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      03-02-2013, 08:29 PM   #45
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I saw a Black Tesla S in Manhattan for the first time in person last week. I was surprised how attractive it looked. Tesla is a big step forward for the image of fully electric powered cars. May be wifey's next.
M5 drag race below
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      03-03-2013, 06:56 PM   #46
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I drove one for quite some miles. Very impressive car. I posted a Youtube video of acceleration with 3 full size adults in the car.



Road And Track got 4.1 seconds 0-60mph

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...-tesla-model-s

Just as the article says, the car is a breeze to accelerate with controllable/massive torque from 0 rpm. Virtually no tires spin ever. Just quiet, quick, plant you in the seat acceleration.

Drag times has the time slip of the Tesla running low 12's. And 0-60mph in 3.9 seconds.

http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-...m_medium=email

So pretty quick for a 4700lb car with with a motor the size of a small office trash can.
Look how small the motor is: http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/wp-con...el-s-motor.jpg
The center of gravity is under 17"high on this car. It corners at .91g.

Soon as battery technology evolves, can you imagine putting another of these 400+ hp motors in the front ALSO? How about 832 HP, with a motor that can be selected to turn on any time from totally cold to full acceleration, efficiently (unlike a internal combustion engine)

So think of this, although a petrol car can generate these numbers with lots of revving, launch control, etc, many of them won't even catch the Tesla till you are going 100mph. Yet the Tesla will accelerate like this effortlessly from an intersection without even making any noise. You can pin your passengers in the seat without making the obvious effort of winding a petrol engine towards redline. So at speeds below 100mph, which is where most of us drive 99% of the time, this powerband is very useful. It just happens instantly without notice in the Tesla S. That is a very fun thing to surprise your passengers like that!

So in the future, can you imagine a car with 832HP, and still capable of cruising along at 70-80mpge? It will totally be possible, and probably doable right now for a couple hundred thousand. And I really believe with over 800hp, people would be in line to buy a car like that at those prices. But again...soon as battery technology evolves, electric propulsion will be the wave of the future.
I still can't get over that little motor propelling over 5000lbs in test weight that quickly......
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      03-03-2013, 07:12 PM   #47
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I drove one for quite some miles. Very impressive car. I posted a Youtube video of acceleration with 3 full size adults in the car.

Holy microchips, Batman! It sounds like a hard drive spooling up!

Cool clip.
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      03-03-2013, 08:08 PM   #48
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Holy microchips, Batman! It sounds like a hard drive spooling up!

Cool clip.
Look at the motor power topping out at 320000 watts. If you could run that power on 12volts it would be over 26000 amps!
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      07-03-2013, 02:38 PM   #49
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They are extremely bad for the environment! Every Li Ion or Li-poly batteries (Ni Mh as well) are made with huge toxic waste and pollution. Just the Li mining process involves several steps of acid extractions which waste goes where?? Some of these step are allowed only in china on an industrial scale.
Please, DO NOT by any hybrid vehicle if you care for your environment!!
CO2 is not nearly as disastrous than the toxic waste associated with battery making!
Can you provide a link / source for this please?
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      07-03-2013, 08:41 PM   #50
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Played around with one a couple of weeks ago. IMHO, I didn't think it looked THAT great, I don't know, maybe I'm in the minority. There were definitely areas where the quality was just not there, mostly the interior. For a car costing $100k, it was definitely something I didn't expect.

Overall, I'd see why people would buy this Tesla, but it's just not for me at all.
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      07-03-2013, 09:04 PM   #51
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When I see electric outlets at the gas stations then I would give the Tesla some serious consideration. Right now, I'm not sold on it yet. But hey at least we are moving in the right direction.
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      07-03-2013, 10:10 PM   #52
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If you haven't driven or ridden in one of these you really need to check it out before drawing comparisons.

It has 100% torque available always and only one gear. It drives like the starship enterprise. Trust me this is not a Nissan leaf or Chevy volt.

Although it cannot be a track car due to heat issues at prolonged maximum performance, it is beastly nonetheless.

Don't be surprised if this thing outperforms many sports cars included the beloved m5.
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      07-03-2013, 10:15 PM   #53
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Quote:
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They are extremely bad for the environment! Every Li Ion or Li-poly batteries (Ni Mh as well) are made with huge toxic waste and pollution. Just the Li mining process involves several steps of acid extractions which waste goes where?? Some of these step are allowed only in china on an industrial scale.
Please, DO NOT by any hybrid vehicle if you care for your environment!!
CO2 is not nearly as disastrous than the toxic waste associated with battery making!
100% agree. If you're a real tree hugger, you would care about the lifecylce environment cost. If you're a pretender (or a businessman), you focus on one narrow thing like CO2 emissions.

