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      09-16-2007, 12:07 AM   #45
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My bad on the front tire width; it should have read 235mm; knew I needed more coffee!

As much as I love the idea of the Exige, I think it's a little too anemic in the mid-range for the street (for me). Haven't driven one, but I would have to generally agree with this from what I hear. Definately a nice track toy.

I can't decide wtf to buy. I like the S5 as a dd. But now I'm hearing 14/21 mpg and a hefty gas guzzler tax. I'm leaning back towards the 335xi again. I really want the M3, but don't know that I want two 3 series cars at the same time. That's not really a bad thing though.

If I do go 335xi, then I kept telling myself to get another 911S, but another low mileage used 06/07.

Not to bring up another poor topic...BUT, I recently drove an '08 Z06 and boy does it go. I typically do not like vettes. (I also drove an '08 C6 w/z51 and the hp bump and did not like that car at all.) The z06, on the other hand, that's a whole different game. Granted the car is a little cheesy -with it's low rent interior and somewhat orange peel paint, but it's a super car. I believe part of the "cheese factor" is because of the stigma attached to one here in the states. You just can't deny the performance per dollar. It's looks quite menacing in black w/polished wheels.
I would agree, the Vette and Z06 are the best performance bargain, period. The Vette for 08 has apparently greatly improved their interior options. I am like you, I don't know what car to get either. I have had concerns about Audi mileage for some time. BMW always seems to better the performance/mileage quotient. Of course there is no perfect car, unless you ask those blinded by the shiny roundel. I know if the e92 M3 had DFI, less mass, steering feedback, and multi pot brakes like the lesser 135, it would probably be my perfect allround car. Still comes fairly close, if they will keep the base price between mid and late 50s.
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      09-16-2007, 02:14 AM   #46
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First off South, I really do like you, and you have my blessing with showing me up all you want. It's a good learning experience. I hope you feel the same. I just returned from watching the Koni and Rolex series completed at Miller Motor Sports Park today. What seemed evident, though it is a stereotype, that the M3's in general would make gains on the straitaways and the 997's would make up the difference in the turns, as I said previously, they could drive harder or in other words carry more speed in to the corners than the M3s. I "hypothosized" from my observation of this that 997's tend to have better brakes and M3's tend to have a stronger engine. I was pleased to see the Turner M3 #97 win the Koni race yesterday. South, why do I have to repeat myself, I did not say the 997 could brake harder into a corner as you said I did. This is the second time you have misquoted me then tried to make your "technological" argument with your misquote. Your first misquote of mine was your little rip on me about sharing my opinion with another poster about awd. You said, where is my technological evidence the Audi is any better then Xdrive?...Well I provided obvious facts and repeated them twice yet you never provided an ounce of your own technological genius as to why the Xdrive is as good or better than Audi Quattro. You then again gave it to me saying I didn't use technological proof....ya, ok. What is this thing with you and BMW this, and BMW that, and BMW everything. Are you BMW's #1 marketing department head volunteer? If so, you deserve better compensation.
So you're still in the mood of being cynical.
I don't see how this can be understood in another way than I did:
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I think the C2S will have a slightly better time around the Ring due to it's better brakes. It will be able to drive harder into corners because of them.
You're saying the C2 S will be able to drive harder into corners due to the better brakes. So I did believe that you really meant better brakes, then you must talk about braking into corner. But if you're not talking about braking into corner, any advantage of the C2 S in the corners has nothing to do with better brakes. So I did understand your statement in a way it made at least little sense, couldn't know that it was meant in a way it makes no sense at all. So discussing with you seems quite pointless.

