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      07-12-2013, 12:16 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
A quick look gives:
84% of cars in the UK are MT
7% of cars in the USA are MT
The UK has such a strong history of buying performance cars with MTs
that it makes the figures for the E92 LCi ROW RHD of 300 MTs against 3716 DCT look mental.
M3's are fairly close by in the US by comparison.

According to my math, which admittedly could be wrong!

Pre-LCI & LCI - all body types

6MT - 11,325 ~44%
DCT - 14,347 ~56%

Total US/Can = 25,672

Last edited by ///M3THOD; 07-12-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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      07-12-2013, 12:49 PM   #90
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At least in Europe DCT option came some years later than the introduction of the M3.... so that's the reason why (preLCI) first sales have a lot more manuals.

Thank you
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      07-12-2013, 01:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by emulajavi View Post
At least in Europe DCT option came some years later than the introduction of the M3.... so that's the reason why (preLCI) first sales have a lot more manuals.

Thank you
I think you mean some months later.
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      07-12-2013, 01:49 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M3THOD View Post
M3's are fairly close by in the US by comparison.

Pre-LCI & LCI - all body types

6MT - 11,325 ~44%
DCT - 14,347 ~56%
I would have expected something similar in the UK.
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      07-12-2013, 02:08 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickFinga
Now that the E90 and E92 M3 have stopped production, and since a lot of people were asking for the DCT/6spd breakdown, so here it is.

E93 LCI M3 is still in production, so no data yet. Looking at the data, 6spd in the M3/M4 will be dead or US/Canada only option soon.


Attachment 886691
Why would manual die ? Look at all those numbers,

No way will it die in the m3/m4
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      07-12-2013, 02:20 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Jesal@IND View Post
2008 E90 M3 was released at a terrible time when the economy tanked. BMW made many 2008 models that just sat on lots and amazing deals were to be had.

For 2009+ E90 LCI models, BMW cut production back drastically.
That's how I got my car. March '08 build, arrived at dealer in September of '08, sat there for 18 months until I bought it in April of 2010 with 280 miles on it, 10 of which were my test drive. They got this car allotted to them along with half a dozen loaded or nearly loaded cars over that 18 month period, and in keeping with the times the haves had to have, so the ones who just wanted all the options on the latest and greatest M car snapped up the loaded-up cars within a few weeks of arrival but my car with only a couple of options sat there waiting for someone who appreciated less idrive and more headroom...
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      07-12-2013, 02:26 PM   #95
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Intersting figures. Thanks for posting.

I think it's difficult to make sweeping generalizations about buyer preference, particularly by country. There are so many reasons why people go DCT or Manual.

One of my partners at work will only order stripped down cars that have only a manual. He's from Geneva and has only ordered manual cars. Another friend of mine ordered his E93 so he could cheap it out and only get nav. He isn't what I'd call an enthusiast but he enjoys a manual and really didn't want to add $2900 to the cost of his lease..

I have never owned a manual car and now as tech got better, I find it less compelling to go backwards in development to a transmission I'm no better than average at operating. So DCT wins for me every time.

If and only if I ended up buying a weekend car that was older, would I only consider a manual transmission. Cars I'd consider for purchase down the road as a fun car would be a 993 S wide body or 993 turbo or hell, I'd even pick up an E36 M3 project car if I found a clean example because it was my dream car as a teen.

These cars had horrendous slow auto boxes so the manual is the only way to go.
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      07-12-2013, 02:59 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
I have never owned a manual car and now as tech got better, I find it less compelling to go backwards in development to a transmission I'm no better than average at operating. So DCT wins for me every time.
Interesting issue you raise, most people who know how to drive a manual still aren't very good at operating a manual transmission for purposes of extracting maximum performance from a car. How many threads are there all over the web of people running 1/4 mile times 1 second+ off the best time for the car in otherwise ideal conditions? There are of course some people who would choose DCT regardless of their skill with a manual, but generally I think that's true, and the DCT (and SMG before it) makes the M3's huge performance envelope much more accessible. The extra gear and faster shifts are a nice bonus which more than offset the ~45lb weight penalty in most situations, but not the primary reason most people choose it IMO.

