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      09-14-2007, 05:48 PM   #45
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Depends how you rationalise M now, I suppose. If you mean as a maker of GT cars, then I guess the older, less technically contrived E39 would be more involved than the E92 on EDC. It's all moot though because I don't see any Audi's on that list
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      09-14-2007, 06:14 PM   #46
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I guess it's best to just ask Steve.

Steve, what were the criteria for the rankings exactly?
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      09-14-2007, 06:16 PM   #47
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I guess it's best to just ask Steve.

Steve, what were the criteria for the rankings exactly?
it's obvious someone on EVO has a soft spot for the E39.

This is why I asked Steved in my post about this......

The world awaits Steved's reply......
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      09-14-2007, 06:23 PM   #48
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      09-14-2007, 07:31 PM   #49
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They might have ranked the M5 based on it being the best 4dr "M" in their opinion- just my 2 cents.........

If the E90 M3 was out already it probably would have taken the E39's place-
right Steved?
Like they said, it was an icon. Probably the best all-around 4-door sedan ever made.
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      09-14-2007, 09:52 PM   #50
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Both M5 and M6 feel remote and lack interaction, they are fast but there's very little fun to be had driving them. I drove the M6 during this test for a few hundred miles and was bored and had little wish to drive it again. The SMG system is slower than SMG2 in my CSL and does not allow the driver to blip the throttle on downchanges. You struggle to boot it sideways out of a junction, since the torque just isn't delivered strongly until higher up the rev range. It all feels very undriver centric when compared with other M-cars.

The E92 M3 on the other hand feels like it is cut from the same block as the iconic M-cars, however it still relies a little too much on technology and compared to the greats, there still feels like there is a layer of tech in between driver and the road. Maybe that's progress, but I would really like to drive an E92 M3 without EDC and kept as simple in spec as possibe, since I suspect that might be the best way to have it.

So the E92 M3 is close to being great and could easily become one of the greats in a less-GT, more driver focused version.
My thoughts exactly, this is why I started the thread: Has the M Division lost their way? I am glad to hear the E92 M is not quite the technological pig as the E60 M5 and the M6. I have always felt the stripper version of the M3 would be the best representation of why I fell in love with M cars in the first place, not to mention better drivers car, cheaper, leaner, and a lot more reliable down the road. The M5 and M6 are a whole different animal - bloated grand tourers.
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      09-14-2007, 10:15 PM   #51
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E39 may also be the M5 with the best compromise between purity and power...

Best regards, south
South, I completely agree with you, but no technological argument to prove it, I am a bit dissapointed?....Like a technological argument is ever going to change the minds of the bias enthusiasts that we are. Nothing ever seems to change your mind.

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      09-14-2007, 10:18 PM   #52
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Technology?

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The E92 M3 on the other hand feels like it is cut from the same block as the iconic M-cars, however it still relies a little too much on technology and compared to the greats, there still feels like there is a layer of tech in between driver and the road. Maybe that's progress, but I would really like to drive an E92 M3 without EDC and kept as simple in spec as possibe, since I suspect that might be the best way to have it.
The strange thing about this certainly with reagrds to the suspension is that EDC in sport mode is not an active suspension control system. It should be identical in feel to a standard shock which it is functioning as. Next you can fully disable DSC except of course the ABS. Not sure how much else is "technology" interfering with the purist feel.