I have an m3 and a Prius so I guess I'm not a true tree hugger
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      07-03-2013, 10:24 PM   #54
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I might have to buy this stock soon.
I already did.
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      07-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #55
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I've seen a few around Woodbury Commons area. They look nice. Just wonder how they drive.
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      07-04-2013, 08:31 PM   #56
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Electric meh !!
What's the big deal ?
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      07-05-2013, 03:56 PM   #57
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When I see electric outlets at the gas stations then I would give the Tesla some serious consideration. Right now, I'm not sold on it yet. But hey at least we are moving in the right direction.

how long do you plan on sitting at the station to charge you car??

Electric cars a still a LONG ways away from being prevalent.

W/ todays' tech, there's nothing wrong with the gasoline engine; hell they barely pollute anymore (i.e. Honda ULEV). Battery cars are not the answer. Btw how many volts do you see driving around?
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      07-05-2013, 04:44 PM   #58
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Quote:
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100% agree. If you're a real tree hugger, you would care about the lifecylce environment cost. If you're a pretender (or a businessman), you focus on one narrow thing like CO2 emissions.

I have an m3 and a Prius so I guess I'm not a true tree hugger
Only some people that buy a Tesla do it because of its "green" credentials. A lot of people do it just because it's a hell of a car. That being said, I'm genuinely curious about lifecycle studies. Do you have any links?

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how long do you plan on sitting at the station to charge you car??

Electric cars a still a LONG ways away from being prevalent.

W/ todays' tech, there's nothing wrong with the gasoline engine; hell they barely pollute anymore (i.e. Honda ULEV). Battery cars are not the answer. Btw how many volts do you see driving around?
20-30 minutes? Use a Tesla Supercharger to get from 50% charge to 100% charge. Perfect rest stop in a road trip. If you're in a hurry, use battery swap in 90 seconds.

Yes, electric cars are still not prevalent, in the same way that gas powered cars weren't prevalent until the Model T. Time will solve that issue.

I wonder where you get your information about the gasoline engine not polluting. Where do you live? I'm in Los Angeles and just looking at the sky proves otherwise.

And I actually see quite a few volts driving around...

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Electric meh !!
What's the big deal ?
Test drive a Model S, then come back here and we'll talk.


Yes I own an M3.
Yes it's my only car.
Yes I have test driven a Model S.
No I'm not buying a Model S.
Why? It's too expensive and too big for me.
Hopefully the next generation vehicle is gonna be in my price range.
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      07-05-2013, 04:53 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Only some people that buy a Tesla do it because of its "green" credentials. A lot of people do it just because it's a hell of a car. That being said, I'm genuinely curious about lifecycle studies. Do you have any links?



20-30 minutes? Use a Tesla Supercharger to get from 50% charge to 100% charge. Perfect rest stop in a road trip. If you're in a hurry, use battery swap in 90 seconds.

Yes, electric cars are still not prevalent, in the same way that gas powered cars weren't prevalent until the Model T. Time will solve that issue.

I wonder where you get your information about the gasoline engine not polluting. Where do you live? I'm in Los Angeles and just looking at the sky proves otherwise.

And I actually see quite a few volts driving around...



Test drive a Model S, then come back here and we'll talk.


Yes I own an M3.
Yes it's my only car.
Yes I have test driven a Model S.
No I'm not buying a Model S.
Why? It's too expensive and too big for me.
Hopefully the next generation vehicle is gonna be in my price range.


the real polluters are the diesel rigs that are used at 500k miles a year for commerce delivery.

I used to do work in Auto industry and did some research on the pros/cons versus electric. Go find a Prius owner that will have to change the batteries soon and get their opinion. The Otto cycle (conventional) gas engine is def the least efficieny of other gas engine designs; however, nowadays auto companies have cut down emissions to almost nothing. Again see Honda. I also lived in LA at some time and yes your smog is terrible, but now, in 2013, there's much worse out there than the polluting of a 2000 and up Honda Civic. We need reform in the major transportation fields (planes/trains/large diesel rigs). Cars still pollute, but the impact is less than you may think. This administration and media has driven the hype of the electric car, but until we better the tech. of lithium ion batteries, its a lost cause.

Shit, my iphone can't last a full day!!!!

Consider the following:

I live in FL; we don't really have traffic, but we commute much further distances due to everyting being far away. I also drive for work. How far am I going to get each day while also having to stop at 30 min intervals to chrage a car. Very counterproductive if you ask me. I Could go on for days, but don't like typing so I'll stop here.

