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      06-27-2013, 02:52 PM   #111
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Yes, MDM is way too restrictive on the track. I tried the "Euro" MDM and it was still kicking in coming out of corners which killed my exit speeds. As long as you drive within your skill and comfort level, there's little chance of damaging your M3. The first track I ever drove was the Nurburgring, talk about a steep learning curve. My M3 ended up doing 50 laps undamaged. Car control is the most important thing to perfect when starting out, you build a solid foundation and it'll carry you as you become more advanced. You don't know what you are missing if you are driving with traction control on at the track.

Here's me driving pissed off but still demonstrating some car control after getting a puncture on my almost brand new Contisport 5Ps on the 1st session of the weekend and had to borrow my buddy's worn out PS2s.
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      06-27-2013, 03:39 PM   #112
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We have two tracks here, one with cement walls and dirt banks, and the other that will rip off your bumper and shred your suspension if you go off. I drive with Euro MDM and I'm on track for fun with as much skill as I can muster being thrown in, but I'm not trying to set hot lap records. Sure I could learn more from DSC off, but the consequences of that risk are too high for me personally.

I think the skier example is a good one. I ski and mountain bike, and I used to do some fairly big stuff on my bike. But I would draw a line when the consequences were too big. It didn't matter if 9 times out of 10 I would be fine, if there was that 1 out of 10 chance of catastrophic injury, then no thanks. Same goes for my car. Would I be fine with DSC off? Highly likely. Could I have a major incident? It's possible. I don't feel like riding the bus for the next 3 years.
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      06-27-2013, 03:54 PM   #113
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I tracked in MDM mode during first 12 months & 30 track days, then went DSC off 13 months & 25 track days ago.

When I switched to DSC off, what started happening was, the car would frequently oversteer before apex. Found out pretty quickly that the reason for it was due to turning in too early ("pinching the corner") while going in too fast. Being a novice, and despite having heard that you need to look further down the track, as soon as the track started bending, I was turning. And, especially at decreasing-radius corners, that mistake, which while in MDM mode would be masked or corrected by the computer so that the novice driver wouldn't even notice that he or she is making a mistake, would immediately translate into the car going into oversteer. I wound up getting a lot of practice doing counter-steer/corrections. It also made me think about what was causing it, which evolved to the realization that, conversely to me doing it unintentionally, turning in early is what drifters intentionally do to rotate the car (initiate drift). Same dynamics, but unplanned versus planned.

After that was realized & fixed, and I started getting faster, now the car would be oversteering after many apex. I had learned to turn in later and to get on the gas before the apex, but after the apex I was not consistently unwinding the steering wheel and heading out to track out. In fact, many videos would clearly show the steering wheel still turned substantially ("pinching the steering wheel") - i.e. the front tire angle was pretty much in parallel with the inside edge of the curving track. Well, getting on gas with steering wheel at that kind of angle resulted in lots of big oversteers, requiring massive corrections. And, again, while in MDM mode, things like that would be corrected by the car's computer, but the driver would be very aware [not of the fact that the computer saved the car from big oversteers/spins, but of the computer cutting off the gas (& applying brakes). And, as you get faster, this 'lag' (which feels like everything comes to a standstill or are in slow motion) gets longer and longer.] Anyhow, with DSC off, all those dynamics come to the surface, requiring you to think about what is going on, learn and adjust. And, I realized, when I was tracking out while in MDM mode, I wasn't truly tracking out where you can get on full throttle and feel the g-force pushing the car to track out; but rather, I was basically steering my way out to track out.

In any case, MDM is fine if you just want to enjoy your time out there in a relatively safe manner. But, after that, if you go DSC off, wow, it's a whole different array of sensations and interactions with both the car and the track. A fuller experience, one might say.
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      06-27-2013, 04:57 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
In any case, MDM is fine if you just want to enjoy your time out there in a relatively safe manner. But, after that, if you go DSC off, wow, it's a whole different array of sensations and interactions with both the car and the track. A fuller experience, one might say.
Agree with your entire post. I turned DSC off when MDM wouldn't let me throttle my way out of a slide and I was comfortable handling it on my own.

If you are starting out, don't feel pressured to go DSC off. I started in full DSC (1st track day), then progressed to MDM (6 track days over 2 different tracks), and now go to DSC off after the first warm-up session. DSC on is a great way to learn the limits of the car early in the track day if you haven't been to the track in a few weeks and are a bit rusty.
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      06-27-2013, 10:22 PM   #115
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I am glad this thread came up again as there is a new round of owners starting to track their M3s.
Here is the thing. It depends. There are tracks and parts of the country where a beginner can learn without TC or MDM and still be safe. There are other tracks/times where it would be very foolish. Do you live in So Cal, TX, dry track, lots of run off? Go for it. Or do you live in a place like the Pacific Northwest? Portland International Raceway (PIR) and Pacific Raceway (PR)have lots of close walls, typically near freezing early season and raining. Pacific has standing water, heck a ice patch the first time i went there, and about 6 different ages of asphalt. Very sketchy in the wet. Then PIR. There is goose poop all over the track early season. The city has a public Christmas lights around the track over the holidays.....lots of fluids spilled. My first track day a STI played pin pong of the walls. I have 5 track buddies that have lost their cars....one totaled 2 vipers now races spec miata.

