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      06-26-2013, 01:18 PM   #221
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this whole discussion with senna and prost needs to drop. senna always portrayed himself as a man of god, but he also was a HUGE ungodly womanizer (not that I personally think theres anything wrong with that). but we cant say for sure what was going on through their heads, and its presumptuous to assert that they did what they did for a particular reason.
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      06-26-2013, 02:12 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
this whole discussion with senna and prost needs to drop. senna always portrayed himself as a man of god, but he also was a HUGE ungodly womanizer (not that I personally think theres anything wrong with that). but we cant say for sure what was going on through their heads, and its presumptuous to assert that they did what they did for a particular reason.
But it's more fun to just argue for no apparent reason.
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      06-26-2013, 02:58 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
I get that, and I get the desire to assign order and reason to the chaos, but I dont get is how people can derive comfort from something when the explanation itself is riddled with so many problems, inconsistencies and contradictions? How is that better than simply saying, There's a lot of stuff we can't explain yet? We've come a long way from the time when the bible was written and most people then didnt understand where the sun went at night, (or were sent to prison for heresy when they suggested the accurate answer).

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to provoke, that's a genuine question. How is it better to say "here's the explanation", when that explanation leaves more questions than it answers, or requires one to swallow an elaborate backstory that really leaves the waters of logic more muddy than they were when it started?
I'm one who differentiates between religion and faith. Religion(s) has its warts certainly but is largely a force for good, albeit a mighty fine rationale for bad sometimes. I admire the miniscule advances in understanding "science" has given us but am quite happy, for now, to assign the rest to faith and something bigger than me. All the rest of the man-made rules are subject to scrutiny and while most work, many don't. My willingness to accept something is out there is rooted in our complete inability to get anywhere near answering the "why" questions.
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      06-26-2013, 04:09 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
My willingness to accept something is out there is rooted in our complete inability to get anywhere near answering the "why" questions.
This hurts.

My logic is powerless, let me find solace in the explanatory power of God.
I am a changed man today.
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      06-26-2013, 04:10 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
this whole discussion with senna and prost needs to drop. senna always portrayed himself as a man of god, but he also was a HUGE ungodly womanizer (not that I personally think theres anything wrong with that). but we cant say for sure what was going on through their heads, and its presumptuous to assert that they did what they did for a particular reason.
Good way to drop a discussion..
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      06-26-2013, 04:22 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
I get that, and I get the desire to assign order and reason to the chaos, but I dont get is how people can derive comfort from something when the explanation itself is riddled with so many problems, inconsistencies and contradictions? How is that better than simply saying, There's a lot of stuff we can't explain yet? We've come a long way from the time when the bible was written and most people then didnt understand where the sun went at night, (or were sent to prison for heresy when they suggested the accurate answer).

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to provoke, that's a genuine question. How is it better to say "here's the explanation", when that explanation leaves more questions than it answers, or requires one to swallow an elaborate backstory that really leaves the waters of logic more muddy than they were when it started?
It's a story written 2000yrs ago.. alot of the concepts could be mis-conveyed since the original genius Jesus discovered them.
This may be where I differ from traditional religion - I think of Buddha, Jesus, (even) Mohammed etc. as essentially spiritual geniuses who realised alot of spiritual truths, and they were so true and powerful when they told other people of it that it became a religion and was transcribed.

Sacrilige I know..
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      06-26-2013, 04:32 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
The University of Maryland has a course on the Origins of the Bible. One of the relevant documents on their website is a cataloged list of over 700 inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bib...sistencies.pdf

If that document is supposed to describe how a good Christian is supposed to behave, and what he's supposed to believe, then what parts are you supposed to take, and what parts are you supposed to discard? Certainly can't take it as a whole with that number of contradictions in it.
Did you even read the list? I don't disagree that there are few discrepancies or inconsistencies in the Bible, but there are far less than 700. Most of the items on the list are just remarks (some of it, mere sarcasm) regarding verses without any attempt to understand the underlying meaning to them. See, for example, 95% (or perhaps more) of the comments concerning Acts on forward through the rest of the New Testament.
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      06-26-2013, 05:04 PM   #228
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Relax people, they're just old books!
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      06-26-2013, 05:11 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Did you even read the list? I don't disagree that there are few discrepancies or inconsistencies in the Bible, but there are far less than 700. Most of the items on the list are just remarks (some of it, mere sarcasm) regarding verses without any attempt to understand the underlying meaning to them. See, for example, 95% (or perhaps more) of the comments concerning Acts on forward through the rest of the New Testament.
I have read the document; but I confess I didnt actually count to see if it added up to 700 exactly.