If you really press them on it, (and I've asked a few) they'll tell you it allows them to focus on executing one less thing behind the wheel, which makes them feel faster and more in control, not less (contrary to the "MT allows more control" argument which is objectively true but that's theory and we live in reality) when driving quickly

Both great options, I chose the one I wanted but if the M3 was DCT only I'd be sad but it'd still be a great automobile

Now, why anyone would choose an E92 when the E90 was available I have no idea (kidding...)
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      07-12-2013, 04:00 PM   #97
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So I wonder how many E92 x drive 6MT cars were produced? 2012?
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      07-12-2013, 04:11 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Interesting issue you raise, most people who know how to drive a manual still aren't very good at operating a manual transmission for purposes of extracting maximum performance from a car. How many threads are there all over the web of people running 1/4 mile times 1 second+ off the best time for the car in otherwise ideal conditions? There are of course some people who would choose DCT regardless of their skill with a manual, but generally I think that's true, and the DCT (and SMG before it) makes the M3's huge performance envelope much more accessible. The extra gear and faster shifts are a nice bonus which more than offset the ~45lb weight penalty in most situations, but not the primary reason most people choose it IMO.

If you really press them on it, (and I've asked a few) they'll tell you it allows them to focus on executing one less thing behind the wheel, which makes them feel faster and more in control, not less (contrary to the "MT allows more control" argument which is objectively true but that's theory and we live in reality) when driving quickly

Both great options, I chose the one I wanted but if the M3 was DCT only I'd be sad but it'd still be a great automobile

Now, why anyone would choose an E92 when the E90 was available I have no idea (kidding...)
OK, first, to answer your question...because E92's rool and E90's drool! Surprised you didn't know that.

And as to the rest of your post. I've driven MT's my entire driving life, and BMW MT's for 12 years before I got my present car. Would never even consider an automagic. Not saying I was an ace, but I have tracked my cars for years and was proficient. First time I ever drove the DCT was at the Performance Center in SC, when the best BMW salesman I've ever seen set me up to test the M3 when i told him I was considering it. And I was miserable at it, because my right hand kept reaching for the gearshift and my left foot almost punched through the floorboard. But after the instructor duct taped my right hand to the wheel, I was flat sold on it. Given the choice, I'd go DCT every time.

I see and respect what you're saying about the satisfaction derived from wringing out a car using more coordination and effort. But as for me...I ain't goin' back.
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      07-12-2013, 04:22 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
Totally agree.

My 08 e92 m3 was a 6 speed cause I loved 6 speeds and had driven a DSG M5 and E46 and hated it.

Later I tried the DCT and felt the car was MADE for DCT more than 6MT and now own a DCT.
Waited for an 08 DCT E92 to be available even though I was driving MT for 25+ years. Got myself the 2013 E92 again but it took me 6 months to decide on what type of trans to get. Took delivery of another DCT E92M3. Resistance to the Borg is futile.
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      07-12-2013, 05:33 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
If you really press them on it, (and I've asked a few) they'll tell you it allows them to focus on executing one less thing behind the wheel, which makes them feel faster and more in control, not less (contrary to the "MT allows more control" argument which is objectively true but that's theory and we live in reality) when driving quickly

Agreed. An awful lot of people like to put on the ruse that by driving a manual transmission they are able to "control" the car better. I agree that you do have the final say in what your car does when you're in a manual but facing the probable fact, a lot of manual drivers cannot operate a manual transmission to an expert level where the driver input is spot on all the time.

As long as what I input is not close to perfect and this remains my only car I daily drive, I'll choose a transmission that is idiot proof so I can concentrate more on either the coffee in my hand (damn you cupholders) or other aspects of spirited driving that I'm again, not a professional at.

That being said, I will gladly give up being able to tell my car its my way or the highway with regards to how I operate it for a transmission that will 98% of the time act exactly as I wish for it to operate.