So, turn off TC/MDM if you are ready and on a safe track but dont do it when wet at a dangerous track unless you are very experienced.......unless you can go out and buy a new car tommorrow.

Will you pick up bad habits by running MDM in the beginning? I didnt but is sounds like many do. You have to be very aware and notice when the TC/MDM kicks in/understand what you may be doing wrong. Once I turned it off it was a non issue.....speeds increased without any side effects. I didn't want to beat up or crash my $75,000 street car so I went ahead and built an E46 M3 track/race car........funny thing is I have $125,000+ into it. No TC and it only comes alive with a 8 degree slip angle.
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      06-28-2013, 01:28 AM   #116
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DSC On: First timers; limited fun but safe.

MDM On: Occasional track guy, enjoys sliding but scared of losing control; some fun but still safe.

DSC Off: Track junkie, enjoys high slip angles, want to pass the 'vettes, GT3s, GT-Rs; potential for lots of fun but obviously riskier.

My advice: learn how to drift on a skid pad with DSC off before going on the race track.
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      06-28-2013, 10:07 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
I tracked in MDM mode during first 12 months & 30 track days, then went DSC off 13 months & 25 track days ago.

When I switched to DSC off, what started happening was, the car would frequently oversteer before apex. Found out pretty quickly that the reason for it was due to turning in too early ("pinching the corner") while going in too fast. Being a novice, and despite having heard that you need to look further down the track, as soon as the track started bending, I was turning. And, especially at decreasing-radius corners, that mistake, which while in MDM mode would be masked or corrected by the computer so that the novice driver wouldn't even notice that he or she is making a mistake, would immediately translate into the car going into oversteer. I wound up getting a lot of practice doing counter-steer/corrections. It also made me think about what was causing it, which evolved to the realization that, conversely to me doing it unintentionally, turning in early is what drifters intentionally do to rotate the car (initiate drift). Same dynamics, but unplanned versus planned.

After that was realized & fixed, and I started getting faster, now the car would be oversteering after many apex. I had learned to turn in later and to get on the gas before the apex, but after the apex I was not consistently unwinding the steering wheel and heading out to track out. In fact, many videos would clearly show the steering wheel still turned substantially ("pinching the steering wheel") - i.e. the front tire angle was pretty much in parallel with the inside edge of the curving track. Well, getting on gas with steering wheel at that kind of angle resulted in lots of big oversteers, requiring massive corrections. And, again, while in MDM mode, things like that would be corrected by the car's computer, but the driver would be very aware [not of the fact that the computer saved the car from big oversteers/spins, but of the computer cutting off the gas (& applying brakes). And, as you get faster, this 'lag' (which feels like everything comes to a standstill or are in slow motion) gets longer and longer.] Anyhow, with DSC off, all those dynamics come to the surface, requiring you to think about what is going on, learn and adjust. And, I realized, when I was tracking out while in MDM mode, I wasn't truly tracking out where you can get on full throttle and feel the g-force pushing the car to track out; but rather, I was basically steering my way out to track out.

In any case, MDM is fine if you just want to enjoy your time out there in a relatively safe manner. But, after that, if you go DSC off, wow, it's a whole different array of sensations and interactions with both the car and the track. A fuller experience, one might say.
That is a great read. You should be an instructor soon if you are not already with the way you are able to analyze your driving.
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      06-28-2013, 07:57 PM   #118
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IMO, you're a low novice if your driving with MDM on. An advanced driver is trail braking, throttle steering, and sliding the car. Most important, an advanced driver is ahead of the car and corrects before issues compounds into a problem. Dont think that you're all safe and cozy with MDM on.

ideally you start with car control skills. Few of us do. I'd look for ways to develop that skill off track.

once you do with the E9x M3...youll realize you were missing out on 75% of the fun.
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      06-28-2013, 07:57 PM   #119
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IMO, you're a low intermediate if your driving with MDM on. An advanced driver is trail braking, throttle steering, and sliding the car. Most important, an advanced driver is ahead of the car and corrects before issues compounds into a problem. Dont think that you're all safe and cozy with MDM on.

ideally you start with car control skills. Few of us do. I'd look for ways to develop that skill off track.

once you do with the E9x M3...youll realize you were missing out on 75% of the fun.
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      06-29-2013, 07:28 AM   #120
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IMO, you're a low intermediate if your driving with MDM on. An advanced driver is trail braking, throttle steering, and sliding the car. Most important, an advanced driver is ahead of the car and corrects before issues compounds into a problem. Dont think that you're all safe and cozy with MDM on.

ideally you start with car control skills. Few of us do. I'd look for ways to develop that skill off track.

once you do with the E9x M3...youll realize you were missing out on 75% of the fun.
Very well put.
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      06-29-2013, 07:30 AM   #121
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As I have stated in the past, IMO, the longer one waits to turn DSC (or MDM) off, the more cautious one needs to be when one does turn it off.