Certainly the tone of some of the points being mentioned is less than the reverential one usually reserved for such discussions.

Basically, it's the same tone often taken in other topics when there is an expectation that claims would be backed up with valid evidence, and such expectations are not met. There is undoubtedly a double standard, a routine deference accorded to religious ideologies. Deviations from that tend to surprise people.

Open conversations are essential to progress in other topics.
There's nothing wrong with asking for the same intellectual honesty when talking about religious views.

Sam Harris says it better than I can, so rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, I'll include his position below:

He suggests that, just as a person declaring a belief that Elvis is still alive would immediately make his every statement suspect in the eyes of those he was conversing with, asserting a similarly non-evidentiary point on a religious doctrine ought to be met with similar suspicion. He also believes there is a need to counter inhibitions that prevent the open critique of religious ideas, beliefs, and practices under the auspices of "tolerance".

He maintains that religion allows views that would otherwise be a sign of "madness" to become accepted or, in some cases, revered as "holy", citing as an example the doctrine of transubstantiation. Harris contends that if a lone individual developed this belief, he or she would be considered "mad", and that it is "merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that some all-knowing Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts while it is clinically demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating back to you by having the rain tap in code on your bedroom window"
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      06-26-2013, 07:32 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
I have read the document; but I confess I didnt actually count to see if it added up to 700 exactly.

Certainly the tone of some of the points being mentioned is less than the reverential one usually reserved for such discussions.

Basically, it's the same tone often taken in other topics when there is an expectation that claims would be backed up with valid evidence, and such expectations are not met. There is undoubtedly a double standard, a routine deference accorded to religious ideologies. Deviations from that tend to surprise people.
My point was that the vast majority of the items in the documents are not discrepancies at all but rather a mere restatement of the verse, with the implicit attempt to generate humor. So, to claim that there are "over 700 inconsistencies or contradictions in the bible" is quite an exaggeration.
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      06-26-2013, 08:07 PM   #231
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It's a story written 2000yrs ago.. alot of the concepts could be mis-conveyed since the original genius Jesus discovered them.
This may be where I differ from traditional religion - I think of Buddha, Jesus, (even) Mohammed etc. as essentially spiritual geniuses who realised alot of spiritual truths, and they were so true and powerful when they told other people of it that it became a religion and was transcribed.

Sacrilige I know..[/quote]


Actually... The story was started 4,000 years ago, and finished 2,000 years ago. The 66 books of the bible all correlate and inter-relate. It's not "a book written by Jesus", but rather many books, written by 39 different authors - unlike the other comparisons.
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      06-26-2013, 10:53 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Calm down, Joe. For someone who claims that "Even if you do perpetrate your opinions as fact, it's still your right of free speech and doesn't affect mine." (post 159 of this very thread), you sure seem to have gotten your knickers in a knot. No need to get all hyper sensitive and call people wacky, or batty, just because they disagree with you.

I think the wording of Alain's quote that I included is about as un-ambiguous and straightforward as it gets. Compared to a lot of quotes by a lot of drivers, I'm not sure how else one could interpret what he was saying. Dont think you need to have met him for that.

Unlike many quotes from Senna, including the time when he clinched his first title in '88, then proudly proclaimed to worlds media that he "saw God". Really, WTF does that mean? There any many ways to interpret that, you probably couldnt get a dozen priests to agree on exactly what he meant.



Mansell was also famous for a very aggressive style (hence his nickname at Ferrari "Il Leone".) He did many things that pissed off other drivers, but never the sort of intentional kamikaze moves that he knew would take himself out (and possibly physically injure) as well as his target. Trading paint with open wheel cars is a recipe for disaster in any context. Just ask Dan wheldon's widow.