So I don't doubt the basic conclusion - there is something isolating about the feel of the car. I certainly can't say as I have not driven it. I just struggle a bit with the explanation of the culprit being "technology".
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      09-15-2007, 12:23 AM   #53
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My thoughts exactly, this is why I started the thread: Has the M Division lost their way? I am glad to hear the E92 M is not quite the technological pig as the E60 M5 and the M6. I have always felt the stripper version of the M3 would be the best representation of why I fell in love with M cars in the first place, not to mention better drivers car, cheaper, leaner, and a lot more reliable down the road. The M5 and M6 are a whole different animal - bloated grand tourers.
Fundamentally the E60 M5 and E63 M6 are not much more technological than the E92 M3. I would call them pigs, not technological pigs. The bloat in these cars is weight and size more than technology IMHO. I have been a fanatical fan of my E39 M5 and frothed for months awaiting news on the (then new) E60 M5. I was hugely disappointed and stayed on the sideline, hoping the E63 M6 would be better. It wasn't. Bloated for sure, but in my mind they even failed the GT test. I frequently drive thousands of miles in a single trip and these things simply can't do the miles unless you tow your own gas trailer. Sorta sad I think. The E92 M3 was BMW's last chance to sell me a new car - otherwise I was going to run the E39 into the ground and move on to some other brand. I haven't driven one yet but I perceive the E92 M3 to be the next generation M5 more than the next gen M3. I am happy that whether readers agree or not that EVO placed the E39 M5 in their top list and I am further happy that the E92 M3 bests the E60 M5 and E63 M6.

For years BMW has steadfastly refused to do an M7, claiming that the size and weight of such a car wouldn't fit the ///M brand philosophy. The current M5 and M6 are bigger than the earlier 7ers they refused the convert to M. The fact that the E60 and E63 are more portly then older 7ers yet somehow qualify for ///M treatment shows you just how much the brand has been compromised
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      09-15-2007, 12:38 AM   #54
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The strange thing about this certainly with regards to the suspension is that EDC in sport mode is not an active suspension control system. It should be identical in feel to a standard shock which it is functioning as.

I am still not sure this is really the case - has anybody found any facts to support that EDC-C (sometimes referred to as EDC-III+) works this way? And furthermore, BMW has never said that the E92 M3's EDC IS EDC-C - it may actually be a generation newer than what has shown up on newer BMWs, or a specifically tuned version of EDC-C just for the E92 M3.

And why would standard shocks/dampers feel better than EDC anyway? If I'm not mistaken F1 used active shocks for years, and they only had one type of "road" to deal with. Call the setting "active stiff". Correct me if I'm wrong but active shocks/dampers/suspension were used until catastrophic failures killed Aryton Senna (and others I don't recall - not a huge fan). Surely they saw an advantage?
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      09-15-2007, 12:48 AM   #55
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it's obvious someone on EVO has a soft spot for the E39.

This is why I asked Steved in my post about this......

The world awaits Steved's reply......
I take it you've owned one and know? What did you replace it with? I think the migration path of car ownership tells you as much about what you value as much as the actual cars you've owned.
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      09-15-2007, 02:20 AM   #56
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The E92 M3 on the other hand feels like it is cut from the same block as the iconic M-cars, however it still relies a little too much on technology and compared to the greats, there still feels like there is a layer of tech in between driver and the road. Maybe that's progress, but I would really like to drive an E92 M3 without EDC and kept as simple in spec as possibe, since I suspect that might be the best way to have it.

So the E92 M3 is close to being great and could easily become one of the greats in a less-GT, more driver focused version.
I don't get the hatred of technology. I loved my 320i and 635csi. I don't want another of either car. Why? The new cars are simply better. Technology is a good thing. I have a modern day throwback car as my weekend toy. It doesn't get driven that much because I enjoy the E46 more except when I am at a track or autocross. Its simply a better everyday car.

I don't miss a leaky sunroof.
I don't miss semi-trailing arm rear suspensions. Yes it was involving that the car could snap and kill you at a moments notice. However, thats not really the imvolvement I want.
I don't miss manual gearboxes.
I don't miss non-abs brakes
I don't miss having to rev the crap out of the car to get reasonable acceleration.
I don't miss manual windows, seats, or headlights.
I don't miss getting lost and wishing I had a way to get directions. The GPS means never having to ask again.