Best regards, south

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      09-16-2007, 04:52 AM   #47
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I would agree, the Vette and Z06 are the best performance bargain, period. The Vette for 08 has apparently greatly improved their interior options. I am like you, I don't know what car to get either. I have had concerns about Audi mileage for some time. BMW always seems to better the performance/mileage quotient. Of course there is no perfect car, unless you ask those blinded by the shiny roundel. I know if the e92 M3 had DFI, less mass, steering feedback, and multi pot brakes like the lesser 135, it would probably be my perfect allround car. Still comes fairly close, if they will keep the base price between mid and late 50s.
You admit the Vette and ZO6 are great performance bargains and are good handling cars depite the fact that they both use leaf springs. Suspension technology that was perfected back in the days of the horse and buggy. Yet, the M3 gets mocked for having single piston brakes and no DFI. Of course it would be great to have these but are they really needed? It would be great if the Z06 had a modern coilover suspension but obviously it does just fine on leaf springs. So why bust the M3 when the brakes 99% of the time will be more than adequate?

We are really starting to see mixed reviews on the brakes so in the end I think its going to be subjective.

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      09-16-2007, 07:13 AM   #48
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You admit the Vette and ZO6 are great performance bargains and are good handling cars depite the fact that they both use leaf springs. Suspension technology that was perfected back in the days of the horse and buggy. Yet, the M3 gets mocked for having single piston brakes and no DFI. Of course it would be great to have these but are they really needed? It would be great if the Z06 had a modern coilover suspension but obviously it does just fine on leaf springs. So why bust the M3 when the brakes 99% of the time will be more than adequate?

We are really starting to see mixed reviews on the brakes so in the end I think its going to be subjective.

Jason

Well...for what the M3 is likely to cost, I would expect more from it (DFI and brakes). Whether or not these things are needed is another debate, but we expect more in this competitive market. I mean as great a car as the M is going to be, it's not like it's crushing the competition. The z06, on the other hand, stomps most everything within striking distance of it's price and many well beyond it. So, as much as I am not a typical vette fan, I am willing to forgive it for it's flaws because it more than makes up for it in peformance.

Not many other cars can say that. But, of course, most of us here wouldn't want that type of car anyway.
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      09-16-2007, 07:35 AM   #49
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I would agree, the Vette and Z06 are the best performance bargain, period. The Vette for 08 has apparently greatly improved their interior options. I am like you, I don't know what car to get either. I have had concerns about Audi mileage for some time. BMW always seems to better the performance/mileage quotient. Of course there is no perfect car, unless you ask those blinded by the shiny roundel. I know if the e92 M3 had DFI, less mass, steering feedback, and multi pot brakes like the lesser 135, it would probably be my perfect allround car. Still comes fairly close, if they will keep the base price between mid and late 50s.
I'd willingly pay in the mid $60's for a car like that.
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      09-16-2007, 11:20 AM   #50
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The big picture

Guys, I think many of you are missing the big picture. Remember my (and others) mantra, the M3 is all about compromise. That DEFINITELY should not be interpreted as a negative thing either!

I am first in line agreeing that the new M3 SHOULD have multi-pot brakes and direct fuel injection. However, I often try to remind myself of this KEY point.

Equal or better performance to the 911S and R8 for $20k/$50k less respectively! COMPROMISE - gotta love it.

I'll try to remind myself of this key work during my next post criticising some part of the car I am not happy about.
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      09-16-2007, 12:14 PM   #51
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Guys, I think many of you are missing the big picture. Remember my (and others) mantra, the M3 is all about compromise. That DEFINITELY should not be interpreted as a negative thing either!

I am first in line agreeing that the new M3 SHOULD have multi-pot brakes and direct fuel injection. However, I often try to remind myself of this KEY point.

Equal or better performance to the 911S and R8 for $20k/$50k less respectively! COMPROMISE - gotta love it.

I'll try to remind myself of this key work during my next post criticising some part of the car I am not happy about.
Good points. That is why the M3 is on my list of the top 3 cars to buy. As far as allround track performance, I don't think the M3 will match the C2S...too much mass and too many compromises. Porsches are built to perform on the track yet are also decent daily drivers. M3's are built to be daily drivers but are decent track cars.
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      09-16-2007, 12:21 PM   #52
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Good points. That is why the M3 is on my list of the top 3 cars to buy. As far as allround track performance, I don't think the M3 will match the C2S...too much mass and too many compromises. Porsches are built to perform on the track yet are also decent daily drivers. M3's are built to be daily drivers but are decent track cars.
Agreed. C2S will be better/faster on at least 8 out of 10 tracks, question left is: Will it beat the M3 on the Ring?

