so welcome to speculation, and take it as gospel, then you shouldn't be complaining, because it's speculated that a modern M1 is on it's way... you choose not to believe this rumour though you so keen to believe all the others.
Last time i checked Scott said from a financial stand point M1 doesn't make sense. And iirc, BMW M director said that BMW didn't give them green light for a supercar. And one thing to be noted, by supercar i mean a real supercar. Not a electric toy with a blender motor.

Quote:
You need to take you rose-tinted nostalgia goggles off. BMW has always made models that appeal to the everyday buyer, not just "enthusiasts", yes, there's always been more driver focused machines, but then, there's always been simpler, less powerful cars to support them, and sustain the brand.
Is there any lesser model than E30 316i? That car rocked. I drove one before i got my license. Do i enjoy driving a top of the line F30 as much as i enjoyed that car? No. And even that car which is weak in your eyes was just more driver focused than anything other manufactures offered in that class. People tend to say the W201 was a close rival, but the fact is it wasn't. The E30 was different than anything it had in that class.

Quote:
You last question is a funny one... I had a 4 door E30 320i for a couple of years, I've had a number of old BMW's (E24, E28, E30, E34), I'm far more interested in the older models than the new to be honest... so what do you think I would choose, an i8 or Z4M?....

I'll give you a clue.. it starts with an 'i', not a 'Z'.
That's quite a shame then.

Quote:
Fair enough, removing stuff to save weight is simple, effective and relatively cheap. But you suggested that it was some magic formula that only M really understood, whereas actually - this is a concept understood for decades by nearly all the car manufacturers.. and a lot of the weight saving in CSL was made by using expensive lightweight metals, and CFRP.
BMW understood that concept? very cool. So give me a moment to remember when was the last time they used that concept. Hmmm, i don't remember. Do you?

Quote:
You can have your opinion, but at least try to see both sides before you bury your head in enthusiast sand.
You are correct, i will. But i will stay hate on BMW

Last edited by Soorena; 09-17-2013 at 05:22 PM.
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      09-17-2013, 05:20 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Originally Posted by Soorena

The Mercedes-Benz SLK and SL are possibly the worst Mercedes-Benz models ever designed and are by products of an erratic design phase.
Its like two cars stuck together - All angular and sharp at the front with a curvier design at the rear , some say this is because the folding hardtops are carried over from the previous generations. But industry rumours at the IAA point to both receiving a heavy facelift when their mid-life approaches.
This has to be one of the very rare moments when i agree with you. The SLK looks horrible and the SL lost it's luxury touch IMO. Very unattractive cars.

Quote:
The only car which enjoys true success in the Roadster segment is the Porsche Boxster , Audi can justify the TT because of its VAG underpinnings.
SLK is having the same problems as the Z4.
That's my point. SLK is not selling well, yet AMG still offers one. They even gave it a unique engine. M can just drop a S65 in Z4, they don't need to design a new engine.

Quote:
Additional Z4 models do not make the numbers fit and there is far greater demand from the SUV segment especially for performance SUVs.
The markets have changed and sports car drivers in this age have families and other responsibilities.
That's saddening.

Quote:
In regards to the M770i which I am not sure how that title fits especially with a 760Li as your supposed flagship?
Due to the advent of the next generation 7er and its new approach to weight reduction. People are actually talking about but not committing yet about a potential M7. There is nothing to announce yet because it is at this stage a potential idea but the possibilities exist to make it happen especially with the next generation architecture and body construction being introduced with the next 7er.
But someone actually in BMW is thinking about a potential M7, but no Z4 M, right?

Quote:
The core BMW portfolio will enter the Carbon Age beginning with the next 7er with an aim to bring new innovation from BMWi to the luxury sedan segment. If we take the BMW 7er eDRIVE for example which will weigh around or just over the current F10 BMW 520d. BMW are not deceiving you when they say this will be the most technologically advanced 7er yet.
Good piece of news.
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