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      07-17-2013, 03:31 PM   #45
JFWM3
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Originally Posted by ///M3THOD View Post
991?
I'm sure the 991 is better.

It is the expectation in Automotive that the new generation always exceeds the outgoing generation. So it might be more appropriate to compare the 991 to the M4 (please don't turn this into an M3 vs. M4 debate!).

My point is:
- the 911S is less responsive when comparing both vehicles in stock form
- 911S is considerably more money in stock form

You can spend less money, get a more responsive & involving car, add whatever personal modifications you would like (I did a bunch, and please don't turn this into a S/C vs. non-s/c debate) and still save a bundle compared to the 911S. In $/performance there is no comparison. Hell, the savings are great enough that you can use that money for a less expensive dedicated track car.


The point is, for years I wanted a Porsche. I am fortunate to be in a postion where I can have one now. But after driving one back to back, I'm just not feeling it anymore.
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      07-18-2013, 02:11 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JFWM3 View Post
You can spend less money, get a more responsive & involving car, add whatever personal modifications you would like (I did a bunch, and please don't turn this into a S/C vs. non-s/c debate) and still save a bundle compared to the 911S. In $/performance there is no comparison. Hell, the savings are great enough that you can use that money for a less expensive dedicated track car.


The point is, for years I wanted a Porsche. I am fortunate to be in a postion where I can have one now. But after driving one back to back, I'm just not feeling it anymore.
i would never call an M3 more responsive & involving than a 911. its a great car and its good value but an M3 is never going to feel like a 911 simply because its a sports sedan and the 911 is a true sports car. all the way down to the engineering philosophy of the cars this is evident.

For instance an M3's engine is certainly capable of pushing the car up past 190mph. yet the car is artificially limited to 167mph. why is that? its simple. BMW chooses to not make the suspension, brakes, tires, wheels, and a myriad of other components to enable the car to perform at its vmax and slow it down. that would make it cost much more. You say the Porsche is more expensive and don't see the value. well name one Porsche that has a speed limiter? A base 911 C2 will go faster than an M3 because it like every 911 was designed to perform at its highest possible limit. the only limitation is nature. air resistance, friction.

I can make a stock M3's brakes fade after 15 minutes on a GP Track. One lap on stock brakes at the ring and the car has to sit 30 minutes for the fluid to cool enough to do another lap. Where as I can take a lowly "underpowered" C2S lap after lap and stock vs. stock the C2S is noticeably faster. the brakes are superb. its confidence inspiring. point the car and shoot.

yes a stock M3 and especially a modified M3 is great fun to drive. I have owned several, driven them, coached in them, and raced in them many years. but to call it more involving? never. more responsive? no way. more fun? depends on the occasion to me. like i said previously. an M3 is so easy to drive fast and its balanced so well and that makes it very fun car. especially when you want to slide a bit. but if you want a challenge and ultimately a faster car, then try a 911 on a track. don't dare think about lifting off the throttle mid corner though.
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      07-18-2013, 02:19 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
i would never call an M3 more responsive & involving than a 911. its a great car and its good value but an M3 is never going to feel like a 911 simply because its a sports sedan and the 911 is a true sports car. all the way down to the engineering philosophy of the cars this is evident.

For instance an M3's engine is certainly capable of pushing the car up past 190mph. yet the car is artificially limited to 167mph. why is that? its simple. BMW chooses to not make the suspension, brakes, tires, wheels, and a myriad of other components to enable the car to perform at its vmax and slow it down. that would make it cost much more. You say the Porsche is more expensive and don't see the value. well name one Porsche that has a speed limiter? A base 911 C2 will go faster than an M3 because it like every 911 was designed to perform at its highest possible limit. the only limitation is nature. air resistance, friction.

I can make a stock M3's brakes fade after 15 minutes on a GP Track. One lap on stock brakes at the ring and the car has to sit 30 minutes for the fluid to cool enough to do another lap. Where as I can take a lowly "underpowered" C2S lap after lap and stock vs. stock the C2S is noticeably faster. the brakes are superb. its confidence inspiring. point the car and shoot.

yes a stock M3 and especially a modified M3 is great fun to drive. I have owned several, driven them, coached in them, and raced in them many years. but to call it more involving? never. more responsive? no way. more fun? depends on the occasion to me. like i said previously. an M3 is so easy to drive fast and its balanced so well and that makes it very fun car. especially when you want to slide a bit. but if you want a challenge and ultimately a faster car, then try a 911 on a track. don't dare think about lifting off the throttle mid corner though.


