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      07-21-2013, 10:09 PM   #111
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I trust the jury's 15 hour deliberation was sufficient in making the right decision. I don't really care either way how they ruled but I do have a strong opinion on how this thing turned about race. I mean, only in America can a black person and a Hispanic person be involved and the media and the race-baiters like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Barack Obama blame the white people.
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      07-21-2013, 10:19 PM   #112
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There should be something like Mutual combat that excludes firearms or deadly weapons, if you haven't seen this, this is interesting

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      07-21-2013, 10:44 PM   #113
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When i put myself in the positions of each person in the same alleged situation i find myself doing something different if i were in TM's position and doing the same thing if i were in GZ's position...
Excellent point.
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      07-22-2013, 12:42 AM   #114
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When i put myself in the positions of each person in the same alleged situation i find myself doing something different if i were in TM's position and doing the same thing if i were in GZ's position. Switching places with them after GZ was out of his truck i mean.
Well, I am relieved that you do not live anywhere near any of my nephews.
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      07-22-2013, 06:10 AM   #115
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Yeah, the days of settling something outside are gone. People are just different. 20 years ago when two guys got into a heated argument it was settled with a fight. But the people in the fight were still reasonable. If one was really beating the other, the fight would end either by the winner stoping or the loser giving up. And sometimes these fights were even followed up with them have a beer together.

Now when someone is losing they just keep coming or talking shit or run home to get friends. And lots of time the guy that is the winner doesn't stop. We've all seen videos of fights where someone knocks another guy out and after he's out he AND his friends continues to kick the guy, then piss on him and rob him.

There are no more gentlemanly fights anymore. People are too prideful and unpredictable anymore.

So yes you're right. Don't start shit, there won't be shit. Seems perfectly fine with me. You should always be in control of your actions and emotions.
Growing up and Canada and HK standing up for yourself served okay, but it doesn't apply to known criminals (who are prone to violence and have don't value their life, so you can never make them back down, you should never put your life on line against someone who doesn't value theirs) and when you're not in a country where you're not familiar with the laws.
When I have kids I am not going to teach them the same thing, avoiding and defusing is the only option - there is no more 'standing your ground' when any confrontation can end deadly.
And if where you live the laws are such that deadly force in self-defence is permisible, you may want to carry and carry the attitude "don't touch me, i have a gun - don't touch me"
Gotta start teaching the kids to rat out and get on the good side of teachers (authority figures) rather than "If Johnny hits you, you hit him back, okay?"
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      07-22-2013, 08:08 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Growing up and Canada and HK standing up for yourself served okay, but it doesn't apply to known criminals (who are prone to violence and have don't value their life, so you can never make them back down, you should never put your life on line against someone who doesn't value theirs) and when you're not in a country where you're not familiar with the laws.
When I have kids I am not going to teach them the same thing, avoiding and defusing is the only option - there is no more 'standing your ground' when any confrontation can end deadly.
And if where you live the laws are such that deadly force in self-defence is permisible, you may want to carry and carry the attitude "don't touch me, i have a gun - don't touch me"
Gotta start teaching the kids to rat out and get on the good side of teachers (authority figures) rather than "If Johnny hits you, you hit him back, okay?"
Anybody that tangles with a stranger risks everything. Unless trapped, unless you have to stand and defend someone else that is trapped, move away. There is no shame is minimizing your opportunities to get killed or crippled by a stranger who is capable of anything. Concealed carry is the ultimate tool in allowing you to disengage or, if you can't, to do what has to be done. My carry is not suitable for a real no-kidding gunfight, too small. Now, for me at least, the rules change if I am in my home. Also, the capability of the weapons at my disposal changes radically in both range and lethality. Force me on the street--you win. Challenge me at home, maybe a different end result.
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      07-22-2013, 09:07 AM   #117
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Well, I am relieved that you do not live anywhere near any of my nephews.
Why is that? Are your nephews prone to starting fist fights with people and then continuing to beat them once on the ground?

The ignorance of non carrying people is astounding. The VAST majority of people who carry a firearm avoid conflict like it's the black plague. Non of us want to shoot people and we certainly don't want to be George Zimmerman.

I love shooting guns at the range, in the woods, at watermelons, bowling pins, steel targets, etc.... But i hope i NEVER have to use one against another human being. You poll other CCW holders and you'll likely get the same answer more than 90% of the time.