I don't get the hangup on the E30 M3 or E39 M5. They were great cars for their day. But by todays standards, a new civic could probably kick their ass at the track. So you have all the anoyances of a old car and none of the upside.
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      09-15-2007, 02:45 AM   #57
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Fundamentally the E60 M5 and E63 M6 are not much more technological than the E92 M3. I would call them pigs, not technological pigs. The bloat in these cars is weight and size more than technology IMHO. I have been a fanatical fan of my E39 M5 and frothed for months awaiting news on the (then new) E60 M5. I was hugely disappointed and stayed on the sideline, hoping the E63 M6 would be better. It wasn't. Bloated for sure, but in my mind they even failed the GT test. I frequently drive thousands of miles in a single trip and these things simply can't do the miles unless you tow your own gas trailer. Sorta sad I think. The E92 M3 was BMW's last chance to sell me a new car - otherwise I was going to run the E39 into the ground and move on to some other brand. I haven't driven one yet but I perceive the E92 M3 to be the next generation M5 more than the next gen M3. I am happy that whether readers agree or not that EVO placed the E39 M5 in their top list and I am further happy that the E92 M3 bests the E60 M5 and E63 M6.
rvacha,

I'm also an E39 M5 owner who didn't make the switch to the E60 for the same reasons as you posted (weight & too much technology) and I'm looking at the E92 M3 as the replacement for the E39. I've been looking for a while for a replacement for the E39 M5 which is doing me well but starting to get a little old. I want pretty much the same experience as the E39 M5 but a car that is a bit more nimble in the corners. Its good to hear that I'm not the only one thinking this way.

The new M3 is not that much smaller than than the E39 and looks a lot better, but I only wish it had 3 seats in the back - it certainly has the space to seat three small adults or kids.
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      09-15-2007, 02:50 AM   #58
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I don't get the hangup on the E30 M3 or E39 M5. They were great cars for their day. But by todays standards, a new civic could probably kick their ass at the track. So you have all the anoyances of a old car and none of the upside.


You are quite right, this nostalgic thing can get totally out of hand, the E90 M3 and E95 M5 will be as old as the Model T Ford eventually!

Progress is what it's all about. It's why we are all on these boards. Progress is exactly what happens in the F1 world; the main technical attraction.
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      09-15-2007, 03:27 AM   #59
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I don't get the hangup on the E30 M3 or E39 M5. They were great cars for their day. But by todays standards, a new civic could probably kick their ass at the track.
Considering these are two of the top 4 M cars, I very much doubt either would struggle against a Civic, especially the E30 in Sport Evo guise.
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      09-15-2007, 04:14 AM   #60
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I think the problem is that we live in a world now where a car can be both at home on the track and at home as a daily driver.

We are all trying to lump the M3 into one category like GT or Racer. When really the M3 could fall into several different categories depending on how you have the car setup or even how you drive the car.

Those of you that want a GT will get it. Based on the ring time alone it sounds like those of you that want a track car will get that too.

Jason
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      09-15-2007, 08:08 AM   #61
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Fundamentally the E60 M5 and E63 M6 are not much more technological than the E92 M3. I would call them pigs, not technological pigs. The bloat in these cars is weight and size more than technology IMHO. I have been a fanatical fan of my E39 M5 and frothed for months awaiting news on the (then new) E60 M5. I was hugely disappointed and stayed on the sideline, hoping the E63 M6 would be better. It wasn't. Bloated for sure, but in my mind they even failed the GT test. I frequently drive thousands of miles in a single trip and these things simply can't do the miles unless you tow your own gas trailer. Sorta sad I think. The E92 M3 was BMW's last chance to sell me a new car - otherwise I was going to run the E39 into the ground and move on to some other brand. I haven't driven one yet but I perceive the E92 M3 to be the next generation M5 more than the next gen M3. I am happy that whether readers agree or not that EVO placed the E39 M5 in their top list and I am further happy that the E92 M3 bests the E60 M5 and E63 M6.

For years BMW has steadfastly refused to do an M7, claiming that the size and weight of such a car wouldn't fit the ///M brand philosophy. The current M5 and M6 are bigger than the earlier 7ers they refused the convert to M. The fact that the E60 and E63 are more portly then older 7ers yet somehow qualify for ///M treatment shows you just how much the brand has been compromised
Good post. E39 M5 is a great car and can still hold it's own against any competition. It remains the best allround car BMW ever produced. IMO, The E60 version is a huge step towards AMG and away from it's own heritage. My reference to technological pig was my way of saying I am unhappy about it's mass and it's electronic and software excess.
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      09-15-2007, 09:06 AM   #62
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I think the problem is that we live in a world now where a car can be both at home on the track and at home as a daily driver.