I have seen way too many students become decently quick with dangerously bad habits that the electronics were hiding.

I have nothing against MDM, I use it on occasion. It is a tool to be used when needed. But, IMO, a good driver needs to know how to drive without it.

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      06-29-2013, 08:01 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
DSC On: First timers; limited fun but safe.

MDM On: Occasional track guy, enjoys sliding but scared of losing control; some fun but still safe.

DSC Off: Track junkie, enjoys high slip angles, want to pass the 'vettes, GT3s, GT-Rs; potential for lots of fun but obviously riskier.

My advice: learn how to drift on a skid pad with DSC off before going on the race track.
I agree. Although I learned to drive on track with no aids by buying a track car with no aids and sliding around on RA1's for awhile. It is much more fun for me now to drive w/o any aids, especially the forgiving E9X M3 chassis.
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      08-18-2013, 06:08 AM   #123
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I agree. Although I learned to drive on track with no aids by buying a track car with no aids and sliding around on RA1's for awhile. It is much more fun for me now to drive w/o any aids, especially the forgiving E9X M3 chassis.
Hey, missed you at Barber yesterday. Ran a 1:47 and change with DSC off on Pilot Super Sports, PFC08's, and -2.5 camber up front...and a 1:48 with a passenger

I was afraid of turning off the MDM because I kept thinking that it was saving me with many of the interventions that I was feeling and seeing when the light came on, and Danielle overheard me talking with a friend about the MDM saving me. She came over and told me to just do it, and turn it off.

I put my big boy pants on, and turned it off on the last session of the day, and OMG!!! What I thought were interventions that were saving me were actually interventions that were slowing me down!! I can't wait to go back and drive and experience more of what my M can do.
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      08-18-2013, 07:45 AM   #124
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I put my big boy pants on, and turned it off on the last session of the day, and OMG!!! What I thought were interventions that were saving me were actually interventions that were slowing me down!! I can't wait to go back and drive and experience more of what my M can do.
Remember when I had that realization. I'm a proponent of using MDM while learning, but there is no doubt that as you progress it will hold you back and keep you from enjoying the full brilliance of the M3. The diff, balance, communication through the chassis are protections in and of themselves. Just less forgiving and you've got to be in tune with them.
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      08-18-2013, 08:45 AM   #125
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Hey, missed you at Barber yesterday. Ran a 1:47 and change with DSC off on Pilot Super Sports, PFC08's, and -2.5 camber up front...and a 1:48 with a passenger

I was afraid of turning off the MDM because I kept thinking that it was saving me with many of the interventions that I was feeling and seeing when the light came on, and Danielle overheard me talking with a friend about the MDM saving me. She came over and told me to just do it, and turn it off.

I put my big boy pants on, and turned it off on the last session of the day, and OMG!!! What I thought were interventions that were saving me were actually interventions that were slowing me down!! I can't wait to go back and drive and experience more of what my M can do.
Cool, good times! It is so much more fun with full off.
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      08-25-2013, 12:50 AM   #126
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So here is a story for you all. A friend of mine was instructing at Portland International. It rained for two days, and his M5 driving student would just mash the throttle at each corner exit and let the DSC sort things out. It does. This frustrated my friend, and he suggested that the student turn DSC off, but also told him that they would do that in a turn where spin would be safe as he was CONVINCED spin was imminent. Novice student refused, and they went on their merry way enjoying the 400 HP beast with DSC assisted corner exits.

This student had fun, learned about the line, braking, weight transfer and some car control. That student went home with his gorgeous M5 intact.

My friend was driving his Cayman S, with DSC (PSM) off. He had lots of fun drifting through some corners (it rained two days non stop), and felt proud of passing Vipers and M3s. Though the Audis were unbeatable.

Towards the end of the day he was doing about 100 MPH in 4th gear. He was in middle of turn 9 (if you can call it that):



Throttle mashed to the ground, slight steering input, ~6,000 RPM. Basically a moment at the track when you would stretch your neck or your fingers, check your mirrors and gauges and then get ready for the braking zone.

Without any warning to this semi experienced driver, instructor, the rear stepped out to the left and the front grazed the wall (there is a wall on the right side along turn 9) followed by the rear. He had his car towed home.