Use your brain and get your head out of the TV.
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      07-22-2013, 09:41 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Growing up and Canada and HK standing up for yourself served okay, but it doesn't apply to known criminals (who are prone to violence and have don't value their life, so you can never make them back down, you should never put your life on line against someone who doesn't value theirs) and when you're not in a country where you're not familiar with the laws.
When I have kids I am not going to teach them the same thing, avoiding and defusing is the only option - there is no more 'standing your ground' when any confrontation can end deadly.
And if where you live the laws are such that deadly force in self-defence is permisible, you may want to carry and carry the attitude "don't touch me, i have a gun - don't touch me"
Gotta start teaching the kids to rat out and get on the good side of teachers (authority figures) rather than "If Johnny hits you, you hit him back, okay?"
It was the same way here. We didn't tolerate bullies in school. Standing up to them was the way to handle it. I totally get you instructing your kids to turn tail and find a teacher when a confrontation comes up. But i have to ask, what are you going to instruct your teenager to do when someone attacks him for talking to his girlfriend? Some people don't give you a chance to turn tail for safety. And what are you going to tell him to do when the bad guy continues to beat him while he's on the ground just shielding his head and face? Are you going to tell him to wait patiently for the bad guy to finish and go away so he can go find an authority figure? Or are you going to tell him to defend himself? And what happens if it seems his life is in immediate danger? Will you tell him ask the bad guys to let him up so he can go find a cop? These are real questions, good people sometimes get in to bad situations when minding their own business. In fact you've been arguing that exact point. You have been saying that is what TM was doing the whole time and in a few posts you said he was justified in starting the fight.
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Is Trayvon justified in reaching for the gun? In my mind, absolutely, because a random dude who is following you with a GUN - what do you do? You fight for your motherf**ing life.
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Anybody that tangles with a stranger risks everything. Unless trapped, unless you have to stand and defend someone else that is trapped, move away. There is no shame is minimizing your opportunities to get killed or crippled by a stranger who is capable of anything. Concealed carry is the ultimate tool in allowing you to disengage or, if you can't, to do what has to be done. My carry is not suitable for a real no-kidding gunfight, too small. Now, for me at least, the rules change if I am in my home. Also, the capability of the weapons at my disposal changes radically in both range and lethality. Force me on the street--you win. Challenge me at home, maybe a different end result.
This is what people who don't carry don't understand. When most people are carrying and there is any type of disturbance where they are, usually their first instinct is to distance themselves from it.


An example for those who don't carry....

Say the wife and i are out getting some ice-cream on the way home from a friends house. Some guys come in and are drunk and are acting rudely to other patrons. I leave, immediately. Because the moment those guys came in, the odds of some type of stupid fight breaking out just increased dramatically. Even if it's between other people, it's a situation i don't want to be in, especially while armed. Because even if i have no intent on drawing a weapon, while fighting and wrestling around my firearm may become visible. Then there is the possibility of them trying to grab it or possibly going to the authorities to tell them i brandished a weapon. All reasons to avoid conflict even more while armed.

This is usually where someone says well why carry a pistol at all. Well, what if you can't get out of the situation? What if people mouth off to you and you attempt to leave but they block your path to your car? Now because you've attempted to leave they may think you're weak and target you. (Which would have happened if your armed or not) Now there are 4 guys cornering you and your wife and you have no means of escape.

What then? Most people don't have the skills to take on 4 guys. You could try your luck with Jack Reacher logic, but that won't always work either. Yes, this situation is very, very rare, but it's those rare, freak situations that i don't want my family telling people about when they explain my death.
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      07-22-2013, 10:23 AM   #119
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I gotta ask the folks who carry concealed... where on earth do you guys live? Some of these hypothetical scenarios like I'm out getting ice cream with the wife and I encounter drunken dudes who ask for trouble, how do you even come up with this? I have no problems with gun ownership, but some of the reasons to conceal carry are so far fetched IMHO. I have two tours in Somalia under my belt, and I'm pretty confident that I can handle a bunch of drunken dudes, but not if everybody starts packing heat.

I believe in standing your ground and self defense, and I also believe in walking away, but outside the military I never felt the need to carry a firearm.
Tell that to the guy that sold me my hunting rifle.

Him and his wife were eating in a restaurant and one of the waitress' ex boyfriend came in and started shooting, trying to shoot her for breaking up with him for another guy. Two people were injured before someone with a concealed carry shot him in the leg (he was moving towards the back of the restaurant after her) and another was able to disarm him when he went down. Luckily no one was killed, but who knows how many could have been killed if his rampage continued. These kinds of stories don't make it on the national news.