We are all trying to lump the M3 into one category like GT or Racer. When really the M3 could fall into several different categories depending on how you have the car setup or even how you drive the car.

Those of you that want a GT will get it. Based on the ring time alone it sounds like those of you that want a track car will get that too.

Jason
Exactly! Steve Dinan started his review in Roundel by saying "I am often asked what my favorite BMW model is. Itís an impossible question to answer. The M3 is always the sportiest; the M5 a great high-speed cruiser; the 550i is more luxurious and smooth. So it really depends on what mood Iím in! Iíve always thought you needed to have at least two BMWs, and one of those should be an M3." He concludes later in the review "At the start of this article I mentioned that you need two BMWs; my preference had always been one M5 and one M3. After driving the new M3, however, I find this notion obsolete - because this new M3 is a lot like a baby M5, halfway between the old M3 and the current M5 in power, weight, and refinement. It carries its extra weight very well, still delivers a sporty feel, and may just be the perfect compromise"

And this is exactly what I want in my new ///M. Dinan certainly seems to imply between the lines that as a pure track car the new M3 takes a small step away from M3s of old, but is more capable of being more things to more people in more situations. IMHO if you are going to get a car like this then EDC is almost non-optional as it completes the package and extends the range of the car's capabilities. Many people here are under the impression (or at least hoping) that a non-EDC M3 will be step closer (as a track car) to what M3s of old used to be. I'm not sure this will be the case, and is the reason for my posts regarding it.
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      09-15-2007, 10:31 AM   #63
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South, I completely agree with you, but no technological argument to prove it, I am a bit dissapointed?....Like a technological argument is ever going to change the minds of the bias enthusiasts that we are. Nothing ever seems to change your mind.
No need to mess up every thread!

Best regards, south
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      09-15-2007, 12:43 PM   #64
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The strange thing about this certainly with reagrds to the suspension is that EDC in sport mode is not an active suspension control system. It should be identical in feel to a standard shock which it is functioning as. Next you can fully disable DSC except of course the ABS. Not sure how much else is "technology" interfering with the purist feel.

So I don't doubt the basic conclusion - there is something isolating about the feel of the car. I certainly can't say as I have not driven it. I just struggle a bit with the explanation of the culprit being "technology".
Agreed. It is interesting that "technology" is often used a blanket statement to explain why the recent M cars are not staying true to M standards. There sure is stuff BMW engineers have integrated into the car that don't necessarily improve its performance and I'd much rather not have, but there are many technological innovations that any sane enthusiasts would not like to live without. Just think about the engine and how it is managed. DSC will save your life, and it can be almost completely turned off. EDC will make your life easier, and as Swamp is saying, that can be taken off-line by putting the car in passive mode. And you can order the car without it.

The only exception I can think of in the E92 M3, without having driven it, is perhaps the steering and how that is managed. Is it a direct mechanical linkage, or is there some kind of a sensor/servo break in the loop? If it is the latter, I can maybe understand the reported numb steering feel at center. If it is the former, I am wondering if there is too much damping in the steering system. And, I can see how speed sensitive steering assist can be annoying--I'd much rather have constant low input assist at all vehicle speeds at the expense of not being able to turn the wheel with my finger while parallel parking--but I don't see how that can be contributing to the reported numb steering feel at the center.
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      09-15-2007, 01:31 PM   #65
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Quote:
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I take it you've owned one and know? What did you replace it with? I think the migration path of car ownership tells you as much about what you value as much as the actual cars you've owned.
I don't think you understood the post........

I've asked Steve to explain why he felt the E39 made it into the top 4 and for some reason it appears that you take that to mean I don't believe it deserves to be there.

A question is different than an opinion Rvacha...
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      09-15-2007, 05:27 PM   #66
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Howdy

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I don't get the hatred of technology....
Howdy enigma, good to see you back here posting again. I know you get a bit put off by some aspects of the forum, but I always look forward to your quality posts.
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