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      07-13-2013, 03:05 AM   #111
KG3356MT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladberca
Could be the numbers for E9x Ms lower than E46 Ms due to the fact that 335i models with some not so expensive upgrades are so capable and more friendly as a DD?
That's a great point you raise. I often wonder the same. A FBO n54 with meth will dyno over 400whp. Very common and basic mods.
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      07-13-2013, 04:48 AM   #112
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Quote:
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TLDR

...but I actually didn't read any of your posts in this entire thread.
You didn't miss much.
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      07-13-2013, 11:15 AM   #113
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You can still build it and they will try to find the car you want.
Ahuh, I didn't think this way
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      07-13-2013, 01:28 PM   #114
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You didn't miss much.
...says the DCT guy
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      07-13-2013, 01:29 PM   #115
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      07-13-2013, 01:34 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I would have expected something similar in the UK.
And I would expect 9:1 DCT v 6MT since the middle of 2009 as

a) the huge backlog of unsold launch cars (manuals) had been fire-saled in 4Q2008, 1Q2009
b) DCT became widely available from 4Q08.

I think I am going to have to ask GB, to find out.
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      07-13-2013, 01:52 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
And I would expect 9:1 DCT v 6MT since the middle of 2009 as
a) the huge backlog of unsold launch cars (manuals) had been fire-saled in 4Q2008, 1Q2009
b) DCT became widely available from 4Q08.
I think I am going to have to ask GB, to find out.
Hi Tony...much as it seems improbable to me I think the figures may be correct.
I did a quick look at used cars on Autotrader and there are hardly any MTs for sale after 2009.
I just can't figure why the DCT M3 should be so popular in the UK market where MTs are so entrenched - maybe its some sort of trickle down tech appeal from motorsport?
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      07-13-2013, 03:03 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Hi Tony...much as it seems improbable to me I think the figures may be correct.
I did a quick look at used cars on Autotrader and there are hardly any MTs for sale after 2009.
I just can't figure why the DCT M3 should be so popular in the UK market where MTs are so entrenched - maybe its some sort of trickle down tech appeal from motorsport?
UK is responsible for 201 out of 300 manual RHD LCI M3 Coupes.
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      07-13-2013, 05:51 PM   #119
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Regardless of how 6MT guys feel about DCT and the so called lack of driver interaction from playing with an extra pedal, the DCT will be the sole transmission offered one day. Its only a matter of when, not if.
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      07-14-2013, 12:53 AM   #120
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You didn't miss much.
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      07-14-2013, 05:14 AM   #121
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Actually i was thinking the REAL enthusiasts already bought their M3 by the time LCI rolled around so that's why there were a lot less 6MT sales

SAVE THE STICK!
Truth

Some interesting thoughts from Car and Driver when the DCT was released:

But Is It (DCT) Quicker?

After scouring the test results for some useful conclusion, the answer is “not really.” The M DCT car hit 60 mph in 4.3 seconds, cleared the quarter-mile in 12.7 at 113 mph, and achieved 150 mph in 26 seconds flat. Compare that to the six-speed manual’s numbers of 4.3, 12.8 at 113, and 24.3, respectively. If you zoom in even closer and look at each 10-mph increment, the two cars trade off which is quicker until 120 mph, when the manual starts pulling away.




http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...quicker-page-2
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      07-14-2013, 06:27 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surewin View Post
Truth

Some interesting thoughts from Car and Driver when the DCT was released:

But Is It (DCT) Quicker?

After scouring the test results for some useful conclusion, the answer is “not really.” The M DCT car hit 60 mph in 4.3 seconds, cleared the quarter-mile in 12.7 at 113 mph, and achieved 150 mph in 26 seconds flat. Compare that to the six-speed manual’s numbers of 4.3, 12.8 at 113, and 24.3, respectively. If you zoom in even closer and look at each 10-mph increment, the two cars trade off which is quicker until 120 mph, when the manual starts pulling away.




http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...quicker-page-2

"Performance-wise", the true big advantage of DTC is that you can keep your both hands on the steering wheel when you are speeding... It arrived to me that I didn't have the balls to pass the third on small mountain roads. So maybe you can be a bit faster with DCT if your speed exceeds 115kph in those circumstances.
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      07-14-2013, 08:07 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surewin View Post
Truth

Some interesting thoughts from Car and Driver when the DCT was released:

But Is It (DCT) Quicker?

After scouring the test results for some useful conclusion, the answer is “not really.” The M DCT car hit 60 mph in 4.3 seconds, cleared the quarter-mile in 12.7 at 113 mph, and achieved 150 mph in 26 seconds flat. Compare that to the six-speed manual’s numbers of 4.3, 12.8 at 113, and 24.3, respectively. If you zoom in even closer and look at each 10-mph increment, the two cars trade off which is quicker until 120 mph, when the manual starts pulling away.




http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...quicker-page-2
Not every M3 is created equal. Some are born faster than others. They also have different mileages and wear to components like fuel injectors and tires. And one test is not a big enough sample size to draw a solid conclusion from.

A tenth of a second wouldn't really affect my decision either way. I mean, if the manual was proven to be faster I would still get the automatic.

+1 to keeping both hands on the steering wheel when I'm going fast through a turn.
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      07-14-2013, 08:30 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surewin View Post
Truth

Some interesting thoughts from Car and Driver when the DCT was released:

But Is It (DCT) Quicker?