Just because you never experienced something bad doesn't mean it never happens...
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      07-22-2013, 11:02 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Growing up and Canada and HK standing up for yourself served okay, but it doesn't apply to known criminals (who are prone to violence and have don't value their life, so you can never make them back down, you should never put your life on line against someone who doesn't value theirs) and when you're not in a country where you're not familiar with the laws.
When I have kids I am not going to teach them the same thing, avoiding and defusing is the only option - there is no more 'standing your ground' when any confrontation can end deadly.
And if where you live the laws are such that deadly force in self-defence is permisible, you may want to carry and carry the attitude "don't touch me, i have a gun - don't touch me"
Gotta start teaching the kids to rat out and get on the good side of teachers (authority figures) rather than "If Johnny hits you, you hit him back, okay?"
Is there anywhere in the civilized world where deadly force in self defense isn't permissible? Does that country train all their citizens in non-lethal threat neutralization? Are you expected to just die if you can't safely subdue your attacker?
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      07-22-2013, 11:03 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I gotta ask the folks who carry concealed... where on earth do you guys live? Some of these hypothetical scenarios like I'm out getting ice cream with the wife and I encounter drunken dudes who ask for trouble, how do you even come up with this? I have no problems with gun ownership, but some of the reasons to conceal carry are so far fetched IMHO. I have two tours in Somalia under my belt, and I'm pretty confident that I can handle a bunch of drunken dudes, but not if everybody starts packing heat.

I believe in standing your ground and self defense, and I also believe in walking away, but outside the military I never felt the need to carry a firearm.
Well, i used ice cream because one of, if not the best places to get ice cream is just blocks away from one of the worst neighborhoods in town and they're open till 1am. No inside seating, everything is outside. Personally only saw one tussle break out there. But after the last stabbing, i decided to not go there anymore after 9pm. Before that it was usually around 11pm to 12am that we would be there.

As stated above, not every altercation makes national news. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Also, not everyone has two tours of Somalia under their belt to prepare them to take on 4 assailants.
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      07-22-2013, 11:23 AM   #122
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I can't speak for everyone, but i feel a far greater responsibility to stay out of trouble when carrying. That in itself reduces the amount of situations i would be in that could theoretically be escalated.
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      07-22-2013, 12:03 PM   #123
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I can't speak for everyone, but i feel a far greater responsibility to stay out of trouble when carrying. That in itself reduces the amount of situations i would be in that could theoretically be escalated.
I stay out of trouble in general. Fight vs. flight. I'd rather run and live than possibly get stabbed/shot in an altercation, regardless of how tough I think I might be in a fight. Knowing nothing about what the other person is capable of (illegally carrying a gun, having a knife, etc), it makes me much more reluctant to put myself in that type of a situation in the first place. If I'm in a situation where I must fight or die, then obviously I will fight. But you just never know. I stay in public, well lit places. I specifically choose movie theaters that are 30+ minutes out of the way because I know they have a strong police presence and are in better areas.

It's a shame we live in a world where a law abiding citizen like you can't go to eat ice cream at a place at 11 PM or so anymore because of criminals and such that like to cause a commotion. I find that as I grew a bit older, house parties and early nights out have become much more common for me, instead of bars and stuff. It's not just because I don't want to party anymore, I really do and I enjoy partying with friends. It's just that I value my life (and my family) a lot more and would rather avoid possible incidents.

My soon-to-be works at a hospital down town here in the pediatric ICU. In the last week she has had four victims of gang related violence (all of them suffered gunshot wounds and one died). One of them was a 16 year old kid that was shot in the head and killed at a pool party because a fight broke out. It's horrible...
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      07-22-2013, 12:05 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Anybody that tangles with a stranger risks everything. Unless trapped, unless you have to stand and defend someone else that is trapped, move away. There is no shame is minimizing your opportunities to get killed or crippled by a stranger who is capable of anything. Concealed carry is the ultimate tool in allowing you to disengage or, if you can't, to do what has to be done. My carry is not suitable for a real no-kidding gunfight, too small. Now, for me at least, the rules change if I am in my home. Also, the capability of the weapons at my disposal changes radically in both range and lethality. Force me on the street--you win. Challenge me at home, maybe a different end result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
It was the same way here. We didn't tolerate bullies in school. Standing up to them was the way to handle it. I totally get you instructing your kids to turn tail and find a teacher when a confrontation comes up. But i have to ask, what are you going to instruct your teenager to do when someone attacks him for talking to his girlfriend? Some people don't give you a chance to turn tail for safety. And what are you going to tell him to do when the bad guy continues to beat him while he's on the ground just shielding his head and face? Are you going to tell him to wait patiently for the bad guy to finish and go away so he can go find an authority figure? Or are you going to tell him to defend himself? And what happens if it seems his life is in immediate danger? Will you tell him ask the bad guys to let him up so he can go find a cop? These are real questions, good people sometimes get in to bad situations when minding their own business. In fact you've been arguing that exact point. You have been saying that is what TM was doing the whole time and in a few posts you said he was justified in starting the fight.