In bold: This happened to me after 3 laps at the Moto GP track @ Assen , Netherlands a few years ago in my totally stock E90 M3. The frontbrakes were 'on fire' ^%$$##!@

and I had no brakepressure at all. Also the FRONT tyres sufferd heavily after just 2 laps(understeer can you imagine lol, followed of course by oversteer haha, there is only one BMW better at that exercise and I have it now lol )

M3 is a great sporty and powerful car with concessions made but definitely not a true sportscar, it's too heavy, has little torque, bad brakes standard.

I just don't like the 911 engine in the back philosophy, but you can bring me a 997/991 GT3 24/7

Cheers
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      07-18-2013, 08:08 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post


In bold: This happened to me after 3 laps at the Moto GP track @ Assen , Netherlands a few years ago in my totally stock E90 M3. The frontbrakes were 'on fire' ^%$$##!@

and I had no brakepressure at all. Also the FRONT tyres sufferd heavily after just 2 laps(understeer can you imagine lol, followed of course by oversteer haha, there is only one BMW better at that exercise and I have it now lol )

M3 is a great sporty and powerful car with concessions made but definitely not a true sportscar, it's too heavy, has little torque, bad brakes standard.

I just don't like the 911 engine in the back philosophy, but you can bring me a 997/991 GT3 24/7

Cheers
Robin
i can't hear you over the animated gif showing gearbox murder. lol

yes, she is a right heavy girl on hairpin tracks. and i love hairpins! 1M would be sweet if it came in the 5-door model. i'm not a turbo fan, but that car does it right despite still being pretty heavy for a "small" car.
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      07-18-2013, 12:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
i would never call an M3 more responsive & involving than a 911. its a great car and its good value but an M3 is never going to feel like a 911 simply because its a sports sedan and the 911 is a true sports car. all the way down to the engineering philosophy of the cars this is evident.

For instance an M3's engine is certainly capable of pushing the car up past 190mph. yet the car is artificially limited to 167mph. why is that? its simple. BMW chooses to not make the suspension, brakes, tires, wheels, and a myriad of other components to enable the car to perform at its vmax and slow it down. that would make it cost much more. You say the Porsche is more expensive and don't see the value. well name one Porsche that has a speed limiter? A base 911 C2 will go faster than an M3 because it like every 911 was designed to perform at its highest possible limit. the only limitation is nature. air resistance, friction.

I can make a stock M3's brakes fade after 15 minutes on a GP Track. One lap on stock brakes at the ring and the car has to sit 30 minutes for the fluid to cool enough to do another lap. Where as I can take a lowly "underpowered" C2S lap after lap and stock vs. stock the C2S is noticeably faster. the brakes are superb. its confidence inspiring. point the car and shoot.

yes a stock M3 and especially a modified M3 is great fun to drive. I have owned several, driven them, coached in them, and raced in them many years. but to call it more involving? never. more responsive? no way. more fun? depends on the occasion to me. like i said previously. an M3 is so easy to drive fast and its balanced so well and that makes it very fun car. especially when you want to slide a bit. but if you want a challenge and ultimately a faster car, then try a 911 on a track. don't dare think about lifting off the throttle mid corner though.
+1

M3 is a great car but it's no sports car. But and it's a big but, if you don't take your cars to the track then the difference is much smaller. Then you're just buying the 911 for the style and prestige which is not a bad thing IMO.

I need to get off my A$$ and make it out to the track soon.
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      07-18-2013, 12:41 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
i would never call an M3 more responsive & involving than a 911. its a great car and its good value but an M3 is never going to feel like a 911 simply because its a sports sedan and the 911 is a true sports car. all the way down to the engineering philosophy of the cars this is evident.

For instance an M3's engine is certainly capable of pushing the car up past 190mph. yet the car is artificially limited to 167mph. why is that? its simple. BMW chooses to not make the suspension, brakes, tires, wheels, and a myriad of other components to enable the car to perform at its vmax and slow it down. that would make it cost much more. You say the Porsche is more expensive and don't see the value. well name one Porsche that has a speed limiter? A base 911 C2 will go faster than an M3 because it like every 911 was designed to perform at its highest possible limit. the only limitation is nature. air resistance, friction.