Oh yeah, electric cars are silent.. think about that one. No more engine noise/muffler swaps, etc. Sucks.
Sure they're fast as electric motors are instant torque, so it's like a golf cart, instant speed but will drop off fast.

The future should be in small displacement turbo and supercharged motors. Even compounding turbocharging and super turbocharging together (see Jag concept).
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      07-05-2013, 05:23 PM   #60
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the real polluters are the diesel rigs that are used at 500k miles a year for commerce delivery.

I used to do work in Auto industry and did some research on the pros/cons versus electric. Go find a Prius owner that will have to change the batteries soon and get their opinion. The Otto cycle (conventional) gas engine is def the least efficieny of other gas engine designs; however, nowadays auto companies have cut down emissions to almost nothing. Again see Honda. I also lived in LA at some time and yes your smog is terrible, but now, in 2013, there's much worse out there than the polluting of a 2000 and up Honda Civic. We need reform in the major transportation fields (planes/trains/large diesel rigs). Cars still pollute, but the impact is less than you may think. This administration and media has driven the hype of the electric car, but until we better the tech. of lithium ion batteries, its a lost cause.

Shit, my iphone can't last a full day!!!!

Consider the following:

I live in FL; we don't really have traffic, but we commute much further distances due to everyting being far away. I also drive for work. How far am I going to get each day while also having to stop at 30 min intervals to chrage a car. Very counterproductive if you ask me. I Could go on for days, but don't like typing so I'll stop here.

Oh yeah, electric cars are silent.. think about that one. No more engine noise/muffler swaps, etc. Sucks.
Sure they're fast as electric motors are instant torque, so it's like a golf cart, instant speed but will drop off fast.

The future should be in small displacement turbo and supercharged motors. Even compounding turbocharging and super turbocharging together (see Jag concept).
Agree with the trucks being big culprits, since they're not controlled as much as passenger vehicles.

COMBINED, they are the cause of 21.6% of the US emissions:
http://www.wri.org/image/view/9528/_original

The pros of this is it's something we can change immediately by just changing what we drive. That being said, I will shop for a car that fits my budget AND needs, so electric is not yet for me.

BUT if enough people switch and there's enough demand, the tech will continue evolving until it's commercially viable to adopt electric vehicles for freight. You say we need better battery tech. I agree with you on this. But it's only through demand for more electric vehicles that companies will invest in R&D. I see it as a chicken and egg thing.

Also about emissions: I dare you to connect the exhaust of your vehicle to a mask and put that mask on... see how long you last. THAT is the stuff we breathe.

I don't see how your phone relates to this discussion...

Btw, how long is your daily commute? Model S has an EPA range of 265 miles. My M3 goes 275 miles on a tank of gas...

About electric being silent... yeah, the exhaust tone is gone. This is not bad, just different. Test drive one, you'll see.
When the exhaust is gone you hear other sounds, like the wind rushing by, the tires rolling. I love the exhaust tone of my M3 but would definitely not mind hearing those other things.
Imagine how much quieter cities would be!

Electric motors have instant torque indeed! This is one of the best features. No gas car I have ever driven compares in this matter. For the US this is ideal since we don't go over 100.

Hopefully my next car will be electric.

EDIT: Addressing the Prius battery issue, I can't comment on that particular battery since I'm not familiar with it, but Telsa Roadster owners report around 2.9% drain/year
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/for...-2008-roadster
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      07-05-2013, 05:43 PM   #61
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Agree with the trucks being big culprits, since they're not controlled as much as passenger vehicles.

COMBINED, they are the cause of 21.6% of the US emissions:
http://www.wri.org/image/view/9528/_original

The pros of this is it's something we can change immediately by just changing what we drive. That being said, I will shop for a car that fits my budget AND needs, so electric is not yet for me.

BUT if enough people switch and there's enough demand, the tech will continue evolving until it's commercially viable to adopt electric vehicles for freight. You say we need better battery tech. I agree with you on this. But it's only through demand for more electric vehicles that companies will invest in R&D. I see it as a chicken and egg thing.

Also about emissions: I dare you to connect the exhaust of your vehicle to a mask and put that mask on... see how long you last. THAT is the stuff we breathe.

I don't see how your phone relates to this discussion...

Btw, how long is your daily commute? Model S has an EPA range of 265 miles. My M3 goes 275 miles on a tank of gas...

About electric being silent... yeah, the exhaust tone is gone. This is not bad, just different. Test drive one, you'll see.
When the exhaust is gone you hear other sounds, like the wind rushing by, the tires rolling. I love the exhaust tone of my M3 but would definitely not mind hearing those other things.
Imagine how much quieter cities would be!