This is what people who don't carry don't understand. When most people are carrying and there is any type of disturbance where they are, usually their first instinct is to distance themselves from it.


An example for those who don't carry....

Say the wife and i are out getting some ice-cream on the way home from a friends house. Some guys come in and are drunk and are acting rudely to other patrons. I leave, immediately. Because the moment those guys came in, the odds of some type of stupid fight breaking out just increased dramatically. Even if it's between other people, it's a situation i don't want to be in, especially while armed. Because even if i have no intent on drawing a weapon, while fighting and wrestling around my firearm may become visible. Then there is the possibility of them trying to grab it or possibly going to the authorities to tell them i brandished a weapon. All reasons to avoid conflict even more while armed.

This is usually where someone says well why carry a pistol at all. Well, what if you can't get out of the situation? What if people mouth off to you and you attempt to leave but they block your path to your car? Now because you've attempted to leave they may think you're weak and target you. (Which would have happened if your armed or not) Now there are 4 guys cornering you and your wife and you have no means of escape.

What then? Most people don't have the skills to take on 4 guys. You could try your luck with Jack Reacher logic, but that won't always work either. Yes, this situation is very, very rare, but it's those rare, freak situations that i don't want my family telling people about when they explain my death.
This guy was trying to defend his Japanese car in China during anti-Japanese protests. That is a bicycle lock being swung. The guy was paralysed.
Warning: extreme violence (non-gore)


While standing up for yourself in a non-legal gun society works 90-99% of the time, I am starting to think my luck will run dry one day, and an absolute maniac like this guy will react in this way to a 1% standing up for yourself.
Better safe than sorry, I suppose, let the cops (there are a lot of them in HK) handle 'force' and you be the civilian.
Where there are no cops or there are alot of baddies in general it's different, ofcourse.

I don't know what I would teach my kids, but definitely less force than I used.
Only as the last option, cuz the rare crazies can be set off so easily if you display any force..

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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
Is there anywhere in the civilized world where deadly force in self defense isn't permissible? Does that country train all their citizens in non-lethal threat neutralization? Are you expected to just die if you can't safely subdue your attacker?
I don't know, but I think America probably stands out in justifiable deadly force in self-defence, in other countries you would probably go to jail for something at least.
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      07-22-2013, 01:17 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
This guy was trying to defend his Japanese car in China during anti-Japanese protests. That is a bicycle lock being swung. The guy was paralysed.
Warning: extreme violence (non-gore)


While standing up for yourself in a non-legal gun society works 90-99% of the time, I am starting to think my luck will run dry one day, and an absolute maniac like this guy will react in this way to a 1% standing up for yourself.
Better safe than sorry, I suppose, let the cops (there are a lot of them in HK) handle 'force' and you be the civilian.
Where there are no cops or there are alot of baddies in general it's different, ofcourse.

I don't know what I would teach my kids, but definitely less force than I used.
Only as the last option, cuz the rare crazies can be set off so easily if you display any force..


I don't know, but I think America probably stands out in justifiable deadly force in self-defence, in other countries you would probably go to jail for something at least.
That's a sad video.

I think most countries allow deadly force if your life is in danger. It's a basic human right, really. In the United States, as in other countries, you may have to go to court to demonstrate that your life was in danger. Then depending on the outcome, you'd be punished or not.