I can make a stock M3's brakes fade after 15 minutes on a GP Track. One lap on stock brakes at the ring and the car has to sit 30 minutes for the fluid to cool enough to do another lap. Where as I can take a lowly "underpowered" C2S lap after lap and stock vs. stock the C2S is noticeably faster. the brakes are superb. its confidence inspiring. point the car and shoot.

yes a stock M3 and especially a modified M3 is great fun to drive. I have owned several, driven them, coached in them, and raced in them many years. but to call it more involving? never. more responsive? no way. more fun? depends on the occasion to me. like i said previously. an M3 is so easy to drive fast and its balanced so well and that makes it very fun car. especially when you want to slide a bit. but if you want a challenge and ultimately a faster car, then try a 911 on a track. don't dare think about lifting off the throttle mid corner though.
Good post, agree completely
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      07-18-2013, 01:12 PM   #51
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You can lift mid-corner in a 911 as much as you want as long as you correct first then lift. Correct after the lift and it's too late...
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      07-18-2013, 01:35 PM   #52
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The 911GT3 doesn't count, it's like comparing apples and oranges, and costs a lot more.

I am sure the 911S, which is not bread from pure sports car heritage by the way, is a better track car, and I am sure it is better on the autobahn. But most cars get on the track less than 1% of the time, and we don't have an autobahn in my area. So even if there is dispute on responsiveness and involvement, it is about $/performance.

My numbers may be off a little, but I will put it in a "it's all math" context.

Option 1
'10 Porsche 911s $75,000
Total $75,000


Option 2
'10 BMW M3 $45,000
M3 Mods (brakes, suspension, exhaust etc) $10,000
Dedicated track car (let's say a Skylline, but you pick) $12,000
Vegas weekend (not quite a hangover w/e, but hey) $ 5,000
Resoration Hardware Aviator Wing desk (I like to decorate) $ 2,880
Snuggie (why not) $ 20
Total $75,000

I'll take option 2.
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      07-18-2013, 02:55 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elitex View Post
+1

if you don't take your cars to the track then the difference is much smaller. Then you're just buying the 911 for the style and prestige which is not a bad thing IMO.
This is key point !

On the Street, M3 is 95% a 911

If you go to the track, then the difference is big, as 911 is a sports car

But if you don't track, differencen between M3 and 911 is not big...
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      07-18-2013, 04:15 PM   #54
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Red face

My take is that on the street 911 can DO more but M3 FEELS better doing it.
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      07-18-2013, 04:43 PM   #55
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I'm guessing you didn't test drive the 991 Carrera S? That thing is a dream to drive...
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      07-18-2013, 08:16 PM   #56
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some M3 owners are delusional. Like how honda guys say they can smoke anything on the road. prosche is in a different league....
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      07-18-2013, 08:32 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Brucewonder View Post
some M3 owners are delusional. Like how honda guys say they can smoke anything on the road. prosche is in a different league....
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      07-18-2013, 08:40 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucewonder
some M3 owners are delusional. Like how honda guys say they can smoke anything on the road. prosche is in a different league....
Again I'm not saying the M3 is superior in terms of performance. Just saying for the price, M3 is awfully close, especially on the streets.

Btw, I want to add a used 997. How's that for delusional?
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      07-18-2013, 09:40 PM   #59
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Are you guys all talking about the 991 or the 997? The 991 is definitely a step up from the 997 on track, unless you're taking about a gt3. I find the current 991s to be the equivalent of a 997 gt3 on track from what I have seen. I am fairly new to tracking (only 4 years) but I dive in fully, and rarely have I seen a 997.1 or 2 non gt variant be too much of a car for the m3 and believe they are priced accordingly. The new 991 is such a step up, I think the new gt3 will be giving the almighty GTRs a run for their money. Can't wait to see them out there. Until then, will take my M3 over a 997 for the added utility and family friendly nature (2 kids) but if you we're talking 991 just not that impressed with the non gt 911, 997...
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      07-18-2013, 09:42 PM   #60
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you drove the wrong Porsche, hop in a turbo.
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      07-18-2013, 09:44 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucewonder View Post
some M3 owners are delusional. Like how honda guys say they can smoke anything on the road. prosche is in a different league....