Electric motors have instant torque indeed! This is one of the best features. No gas car I have ever driven compares in this matter. For the US this is ideal since we don't go over 100.

Hopefully my next car will be electric.

EDIT: Addressing the Prius battery issue, I can't comment on that particular battery since I'm not familiar with it, but Telsa Roadster owners report around 2.9% drain/year
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/for...-2008-roadster


I'm sorry but can confidently say you are not a guy car if you think an electric car may suit you one day.

P.S. I could drive 2-300 miles in a half day, then what. Electric cars are still way out there and not the answer. What do we do w/ all the used batteries. Know how much a battery cost? This is also an extremely high voltage system. Additionally, the initial cost is never realll realized in most cases.
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      07-05-2013, 06:29 PM   #62
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Quote:
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I'm sorry but can confidently say you are not a guy car if you think an electric car may suit you one day.

P.S. I could drive 2-300 miles in a half day, then what. Electric cars are still way out there and not the answer. What do we do w/ all the used batteries. Know how much a battery cost? This is also an extremely high voltage system. Additionally, the initial cost is never realll realized in most cases.
Ok, I'm not a guy car.
But maybe I'm a car guy?

So at the end of the day, for you, a car has to have a gas engine? Otherwise it's not a car? Talk about being narrow minded.

So due to the lack of intelligent responses to my answers, you proceed to attack me by saying that somehow my knowledge/love for vehicles is not up to par. Really grown up...

What do you mean electrics are "way out there"? Just because you say something is not the answer, does not mean it's not... you have to back your claims with a "because....".

What do we do with all used batteries? WHEN they deplete, around ~500 thousand miles (when is the last time you saw a gas vehicle with that amount of miles), then we recycle them!
EDIT: Source for 5000 cycles @ less than 1/2 range (100 miles) = 500000 miles, meaning ~18% range decrease AT that time: http://mtrl1.me.psu.edu/Document/ZhangY_JES_2009.pdf

"RECYCLING

At the end its usable life, the cells and pack could, by law, be disposed in a landfill. The pack contains neither heavy metals nor toxic materials. While the components could be thrown away, Tesla has implemented a recycling strategy which reuses or recycles over 60% of the battery. Once pack production volumes increase, further recycling steps become profitable and the recycling percentage increases to 90%. The components recovered in the recycling process are valuable which creates a financial incentive for recycling."

Source: http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology/battery

Regarding range: How long is your commute? You never answered this.
IF your commute is longer than 265 miles, then yes, gas is probably your better choice IF you want to drive for more than ~3.5 hs without stopping. And/or you live in the middle of nowhere, where there won't be any supercharging/battery swap stations.
As these roll out, you can either:
1-rest for 30 minutes and get 1/2 of your range back or
2-swap your battery in 90 seconds

Oh, (1) is free, by the way.

For commutes that are around 1/2 of the range (~130 miles), you'd be saving a ton of money AND not polluting as much. You'd only need a fast charger at home OR at work (not a Supercharger, just a regular fast charger).

Battery costs are expensive... so is a car engine. Point being?

Yes it's high voltage... and you're driving on top of a combustible liquid that's explosive in a gas car... point being?

What do you mean about initial cost? Cost of the car? Yes, this is one of the 2 reasons I don't have a Model S.
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      07-08-2013, 10:13 AM   #63
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I'm a big Tesla fan and this is my dispassionate opinion as objective as it can be as a fan, anyway

Model S is an amazing car, and I want one. In the real world of cut and thrust 0-70mph traffic, it's a devastatingly quick car, and immensely practical in terms of people carrying and cargo capacity for its size. The "green" aspect of it is really a sideshow IMO, compared to those great attributes, and is only interesting to me because it made the rest possible thanks to the packaging advantages of an electric drivetrain. Setting aside life cycle, on balance it's not much better than driving a 740i in terms of CO2e emissions, especially if you live on a coal fired power grid. But a 740i takes ~6 seconds to get to 60.

It's nowhere near the world beating performance machine it's held out to be by Tesla. It can do amazing things a few times but heat soaks quickly and drains the battery almost as quickly at top performance. It can generate great grip thank to a low CG and adaptive air suspension but doesn't transition well due to relatively narrow front tires and huge weight. It falls on its face past about 90mph compared to anything with a decent amount of power, look at how long it takes to get from 80 to 100mph. M3 takes 3 seconds to get from 80 to 100 mph, Model S takes 4.6, and it's a full 5 seconds slower from 100mph to 120mph. At those speeds I can spot the Model S a full second to downshift (it doesn't take that long) and still pass it before I even need 4th gear in an M3. A 335 is similarly much quicker at higher speeds. So this whole "faster than an M5" schtick is complete BS on close inspection. Tesla was notably silent on the laptime when it took its cars to COTA for a press day. But that's the racetrack, and we live in reality...