But if you can justify that your life was in danger, I don't know of any "free" countries that would punish you for defending yourself.
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      07-22-2013, 01:25 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
I stay out of trouble in general. Fight vs. flight. I'd rather run and live than possibly get stabbed/shot in an altercation, regardless of how tough I think I might be in a fight. Knowing nothing about what the other person is capable of (illegally carrying a gun, having a knife, etc), it makes me much more reluctant to put myself in that type of a situation in the first place. If I'm in a situation where I must fight or die, then obviously I will fight. But you just never know. I stay in public, well lit places. I specifically choose movie theaters that are 30+ minutes out of the way because I know they have a strong police presence and are in better areas.

It's a shame we live in a world where a law abiding citizen like you can't go to eat ice cream at a place at 11 PM or so anymore because of criminals and such that like to cause a commotion. I find that as I grew a bit older, house parties and early nights out have become much more common for me, instead of bars and stuff. It's not just because I don't want to party anymore, I really do and I enjoy partying with friends. It's just that I value my life (and my family) a lot more and would rather avoid possible incidents.

My soon-to-be works at a hospital down town here in the pediatric ICU. In the last week she has had four victims of gang related violence (all of them suffered gunshot wounds and one died). One of them was a 16 year old kid that was shot in the head and killed at a pool party because a fight broke out. It's horrible...
Me too man, i don't need drama in my life. Let TNT have all the drama they want. Carrying or not i always have an exit strategy in my head when in suspect places.
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      07-22-2013, 01:43 PM   #127
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I gotta ask the folks who carry concealed... where on earth do you guys live? Some of these hypothetical scenarios like I'm out getting ice cream with the wife and I encounter drunken dudes who ask for trouble, how do you even come up with this? I have no problems with gun ownership, but some of the reasons to conceal carry are so far fetched IMHO. I have two tours in Somalia under my belt, and I'm pretty confident that I can handle a bunch of drunken dudes, but not if everybody starts packing heat.

I believe in standing your ground and self defense, and I also believe in walking away, but outside the military I never felt the need to carry a firearm.
Good for you, don't carry, free country (well, at least most places).
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      07-22-2013, 02:28 PM   #128
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I have no problems with gun ownership, but some of the reasons to conceal carry are so far fetched IMHO.
There's real world examples of these hypothetical scenarios every day. You just hope they don't happen to you and if they do, you hope you have a means to protect yourself.

Here's an example very close to me from just earlier this month. Have friends that spoke to with the victims the day before. They'd made a purchase and intended to pick up jewelry later the next day (day of the crime). Victims were helpless as the attacker shot one woman and stabbed the other. A third man was also shot AND stabbed but survived. I'm thankful my friends weren't there to pick up at the time the attack happened.

These are the hypothetical situations that people talk about. It's only far fetched in the sense that the likelihood that it will happen to YOU is low (although the likelihood that it WILL happen is not). Everyone hopes that they will never be in a situation like that. But if the situation does occur, some people don't wish to leave their lives in the hands of their attackers and choose to carry concealed.

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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I have two tours in Somalia under my belt, and I'm pretty confident that I can handle a bunch of drunken dudes
Imagine that same encounter with your gf or wife. Or smaller man who doesn't have military training. I'd imagine they'd feel less confident that they could handle a bunch of drunken dudes.
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      07-22-2013, 06:35 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
Some good points for sure.

I think if you carry concealed you need tons of training to utilize that firearm in extreme situations, otherwise that gun will be useless if it doesn't scare off any potential threat by sight alone. Having some safety training and some hours of target shooting won't mean much if the adrenaline is surging through you and you have to shoot a moving target.

Since you brought up some terrible situations I can guarantee you that carrying a gun alone won't help you.
I don't know if I'd say "useless" but I agree that training is very important and anyone serious about their safety and SURELY serious enough to get a CCW should be taking training seriously. People who go through the process for CCW, tend to be serious. Depending on the county, it can be very difficult. There is a shooting test to qualify for it but I'm sure it's not very hard for anyone who's a decent shot.

Keep in mind though, whatever range time and training I have, I'm sure the attacker in that jewelry store had less. It's simply easy to hit scared, defenseless targets.

If you happen to be carrying, and you draw your weapon, his adrenaline will spike as well as yours. You guys might quickly exchange poor shots, but I wouldn't imagine that a criminal with an illegal gun has spent more time at the range with it than me and my legal one.