I do enjoy the heck out of driving a manual the infrequent occasions I get to drive one. Just being more involved in the driving process is fun when it's simply for that - fun.
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      07-12-2013, 06:08 PM   #101
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The DCT lag problems thread was one of the biggest and most permanent thread on the forum for years. Another probably more significant weakness of the DCT is the direct consequence of giving up the control of clutch level of engagement to a computer in stop-and-go situations. This of course lead to the inability to fully control the level of agressiveness/response in stop-and-go daily driving situations. That limitation is shared with fully automatic transmissions. No uncertainties there with the MT.
Of course during spirited driving on the track the DCT shifts are machine fast but also suppress one dimension of driving involving the tactile joy of pulling and pushing gears in and out . There now is an aftermarket software available to tune the DCT behavior slightly differently. Anyone who knows basic algebra knows that if you start with two independent variables and you reduce that to only one then you have given up one degree of control. It does not matter how faster or more precise than you that computer is, the fact is you are now controlling only 1 dimension instead of 2 dimensions. No matter how you look at it, it is a loss of 1 dimension of control. Sure, you can program different curves for the lost variable that suit different driving style/situations but you are one degree closer to being on a parc attraction ride where you just sit and do nothing. Of course this has already started with self-driving cars.
Hahaha. Yup. That was my thread with ~1800posts and 190,000 views. People still are posting to it now. I got fed up and sold the M3 and got a X5!
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      07-12-2013, 06:41 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by sunsweet View Post
The DCT lag problems thread was one of the biggest and most permanent thread on the forum for years. Another probably more significant weakness of the DCT is the direct consequence of giving up the control of clutch level of engagement to a computer in stop-and-go situations. This of course lead to the inability to fully control the level of agressiveness/response in stop-and-go daily driving situations. That limitation is shared with fully automatic transmissions. No uncertainties there with the MT.
Of course during spirited driving on the track the DCT shifts are machine fast but also suppress one dimension of driving involving the tactile joy of pulling and pushing gears in and out . There now is an aftermarket software available to tune the DCT behavior slightly differently. Anyone who knows basic algebra knows that if you start with two independent variables and you reduce that to only one then you have given up one degree of control. It does not matter how faster or more precise than you that computer is, the fact is you are now controlling only 1 dimension instead of 2 dimensions. No matter how you look at it, it is a loss of 1 dimension of control. Sure, you can program different curves for the lost variable that suit different driving style/situations but you are one degree closer to being on a parc attraction ride where you just sit and do nothing. Of course this has already started with self-driving cars.
Good points.
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      07-12-2013, 08:59 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Agreed. An awful lot of people like to put on the ruse that by driving a manual transmission they are able to "control" the car better. I agree that you do have the final say in what your car does when you're in a manual but facing the probable fact, a lot of manual drivers cannot operate a manual transmission to an expert level where the driver input is spot on all the time.

As long as what I input is not close to perfect and this remains my only car I daily drive, I'll choose a transmission that is idiot proof so I can concentrate more on either the coffee in my hand (damn you cupholders) or other aspects of spirited driving that I'm again, not a professional at.

That being said, I will gladly give up being able to tell my car its my way or the highway with regards to how I operate it for a transmission that will 98% of the time act exactly as I wish for it to operate.

I do enjoy the heck out of driving a manual the infrequent occasions I get to drive one. Just being more involved in the driving process is fun when it's simply for that - fun.

My statements about DCT are all physically observable realities. You are trying to falsify reality with a mix-up of semantics, twisting the word "control" outside of its true meaning. This isn't a rhetorical exercise. No need to talk about "objectivity" and "subjectivity" when describing how many physically independent degrees of control exist between the transmission and the driver. There are: MT = 2 degrees, DCT = 1 degree. It is what it is - not debatable -. This is not going to change by how you feel about it.

Now let's step to something else that you are souping things up with: "sense of speed" and "having more brain time to focus on other aspects of driving the car". You will not be able to make them pass as "control" when they have strictly nothing to do with it . I am not disagreeing that you are having driving sensations since THESE are purely subjective to each driver. But just think for a second about about how sitting on the passenger front seat in the nurburgring M3 taxi would feel incredibly faster because you have zero control of the car as a passenger. In fact the more you are in control the less fast your driving experience will feel (and the safer if you are the driver!). Ok so DCT lets you better enjoy the cup holders and enjoying beverages while driving (and what else), hey that's great. No kidding. I believe this has not been a small factor when choosing DCT in a country where the drivein was invented.