After scouring the test results for some useful conclusion, the answer is “not really.” The M DCT car hit 60 mph in 4.3 seconds, cleared the quarter-mile in 12.7 at 113 mph, and achieved 150 mph in 26 seconds flat. Compare that to the six-speed manual’s numbers of 4.3, 12.8 at 113, and 24.3, respectively. If you zoom in even closer and look at each 10-mph increment, the two cars trade off which is quicker until 120 mph, when the manual starts pulling away.
The difference is DCT will bang out those quick consistent shifts all day long, lap after lap. The manual driver is still human, and will suffer from shift fatigue over time. In daily driving, it's a wash.

Clutched "automatics" have finally evolved to a point where performance is no longer a material dividing line, and the cost of the transmission is low enough that it's making its way into mainstream cars. These numbers really show that despite a fairly stubborn segment that insists on full manuals, the clutch pedal is on its way out. But the concept of a manual, with a clutch (albeit computerized) and the ability to select gears will continue to stick around.
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      07-14-2013, 09:03 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AshyLarryMP View Post
Not every M3 is created equal. Some are born faster than others. They also have different mileages and wear to components like fuel injectors and tires. And one test is not a big enough sample size to draw a solid conclusion from.

A tenth of a second wouldn't really affect my decision either way. I mean, if the manual was proven to be faster I would still get the automatic.

+1 to keeping both hands on the steering wheel when I'm going fast through a turn.
Agree, 0.1s is insignificant.

Shifting mid corner isn't what they teach in driving school as the car's balance will suffer. Shift mid corner going fast turn, a spin is in the cards.
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      07-14-2013, 09:04 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by alee0729 View Post
The difference is DCT will bang out those quick consistent shifts all day long, lap after lap. The manual driver is still human, and will suffer from shift fatigue over time. In daily driving, it's a wash.

Clutched "automatics" have finally evolved to a point where performance is no longer a material dividing line, and the cost of the transmission is low enough that it's making its way into mainstream cars. These numbers really show that despite a fairly stubborn segment that insists on full manuals, the clutch pedal is on its way out. But the concept of a manual, with a clutch (albeit computerized) and the ability to select gears will continue to stick around.
You forgot add that "DCT has LIMP mode when it needs a break."
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      07-14-2013, 09:07 AM   #127
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You forgot add that "DCT has LIMP mode when it needs a break."
:rofl:

Reading your PCD story right now. Picking up my automatic limp there tomorrow.
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      07-14-2013, 10:03 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post

Shifting mid corner isn't what they teach in driving school as the car's balance will suffer. Shift mid corner going fast turn, a spin is in the cards.
In a manual true...with DCT not.
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      07-14-2013, 03:23 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
In a manual true...with DCT not.
I'll take your bet, Peter!

I have had significant opposite lock moments changing up with DCT on a wet bend!

I almost think the DCT driver is more likely to have this sort of incident because the ease of shifting mid bend actually encourages you to do it.

In S5 the kick on upshifts is definitely sufficient to disturb the back end when trying.

One of the m3cutters wrote off his car because he upshifted whilst going over a small crest in a moderate corner.

might have had full traction control on, I think
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      07-14-2013, 04:11 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
In a manual true...with DCT not.
The reason instructors tell you not to shift mid-corner in driver's school is because instructors don't have death wishes (I've been in the side seat in some fast stuff and no way am I taking somebody I don't have very high confidence in and telling them to try to manage a very complicated piece of car control when most students are barely managing to reach the limit and when they do it's by accident). But really there is nothing wrong with shifting mid-corner in any car if you compensate for it properly, and a WOT shift on a DCT car can be just as disruptive to the driver who just gases and goes with no regard to weight transfer, brief as it is with DCT there's still a change in the power delivery even with the nice linear delivery of the S65. I can't imagine how disruptive it must be on the S63TU cars with that huge lump of torque lurking in the next gear...

Bottom line, you still have to drive the car...unless you leave the nannies on and let it sort it out for you, and nanny intervention seems more obvious in the MT cars to me maybe because the DCT car's computers can manage shift abruptness and torque at the same time so you're less likely to ever notice what you did was a bonehead move. The MT car is totally powerless to control what happens when you operate the clutch and gearshift, all it can do is play with power output and brakes and it has to leave you more control of the throttle to execute the shift, so you're more likely to expose your weaknesses
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      07-14-2013, 04:33 PM   #131
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So RoW, my E90 M3 RHD LCI 6MT is 1 of the 135, makes sense given how few I see for sale.
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      07-14-2013, 04:44 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
I'll take your bet, Peter!
I have had significant opposite lock moments changing up with DCT on a wet bend!
I almost think the DCT driver is more likely to have this sort of incident because the ease of shifting mid bend actually encourages you to do it.
In S5 the kick on upshifts is definitely sufficient to disturb the back end when trying.
One of the m3cutters wrote off his car because he upshifted whilst going over a small crest in a moderate corner...might have had full traction control on, I think
I'm betting the common factor is the incorrect choice of gearbox setting. If you want to shift mid gear WOT in MDM at the edge of grip then you absolutely must be in S2. For this sort of driving I wouldn't dream of using S4 or S5 and even S3 can give a little kick. You can also use a DCT S2 upshift to quell power oversteer in a bend.
My one single gripe with the DCT is that S3 should be S2 upshifts combined with S4 downshifts....my "drive it like you stole it" dry weather setting is S2 and MDM but then you have to H&T the downshifts....fast dry setting is S4 and MDM...wet is S2.
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