Lots of drivers have taken others out over the years, and sometimes themselves too, but the last bit is usually unintentional. Even if it's a dodgy move, a drivers confidence makes them think they can get away with it. They try and come out clean. Senna and Schumi are the only ones I can recall who did moves that they surely knew would put them at risk just as bad as their target. (ie: they way they drove into people, there's no way they had an expectation of having a working car after that).




The University of Maryland has a course on the Origins of the Bible. One of the relevant documents on their website is a cataloged list of over 700 inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bib...sistencies.pdf

If that document is supposed to describe how a good Christian is supposed to behave, and what he's supposed to believe, then what parts are you supposed to take, and what parts are you supposed to discard? Certainly can't take it as a whole with that number of contradictions in it.

Those who choose to live their life by such a document think it's OK to call others "wacky"?!? Really?
Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle. Let's just say I wont lose any sleep if people who believe there is an invisible man in sky, think that I'm wacky.




Actually, no I don't know a lot, that's why I'm asking the question. That's what questions are for.

I can count on the fingers of both hands the number of formal sermons I've sat thru. That fact that I havent got the firsthand knowledge makes it more sensible that I would ask the question. You seem to have the logic backwards. If I had listened to a lot of sermons, I wouldnt need to ask the question now, would I ?

What I do know, is that I have seen firsthand people using the "Gods plan" card a lot, often in the presence of others who are self-described Christians. This whole "holding each other accountable" theory described by bbbbmw; I've NEVER seen that actually happen in practice, not in front of me anyways. Thats why I'm asking.
Wow, you're a bit touchy for a guy who has no problem belittling other people's beliefs.

Interesting that the documentary you said i should watch shows Prost deliberately wrecking his car into Senna's and then running to the stewards when Senna went through the run off area to reenter the track thereby missing a turn. I'm sure everything Prost said was genuine and had no ulterior motive at all.

I don't have the logic backwards, i mistook your genuine question as a rhetorical question. I guess partly because of this insistence on your part that you hear people use, as you put it "the God's plan card" on a daily basis. I would assume, being of christian faith i would be around more christians than you. I've never heard anyone say that to me directly. I've heard it before of course, but no where near at the pandemic rate your claiming.

The thing is that i've haven't shared a derogatory opinion about you or the millions like you with similar beliefs. Yet in several of your posts, you make a point to say something smug or tongue in cheek about people of faith in what seems to be an effort to paint them as weak minded idiots with an invisible friend. Which is sad because i never mind sharing my beliefs and why i chose to believe what i do. But when people do what you do in nearly every response, well then.... i have to pull out the big guns and really hurt people by using words, like...whacky.
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      06-27-2013, 12:19 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
i have to pull out the big guns and really hurt people by using words, like...whacky.
Well, for your sake, I hope your God would be pleased with you making a grown man cry uncontrollably like a 9 year old girl who just accidentally tore her Justin Bieber poster.
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      06-27-2013, 12:46 PM   #234
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Well, for your sake, I hope your God would be pleased with you making a grown man cry uncontrollably like a 9 year old girl who just accidentally tore her Justin Bieber poster.
hahaha

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      06-27-2013, 09:09 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post

Actually... The story was started 4,000 years ago, and finished 2,000 years ago. The 66 books of the bible all correlate and inter-relate. It's not "a book written by Jesus", but rather many books, written by 39 different authors - unlike the other comparisons.

actually the quran is similar, the quran was not written by Mohamed
in fact it was written down after he died
and any quran you find in any country anywhere on this planet
at least the Arabic ones (not the ones that have been translated) are identical
not a single letter is different

if you are familiar with SHA hash when it relates to software
there is something similar in the quran
if you change any letters or add letters etc
the hash doesn't match up
which means if anyone makes any changes, the numbers don't match up


see this link for more info
http://eholyquran.com/Quran/LinksPri...lesOfQuran.htm
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      06-28-2013, 09:51 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
From that article:
Quote:
[...] and thus Quran cannot be the work of humans. [...] Now that it is determined that Quran is the truly the word of God
Seriously? And the term "mathematical miracle" is used way too often...
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      06-28-2013, 12:06 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by scorcherjf View Post
From that article:

Seriously? And the term "mathematical miracle" is used way too often...
well it seems you had already formed a viewpoint before you read it
let's assume that it is not true, and that it is the work of humans
you really think some arab, wearing a galabeya, 1434 years ago
living in the desert could come up with this?