Now about the whole misconception that driving a manual is so difficult that "idiot drivers" (i am quoting your words) could not master it sufficiently to extract every bit of performance out of the M3. That is nonsense. You don't need to drive the car to 99.9% of its capacity to enjoy it (nearly all M3 owners will never be able to drive it to the edge anyway with Manual or DCT). The shifting speed superiority of the DCT is not going to make any significant difference to almost all M3 drivers. but I concede the point about he cup holder enjoyment Not that you could also get that from a true automatic.

I want to quote one of my fellow MT driver. He said it much better but it was something along these words: I want the freedom of occasionally missing some of my shifts and hear the engine growl in discontent because that is part of the fun too.

My ideal transmission does not exist yet. It would be a manual with clutch pedal that can also be bypassed with DCT. But please no DCT for 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear.

Last edited by sunsweet; 07-12-2013 at 09:09 PM.
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      07-12-2013, 09:04 PM   #104
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Are we going to get an answer from the OP on the source of this data?
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      07-12-2013, 09:07 PM   #105
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Anyone know of a source as to sales by color?
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      07-12-2013, 10:45 PM   #106
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Anyone know of a source as to sales by color?
My post (now a stickie in this general forum) has the stats I've found from other posts here, mostly data from SickFinga. That has all the production data for E90/2/3 and numbers by color but only for E90s. Hopefully we can get the same for the E92.
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      07-12-2013, 10:45 PM   #107
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Are we going to get an answer from the OP on the source of this data?
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...5#post14306845
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      07-13-2013, 02:37 AM   #108
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This data is even more impressive in regards to the DCT when you factor in that it is a 2,900 dollar option. The DCT will spank the manual in sales with the F80 M3 even more because this time there will be no head start for the manual. As someone above said, resistance to the Borg is futile. IMHO, the DCT was the second best thing about the E9X M3 behind the S65.
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      07-13-2013, 02:42 AM   #109
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Could be the numbers for E9x Ms lower than E46 Ms due to the fact that 335i models with some not so expensive upgrades are so capable and more friendly as a DD?
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      07-13-2013, 03:01 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsweet View Post
My statements about DCT are all physically observable realities. You are trying to falsify reality with a mix-up of semantics, twisting the word "control" outside of its true meaning. This isn't a rhetorical exercise. No need to talk about "objectivity" and "subjectivity" when describing how many physically independent degrees of control exist between the transmission and the driver. There are: MT = 2 degrees, DCT = 1 degree. It is what it is - not debatable -. This is not going to change by how you feel about it.

Now let's step to something else that you are souping things up with: "sense of speed" and "having more brain time to focus on other aspects of driving the car". You will not be able to make them pass as "control" when they have strictly nothing to do with it . I am not disagreeing that you are having driving sensations since THESE are purely subjective to each driver. But just think for a second about about how sitting on the passenger front seat in the nurburgring M3 taxi would feel incredibly faster because you have zero control of the car as a passenger. In fact the more you are in control the less fast your driving experience will feel (and the safer if you are the driver!). Ok so DCT lets you better enjoy the cup holders and enjoying beverages while driving (and what else), hey that's great. No kidding. I believe this has not been a small factor when choosing DCT in a country where the drivein was invented.

Now about the whole misconception that driving a manual is so difficult that "idiot drivers" (i am quoting your words) could not master it sufficiently to extract every bit of performance out of the M3. That is nonsense. You don't need to drive the car to 99.9% of its capacity to enjoy it (nearly all M3 owners will never be able to drive it to the edge anyway with Manual or DCT). The shifting speed superiority of the DCT is not going to make any significant difference to almost all M3 drivers. but I concede the point about he cup holder enjoyment Not that you could also get that from a true automatic.

I want to quote one of my fellow MT driver. He said it much better but it was something along these words: I want the freedom of occasionally missing some of my shifts and hear the engine growl in discontent because that is part of the fun too.

My ideal transmission does not exist yet. It would be a manual with clutch pedal that can also be bypassed with DCT. But please no DCT for 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear.
TLDR

...but I actually didn't read any of your posts in this entire thread. If you think anything I wrote was in response to anything you wrote up above, it wasn't. Any link was a pure coincidence.
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