My friend will always wonder how did he cause the crash. Did he get to close to the wall, did he hit a puddle, did he hit some fall leaves that he should have seen, did his leg twitch, was he too tired after two days and slow to respond to the spin, was he too comfortable and relaxed in turn 9...

So, to answer your question. If you have spare $20K to $50K and burning it would not make a significant difference in your life - by all means MDM off. But if that amount of money is meaningful or worse catastrophic to have to shell out tomorrow, keep DSC or at least MDM on.

And if you do turn it off, make a mental note that you have just doubled or 10x your risk (I do not know the multiplier), and make up for it with attentiveness.

Basically everything you do is risky, and in turn that much more rewarding. Same with MDM. Some people will use a condom and some people will take the risk... But think of the consequences of your decision, do not just go MDM off because your bestest friends in the world on M3 Forum said they do.

I personally will try to use it, if I find it too intrusive I will turn it off in the dry and when I feel super sharp. I will by rule run with it on during the last session of the day - the dangerous one - partially to force myself to slow down when I know I am tired. I will also keep it on in the rain. Spinning going straight when you just do not expect it scares the crap out of me as the straights I use have walls on both sides and I have seen cars in them. Spin on corner exit in 2nd gear I can manage, managing spin at 100 MPH is not something a skid pad exercise taught me. That comes with years of experience, and few cars that show scars. That just takes spinning at 100 MPH few times or I imagine oval experience when you are going very fast yet at a limit of adhesion.
PIR eats cars on HPDE days. Most of the other drivers on this forum drive on tracks with lot of run off and very few walls. PIR is an MDM track!
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      08-25-2013, 01:20 AM   #127
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Quote:
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DSC OFF: Learn how to drift on a skid pad with DSC off before going on the race track.
Very good point! "Drift" training has helped me to better understand my car much more. I will continue to do more "drift" training to help my understanding of the cars limits. This has also helped me to save a few close calls and to get closer to DSC OFF. I still have yet to trust the Nurburgring with DSC OFF though.
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      08-25-2013, 09:54 AM   #128
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PIR eats cars on HPDE days. Most of the other drivers on this forum drive on tracks with lot of run off and very few walls. PIR is an MDM track!
Might be a little OT but just because you don't see a wall right next to the track by no means make it safe. Quite often what you see driving by are green pastures of beautiful weeds ready to be mowed by a car. I think here in TX a lot of drivers think this way.

What's really out there are ditches, ruts, drainage pipes, rocks, debris, and tree stumps. I only saw that stuff because I run the track in the morning before the driver's meeting (like...run on two feet) and I look around.

Here's a video of Texas World Speedway. There's only 1 place off that track I would consider totally harmless. Everywhere else can get bad really fast.



Honestly...I'd rather do the Dukes of Hazard style launch through a ditch than hit a tree but either one should still be avoided.
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      08-25-2013, 10:05 AM   #129
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PIR eats cars on HPDE days. Most of the other drivers on this forum drive on tracks with lot of run off and very few walls. PIR is an MDM track!
Pacific Raceways up here in kent is the same way. lots of risk.
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      08-25-2013, 10:28 AM   #130
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I think its all about risk vs reward and what your priorities are.

My philosophy on this is the day I can afford to write off 60 grand is the day I'll go DSC off completely. Until then I use my Euro MDM to the fullest and only turn DSC off about one session a day (and drive slower) just to practice. I like having that tiny bit of insurance on the track, reducing my risk

Sure, keeping euro MDM on is helping me a bit and holding me back a bit but I'm not out there to win a trophy - I'm just out there to have fun and evolve my driving skills. When I want to have a full on blast with no electronic aids - - I go GoKarting!
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      08-25-2013, 10:38 AM   #131
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I think its all about risk vs reward and what your priorities are.

My philosophy on this is the day I can afford to write off 60 grand is the day I'll go DSC off completely. Until then I use my Euro MDM to the fullest and only turn DSC off about one session a day (and drive slower) just to practice. I like having that tiny bit of insurance on the track, reducing my risk

Sure, keeping euro MDM on is helping me a bit and holding me back a bit but I'm not out there to win a trophy - I'm just out there to have fun and evolve my driving skills. When I want to have a full on blast with no electronic aids - - I go GoKarting!
are you really slower with it off? i would bet not at the pace you drive, you have already learned very good car control and are way smooth.
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      08-25-2013, 10:45 AM   #132
w00tw00t
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
are you really slower with it off? i would bet not at the pace you drive, you have already learned very good car control and are way smooth.
thanks for the compliment 1moremod ... Yeah getting down to a 1:36.1 at pacific was a big milestone for me. I am slower with DSC off but that is intentional - as in I just drive slower .. My DSC off lap time is 1:40ish because I don't push it.
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