try to write something in English, roughly 77430 words, that also has a mathematical system behind it
don't use your calculator, or iphone or pc etc

and get back to me when you do

i'm not saying you have to believe it was written by god
I am just saying its not likely written by man
which opens the door to someone/something else being the entity that created it.
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      06-28-2013, 12:32 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
well it seems you had already formed a viewpoint before you read it
let's assume that it is not true, and that it is the work of humans
you really think some arab, wearing a galabeya, 1434 years ago
living in the desert could come up with this?

try to write something in English, roughly 77430 words, that also has a mathematical system behind it
don't use your calculator, or iphone or pc etc

and get back to me when you do

i'm not saying you have to believe it was written by god
I am just saying its not likely written by man
which opens the door to someone/something else being the entity that created it.
These type of "arguments" are used everywhere. I'm not discounting the mathematical properties of the Quran within the framework that it dictates. It's completely correct on the statistical probabilities and the arithmetic but that is no way of proving something. One simple assumption change like using base 8 instead of base 10 would nullify the whole analysis (but in all probability would create a new one!). There's infinitely many mathematical properties that can be applied to arrive at a conclusion that would seem statistically impossible but when you look at the statistical space you're working with, anything is impossible.

The same arguments are used to "prove" creationism is true and evolution can't be true. The probability that our species turned out the way it did today over so many millions of years if you assume a probabilistic model with regards to gene mutation would obviously give you an answer that would say it was virtually impossible. The problem is you're looking at the end point, which is one of infinitely many that could have occurred. So if, within a specific framework, something with exceptionally low probability is the basis of a proof that something happened or exists, then I'll leave you on your merry way.

I have no existing viewpoint with regards to the Quran nor do I intend to form one because it really doesn't matter to me. I just take issue with specific mathematical properties being heralded as "miracles" and being the basis of a proof that it couldn't have been written by any lowly human.
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      06-30-2013, 03:20 AM   #239
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Not to go off topic or anything.. but can anyone here prove God exists?
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      06-30-2013, 05:48 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Ahmed View Post
Not to go off topic or anything.. but can anyone here prove God exists?
maybe we are not yet technologically advanced enough to actually see/detect him?
just like 1000 years ago if you said anything about atoms, bacteria etc, you would be ridiculed

so the non believers are the same as the ones that hundreds of years ago ridiculed the ones that said no, the earth is not flat, and no , not all the planets and sun orbit around the earth

maybe us believers are the only forward looking ones

not saying that's true, but it is a possibility
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      06-30-2013, 09:07 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by scorcherjf View Post
These type of "arguments" are used everywhere. I'm not discounting the mathematical properties of the Quran within the framework that it dictates. It's completely correct on the statistical probabilities and the arithmetic but that is no way of proving something. One simple assumption change like using base 8 instead of base 10 would nullify the whole analysis (but in all probability would create a new one!). There's infinitely many mathematical properties that can be applied to arrive at a conclusion that would seem statistically impossible but when you look at the statistical space you're working with, anything is impossible.

The same arguments are used to "prove" creationism is true and evolution can't be true. The probability that our species turned out the way it did today over so many millions of years if you assume a probabilistic model with regards to gene mutation would obviously give you an answer that would say it was virtually impossible. The problem is you're looking at the end point, which is one of infinitely many that could have occurred. So if, within a specific framework, something with exceptionally low probability is the basis of a proof that something happened or exists, then I'll leave you on your merry way.

I have no existing viewpoint with regards to the Quran nor do I intend to form one because it really doesn't matter to me. I just take issue with specific mathematical properties being heralded as "miracles" and being the basis of a proof that it couldn't have been written by any lowly human.

"Miracles" or the like are used mainly to convince ignorants of the existing of a deity.
Probably the guy that wrote it up was a math genius, thats all it proves.
Why would god need to make something rythme to make people believe?
I don't believe god needs to make people believe..
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      06-30-2013, 10:09 AM   #242
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Not to go off topic or anything.. but can anyone here prove God exists?
Yah bro, there's like a whole book on it or something.

I started believing everything else that I read too like ironman, superman, but I have my doubts about this Sherlock Holmes fellow, seems a bit too smart to be real.
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