I thought i was the only one who thought this as well.
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      07-18-2013, 10:06 PM   #62
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In the hands of a capable driver, the M3 is a fairly potent weapon and can hold its own vs the 997 generation (although I know which car I'd prefer if I didn't have kids) One early Sunday on one of my car-floggin drives in the backroad twists (where you can drive pretty hard with no one being around), I came upon a 997TT who was doing the same thing and he tried following me for a while and I let him pass and did the same. At no point did we get away from each other, if anything I was able to pull a little on broader sweeping turns once I got the revs up (but he was def quicker out of the tighter turns). After about 20 mins we both stepped out at this small grocery store at the next town and while we both recognized that I was the better driver, but he was like "wow, I think the M3 is pretty much perfect for roads like these...I had such a hard time keeping up with you". Yeah the M3 is no Porsche, let's not kid ourselves, but it's pretty damn good for a sedan
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      07-19-2013, 03:10 AM   #63
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i really hate these two arguments. comes up all the time and is moot.

compare gt3 its not fair.

why not compare it? its a street car. its naturally aspirated. its a pure sports car. i think many people cross shop M3's and GT3's. or its their next car. if you can buy an M3 there is a porsche that matches that budget, but if you want same year car then of course the porsche is going to be way more. its the price to play. value is highly subjective. you don't see value in it. fine. enjoy M3 and your weekend in Vegas. sounds fun to me. i would rather take option 3. buy a 997.1 GT3 for $75k. Its 95% of a MK2 RS for less than new M3 price. drive one and then tell me its not fair to compare. its perfectly able to be daily driven too. the suspension is adaptive and not too firm. i drove it in LA frequently to work and it was fine. its always an occasion too.

track car. i don't drive on track but only 1%

for a spirited drive i think a base C2 997 with a manual transmission is still more engaging than an M3. it has plenty of power to enjoy anywhere. a 991 is faster. way faster than 997. but the funny thing is i don't like that they feel a little less challenging to drive fast.

track is really irrelevant? The M3 would not exist without it. You drive a 420hp sports sedan on public roads? why?? and how much that power do you really use legally? going 0-35mph at stoplight without chirping the tires?

if its about $/performance for street use only then why not a new 320i with M package and manual. i think they would be fun to drive on street and be as engaging as M3 if you are just driving on street only. heck the fuel savings alone would be enough for a return trip to vegas. or on flip side if you want engaging as in shortest time to get up to the legal speed limit then you can get way more $/performance from a good old fashioned muscle car. i love those too. how about an E46 M3? they certainly are better $/performance than an E90 or E92?

anyways, we can argue forever on this. you don't like porsches. don't see the point. enjoy your m3 in good health. its okay if you change your mind though. wouldn't be the fist time. lol

here is my porsche story.

i had E46 M3 street car with over $20K in mods. tracked it extensively. had E36 M3 in BMW CCA club racing. had M Coupe for daily driver. had E30 325iS for track toy. So I was firmly BMW guy. I still am. Still race BMW's. i can't afford a 911 cup yet.

anyways, i went to the ring first time. got a ride in CSL. was in love. i "found" a C2S. asked for coupe. got a drop top. drove that car on the ring. lap after lap. CSL on stock brakes only went one lap before needing cool off. that convertible felt more firmly planted and seemed telepathic with my intention to nail every apex. it was over. returned home. sold every bmw i had and ordered a 997.1 GT3 euro delivery. broke it in on the ring. been grinning ever since. still i returned to bmw. got another M3. new one isn't as fun as E46 was. but the power is fun. it rains a lot in germany. snows too. drifting fun. anyways, the best thing is to not argue which is better. get one of each. just need to find a manual transmission F430 spyder and i'll be pretty damn happy.

btw my winter car is an E36 323i touring with manual transmission, M3 lsd and body parts. you want $$/performance. it cost me 3k for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFWM3 View Post
The 911GT3 doesn't count, it's like comparing apples and oranges, and costs a lot more.