I'm really interested to see if they adapt Model X's powertrain to Model S to allow an AWD option. If they tuned it right that'd be a 3.5 second 0-60 car and reach a much wider audience. It'd probably be near the quickest stock car on the planet at high altitude, where the air being thinner just means the electric car has less to push against while the gas motored cars are sucking wind

The battery swap demonstration was a proof of concept. It won't be rolled out nationwide for at least half a decade if ever. The supercharger network isn't even close to complete yet and Tesla doesn't have the free capital to go down another infrastructure rabbit hole on top of gearing up for 2-3 new models and a Model S update/replacement over the next 5-7 years, starting with the Model S-based Model X 7-passenger CUV next year, which they claim will only be marginally slower from a standing start than Model S...
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      07-08-2013, 10:49 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
The battery swap demonstration was a proof of concept. It won't be rolled out nationwide for at least a decade if at all. The supercharger network isn't even close to complete yet and Tesla doesn't have the free capital to go down another infrastructure rabbit hole on top of gearing up for 2-3 new models and a Model S update/replacement in the next 5-7 years.

It's nowhere near the performance machine it's held out to be by Tesla. It can do amazing things once or twice but heat soaks quickly. It can generate great grip thank to a low CG but doesn't transition well due to relatively narrow front tires and huge weight. It falls on its face past about 90mph compared to anything with a decent amount of power, look at how long it takes to get from 80 to 100mph. M3 takes 3 seconds to get from 80 to 100 mph, Model S takes 4.6, and it's a full 5 seconds slower from 100mph to 120mph. At those speeds I can spot the Model S a full second to downshift (it doesn't take that long) and still pass it before I even need 4th gear in an M3. A 335 is similarly much quicker at higher speeds. So this whole "faster than an M5" schtick is complete BS on close inspection. Tesla was notably silent on the laptime when it took its cars to COTA for a press day. But that's the racetrack, and we live in reality...

Model S is an amazing car, and I want one. In the real world of cut and thrust 0-70mph traffic, it's a devastatingly quick car, and immensely practical in terms of people carrying and cargo capacity for its size. The "green" aspect of it is really a sideshow IMO, compared to those great attributes, and is really only interesting to me because it made the rest possible thanks to the packaging advantages of an electric drivetrain. On balance it's not much better than driving a 740i in terms of life cycle CO2e emissions, especially if you live on a coal fired power grid.

I'm really interested to see if they adapt Model X's powertrain to Model S to allow an AWD option. If they tuned it right that'd be a 3.5 second 0-60 car and reach a much wider audience. It'd probably be near the quickest stock car on the planet at high altitude, where the air being thinner just means the electric car has less to push against while the gas motored cars are sucking wind
Interesting post.
Let me elaborate on battery charging:

- Battery swap stations are production-ready and will be rolled out this year.

- Tesla has recently raised capital, around $800 million. So yeah they have the money. Just this month they opened THREE new superchargers:
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

"Coverage
Today 12 stations
Summer 2013 27 stations
Fall 2013 Most metropolitan areas
Winter 2013 Coast-to-coast travel
2014 80% of the US population and parts of Canada
2015 98% of the US population and parts of Canada"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
On balance it's not much better than driving a 740i in terms of life cycle CO2e emissions, especially if you live on a coal fired power grid.
Could you elaborate on this? It's not the first time I read something like this on this thread, I'd like to know more.

I agree high speeds (>80~90mph) are not electric car's main strength, but as you say we live in the real world where we seldom use these.
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      07-08-2013, 11:13 AM   #65
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I'm familiar with what Tesla says they will do, I get the press releases as soon as they are online. Saying and doing are two different things and so far they have a track record of overpromising and underdelivering, it just happens to be that their missing the mark has still been damned impressive.

As to CO2e, Union of Concerned Scientists had this (mostly positive) to say:
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles...tric-cars.html
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/images/...ons-fact-2.jpg

The report uses the Nissan Leaf as a base case, which is about 20% more efficient than Model S, and in most of the Midwest, driving a Leaf equates to the equivalent greenhouse emissions of a 31-40mpg car. The 740i is a ~25 mpg car driven reasonably. If you live on the coasts, especially the west coast, it's not even close
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      07-08-2013, 06:32 PM   #66
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I counted six of them in the EV parking spaces at work today:
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