Best regards, south
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      09-16-2007, 12:36 PM   #53
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I can't decide wtf to buy. I like the S5 as a dd. But now I'm hearing 14/21 mpg and a hefty gas guzzler tax. I'm leaning back towards the 335xi again. I really want the M3, but don't know that I want two 3 series cars at the same time. That's not really a bad thing though.

If I do go 335xi, then I kept telling myself to get another 911S, but another low mileage used 06/07.
IMO, I could never buy a BMW all wheel drive sedan or coupe. To many better offerings on the market. No sports suspension for Xdrive means no brainer for me. If you could hold off, the rumor is the new B8 will be putting biturbos on the 3.2 litre. For me, that would be the AWD car to buy. It should get better mileage as well. I am not a big fan of all wheel drive anyway...mass, complicated system, drive train loss, and poor mileage. I live above 5500 feet and yet there are only a few days a years where the highways are not passable. Snow tires on a rear wheel drive platform will perfom in the snow as well as all season tires with all wheel drive. All wheel drive doesn't make much of a difference if the tires are not getting traction.
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      09-16-2007, 12:38 PM   #54
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Agreed. C2S will be better/faster on at least 8 out of 10 tracks, question left is: Will it beat the M3 on the Ring?

Best regards, south
I can't believe what I just read. A few to many beers this weekend?
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      09-16-2007, 12:43 PM   #55
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I can't believe what I just read. A few to many beers this weekend?
Yes, it's all good. Never said my beer glass labeled Porsche is empty.
[EDIT: Oktoberfest starts next week, no beer for me until then]

Best regards, south
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      09-16-2007, 01:36 PM   #56
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IMO, I could never buy a BMW all wheel drive sedan or coupe. To many better offerings on the market. No sports suspension for Xdrive means no brainer for me. If you could hold off, the rumor is the new B8 will be putting biturbos on the 3.2 litre. For me, that would be the AWD car to buy. It should get better mileage as well. I am not a big fan of all wheel drive anyway...mass, complicated system, drive train loss, and poor mileage. I live above 5500 feet and yet there are only a few days a years where the highways are not passable. Snow tires on a rear wheel drive platform will perfom in the snow as well as all season tires with all wheel drive. All wheel drive doesn't make much of a difference if the tires are not getting traction.

Yeah, a 335i coupe w/4 Blizzaks or whatever will likely do the trick.

I am not that familar w/ Audis. Is the B8 you are referring to the new A4?
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      09-16-2007, 01:49 PM   #57
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Well...for what the M3 is likely to cost, I would expect more from it (DFI and brakes). Whether or not these things are needed is another debate, but we expect more in this competitive market. I mean as great a car as the M is going to be, it's not like it's crushing the competition. The z06, on the other hand, stomps most everything within striking distance of it's price and many well beyond it. So, as much as I am not a typical vette fan, I am willing to forgive it for it's flaws because it more than makes up for it in peformance.

Not many other cars can say that. But, of course, most of us here wouldn't want that type of car anyway.
Which is why I think BMW is going to surprise us all and sell the M3 at an MSRP of 55k in the USA. (just a hope of mine)

I know they wont have too much of problem selling 50,000 of these babies on our soil at that price!

Oh and that would also make it the best bang for the buck in its class and several classes above that too....then we can all stop bickering and get this forum in the right direction.

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      09-16-2007, 01:52 PM   #58
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Guys, I think many of you are missing the big picture. Remember my (and others) mantra, the M3 is all about compromise. That DEFINITELY should not be interpreted as a negative thing either!

I am first in line agreeing that the new M3 SHOULD have multi-pot brakes and direct fuel injection. However, I often try to remind myself of this KEY point.

Equal or better performance to the 911S and R8 for $20k/$50k less respectively! COMPROMISE - gotta love it.

I'll try to remind myself of this key work during my next post criticising some part of the car I am not happy about.
Not so much (as far as missing the bg picture). For me having a M3, like the aforementioned, would be worth a higher cost of admission, even IF the results were only marginally better. Just knowing that it had all that tech and looking at the brakes would get me excited. Isn't that part of the whole sports car effect?; owning and admiring a car that possesses well crafted parts, etc...