And dying while exchanging gunfire is better that dying while crying for help or being stabbed to death. That's why I wouldn't necessarily use the word "useless". I'd be willing to use "much less effective".
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      07-22-2013, 06:38 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Growing up and Canada and HK standing up for yourself served okay, but it doesn't apply to known criminals (who are prone to violence and have don't value their life, so you can never make them back down, you should never put your life on line against someone who doesn't value theirs) and when you're not in a country where you're not familiar with the laws.
When I have kids I am not going to teach them the same thing, avoiding and defusing is the only option - there is no more 'standing your ground' when any confrontation can end deadly.
And if where you live the laws are such that deadly force in self-defence is permisible, you may want to carry and carry the attitude "don't touch me, i have a gun - don't touch me"
Gotta start teaching the kids to rat out and get on the good side of teachers (authority figures) rather than "If Johnny hits you, you hit him back, okay?"
Looking back at the posts, it looks like the thread somehow morphed at this point into a conversation about "stand your ground". Some clarity might be warranted: "Stand your ground" only means that one is not required to retreat or run to claim self-defense as a justification for a homicide crime. All of the requirements for self-defense still apply (see my older post above, but generally it's a reasonable belief that the degree of force you applied is necessary). Hence, "Stand your ground" isn't a license to play "tough guy" (i.e. if someone pushes me from my space, I can then shoot that person). It only means I'm not legally required to retreat (also [EDIT: *although] you may want to for survivability and other cost/benefit factors).

Last edited by schoy; 07-22-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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      07-22-2013, 08:49 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Looking back at the posts, it looks like the thread somehow morphed at this point into a conversation about "stand your ground". Some clarity might be warranted: "Stand your ground" only means that one is not required to retreat or run to claim self-defense as a justification for a homicide crime. All of the requirements for self-defense still apply (see my older post above, but generally it's a reasonable belief that the degree of force you applied is necessary). Hence, "Stand your ground" isn't a license to play "tough guy" (i.e. if someone pushes me from my space, I can then shoot that person). It only means I'm not legally required to retreat (also [EDIT: *although] you may want to for survivability and other cost/benefit factors).
Also good to note that US isn't alone in this law.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ed_states.html

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Defenders of the European system argue that imposing a duty to retreat may prevent the attack on the victim’s life, but it permits an attack on his legal rights—the right to be in a public place, the right to move freely, etc.
One of the comments from that article:
Quote:
The reason for Stand Your Ground isn't because you actually always SHOULD stand your ground.

The reason the law was passed was that so many people were being convicted of crimes because a prosecutor/judge/jury though that retreat was theoretically possible in cases where the victim, under the stress of being under mortal attack and actually BEING in the situation, unlike the prosecutor/judge/jury, didn't think retreat was an option.

There were too many cases of good people going to jail because someone who wasn't there at the time though they COULD have SOMEHOW avoided using lethal force to defend themselves.

One case was an armed guard at a student residence in Columbia, SC. My brother lived in the building, and the prosecutor decided to charge the guard who shot an assailant. The guard didn't think he could have retreated safely, the prosecutor did, and the guard went to jail. After SC passed it's law, he was set free.

So, in practice, it's really an indemnification to prevent zealous prosecutors from going after good citizens.
Another response that I agree with:
Quote:
P.S. It's not the legal right of others to who sit in comfort and safety to decide if you had other options, or if you picked the best one; their only right as a juror is to judge whether or not you were legally justified in those actions.
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      07-22-2013, 11:52 PM   #132
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Why is that? Are your nephews prone to starting fist fights with people and then continuing to beat them once on the ground?

The ignorance of non carrying people is astounding. The VAST majority of people who carry a firearm avoid conflict like it's the black plague. Non of us want to shoot people and we certainly don't want to be George Zimmerman.

I love shooting guns at the range, in the woods, at watermelons, bowling pins, steel targets, etc.... But i hope i NEVER have to use one against another human being. You poll other CCW holders and you'll likely get the same answer more than 90% of the time.

Use your brain and get your head out of the TV.
"Why is that?" Because you earlier stated that you find yourself doing the exact same thing if you were in Zimmerman's position.

I take that to mean following around kids who you deem suspicious and initiating a confrontation (which granted is not breaking the law). Walking around in the rain with a hoody and saggy pants does not make someone suspicious. Heck, that could have been me 20years ago. From where I come from a kid walking around like he stepped out of a J. Crew catalogue would actually look more suspicious.

I think it's really sad that an innocent child was killed and all people here can say is that Zimmerman did not break any laws. Which technically MIGHT be true. But it does not mean that he did nothing wrong. Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/politi...ws-168833.html
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