I am sure the 911S, which is not bread from pure sports car heritage by the way, is a better track car, and I am sure it is better on the autobahn. But most cars get on the track less than 1% of the time, and we don't have an autobahn in my area. So even if there is dispute on responsiveness and involvement, it is about $/performance.

My numbers may be off a little, but I will put it in a "it's all math" context.

Option 1
'10 Porsche 911s $75,000
Total $75,000


Option 2
'10 BMW M3 $45,000
M3 Mods (brakes, suspension, exhaust etc) $10,000
Dedicated track car (let's say a Skylline, but you pick) $12,000
Vegas weekend (not quite a hangover w/e, but hey) $ 5,000
Resoration Hardware Aviator Wing desk (I like to decorate) $ 2,880
Snuggie (why not) $ 20
Total $75,000

I'll take option 2.
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      07-19-2013, 10:07 AM   #64
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I do like Porsches, I wanted one for years.

But I appreciate an individual's preference, whether it's a guy that owns a lowrider in California (while I wouldn't own one), or a guy that has a tuned GTR in Japan or a guy that owns a Veyron in France. The common denominator is the love of cars.

But for me, I just wasn't feeling in it the 911S. I just felt there are better options for the money. It might be different with a GT2 or the latest generation design, but that's more money.

Your right, I guess I am just content with my M3.
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      07-19-2013, 10:37 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
I drove a 997S, 4S, and Cayman S before choosing my M3 in 2011. The M3 just felt like the better overall car. I just recently drove a 991S. It is definitely more capable than the M3. That said, it cost $120k and wasn't even as well equipped as my fairly loaded M3, which stickered for $74k. What is impressive, then, is how much the M3 offers what what it costs. You have to spend A LOT more to get just a little better. The M3 really sits in the sweet spot of performance car ownership.
The 911 isn't just a little better. It's in a different ball game let alone league than anything bmw. The 997.2 S was a good amount better than our m3s and the 991 is supercar performance with less hp than out m3s. Not even close.

OP - I couldn't disagree with you more. The 911 is just a better car flat out...and im talking just a 911/S. Maybe not per dollar but that's what happens when you hit certain levels of performance. A 458 Italia isn't 5 times better or faster. Obviously your car isn't stock so going from 600 hp to almost anything else is going to feel slower but you can't tell me that 911 didn't far surpass you car in terms of grip or steering feel which isn't at all close. The 911 is a far more connected car. Also go drive a GT3 and you'll never want to drive anything else again as far as fun and connection and speed go.
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      07-19-2013, 10:40 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
i would never call an M3 more responsive & involving than a 911. its a great car and its good value but an M3 is never going to feel like a 911 simply because its a sports sedan and the 911 is a true sports car. all the way down to the engineering philosophy of the cars this is evident.

For instance an M3's engine is certainly capable of pushing the car up past 190mph. yet the car is artificially limited to 167mph. why is that? its simple. BMW chooses to not make the suspension, brakes, tires, wheels, and a myriad of other components to enable the car to perform at its vmax and slow it down. that would make it cost much more. You say the Porsche is more expensive and don't see the value. well name one Porsche that has a speed limiter? A base 911 C2 will go faster than an M3 because it like every 911 was designed to perform at its highest possible limit. the only limitation is nature. air resistance, friction.

I can make a stock M3's brakes fade after 15 minutes on a GP Track. One lap on stock brakes at the ring and the car has to sit 30 minutes for the fluid to cool enough to do another lap. Where as I can take a lowly "underpowered" C2S lap after lap and stock vs. stock the C2S is noticeably faster. the brakes are superb. its confidence inspiring. point the car and shoot.

yes a stock M3 and especially a modified M3 is great fun to drive. I have owned several, driven them, coached in them, and raced in them many years. but to call it more involving? never. more responsive? no way. more fun? depends on the occasion to me. like i said previously. an M3 is so easy to drive fast and its balanced so well and that makes it very fun car. especially when you want to slide a bit. but if you want a challenge and ultimately a faster car, then try a 911 on a track. don't dare think about lifting off the throttle mid corner though.
+1000000000000

In stock form any porsche blows away our m3s in terms of responsiveness let alone the other myriad of aspects as you so nicely point out. Some people just can't get their own bias out of their way.

There's a reason the 911 is the best race car ever built and why in alms it has spanked bmw for years and years and has more wins than other other manuf by a large margin.
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