As far as supposedly beating the cars that you mentioned. Many times the ride is more than the numbers. If the M does beat the S at the Ring, does that make it a better car? In many people's minds, yes. And, it certainly deserves credit where it's due, especially being the under dog. But, it doesn't mean that it's more fun to drive. That, again, is a subjective decision. (I don't really believe that the M will best the S @ the Ring, but I'll play until the results come out.)
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      09-16-2007, 02:16 PM   #59
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As far as supposedly beating the cars that you mentioned. Many times the ride is more than the numbers. If the M does beat the S at the Ring, does that make it a better car? In many people's minds, yes. And, it certainly deserves credit where it's due, especially being the under dog. But, it doesn't mean that it's more fun to drive. That, again, is a subjective decision. (I don't really believe that the M will best the S @ the Ring, but I'll play until the results come out.)
These, which is more fun to drive, discussions never really go anywhere. Its a very subjective topic.

For example, I havnt driven anything that is much more fun that my E36 M3 even though by todays standards its a slow car.

A Lotus Exige or Aerial Atom are probably very fun cars to drive but also very unpractical. The S2000 and Miata are little more practical but lack room and back seats. The Vettes are great performers but thats about it. The Porsches are awesome but the price of admission is steep. The M3 is going to be fun to drive, probably not as fun as a Lotus but still fun. Plus, I get a back seat, a great interior, cool electrical toys, and gobs of performance that will at least give a 997S a run for its money!

And, Yes, since the "ring" has become the bench mark where all new sports cars tested, I do care about its lap time. Even coming close to the 997S is going to be thrilling. I mean we all love M3's but this is the first time an M3 has really given Porsche a run for its money. So, even coming close is at least as good as any other M3 and probably better than most.

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      09-16-2007, 02:18 PM   #60
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Yes

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Just knowing that it had all that tech and looking at the brakes would get me excited. Isn't that part of the whole sports car effect?; owning and admiring a car that possesses well crafted parts, etc...
...
As far as supposedly beating the cars that you mentioned. Many times the ride is more than the numbers.
Right on, strongly agree with both of those points! If I move forward on the M and there is a hint of performance problems with the brakes, BBK here I come.
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      09-16-2007, 02:36 PM   #61
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Yes, it's all good. Never said my beer glass labeled Porsche is empty.
[EDIT: Oktoberfest starts next week, no beer for me until then]

Best regards, south
You are a good man.
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      09-16-2007, 02:45 PM   #62
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You are a good man.
And you're forgiving...

Best regards, south
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      09-16-2007, 03:10 PM   #63
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Right on, strongly agree with both of those points! If I move forward on the M and there is a hint of performance problems with the brakes, BBK here I come.
I'm sure we could get a sweet group deal for all of us here.
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      09-16-2007, 04:30 PM   #64
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These, which is more fun to drive, discussions never really go anywhere. Its a very subjective topic.

For example, I havnt driven anything that is much more fun that my E36 M3 even though by todays standards its a slow car.

A Lotus Exige or Aerial Atom are probably very fun cars to drive but also very unpractical. The S2000 and Miata are little more practical but lack room and back seats. The Vettes are great performers but thats about it. The Porsches are awesome but the price of admission is steep. The M3 is going to be fun to drive, probably not as fun as a Lotus but still fun. Plus, I get a back seat, a great interior, cool electrical toys, and gobs of performance that will at least give a 997S a run for its money!

And, Yes, since the "ring" has become the bench mark where all new sports cars tested, I do care about its lap time. Even coming close to the 997S is going to be thrilling. I mean we all love M3's but this is the first time an M3 has really given Porsche a run for its money. So, even coming close is at least as good as any other M3 and probably better than most.

Jason
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      09-16-2007, 04:30 PM   #65
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Right on, strongly agree with both of those points! If I move forward on the M and there is a hint of performance problems with the brakes, BBK here I come.
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      09-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #66
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I'm sure we could get a sweet group deal for all of us here.
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