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      04-17-2013, 07:17 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
It may not do much better than regular one, if you keep square set up. I rode in Euro MDM car with square set up (R-comps though), and it seemed more intrusive than in mine with stock proportion of tire diameters.

It seems you know mosport, so just for reference, I can do ~1:39 time at mostport (street tires) with Euro MDM not blinking a single time and probably not interfering. If I push for a faster lap, I can feel it on the entrance to 8 and exit of 4 and 5, just reducing rotation in all cases. Still, low 1:38 in a stock car on AD08 (stock diameters) is doable with Euro MDM not being a pest. I could not go below 1:38 with it off either, but I've seen it done on comparable tires.

I did find it more intrusive at Calabogie.

Anyway, what I'd really like is a system that would not interfere at all unless you are really beyond saving without computer interference - kind of a built-in track insurance. Should be possible, given all the tech available now.
Traction control relies on grip...if it can't save you while still on pavement, then it won't be able to pull you back onto the track.

I was just driving a Mustang GT on the track...even with traction control off it would still interfere. The system was really more of a throttle cut but it would finally interfere just as I would hang the rear out. It wasn't a smooth engagement...it was disabling.

Part of the bad side to MDM is that it's quite silent to someone who has not had a bunch of seat time. I can see what you're requesting being possible but not with the gentle nudge of MDM...more of the complete throttle cut of ASC or that Mustang's.
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      04-17-2013, 12:45 PM   #68
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Such a system exists. It's called prayer...
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      04-17-2013, 12:52 PM   #69
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Such a system exists. It's called prayer...
Does it work?
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      04-17-2013, 01:14 PM   #70
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The prayers usually don't begin until after you've gone agricultural.

We all remember this video, right?
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      04-18-2013, 09:00 AM   #71
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^^ Ah yes, the Climbing Esses. Such fun. Gotta late apex the hell outof the first one, and keep the wheels straight over the hump on the second one. Tsk, tsk...

Nice car, poor bastard ("please don't hit the wall, please don't...STOP!! )
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      04-18-2013, 02:31 PM   #72
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So he got light and was off line and tried to correct?
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      04-18-2013, 03:16 PM   #73
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He had to check up because of the car in front of him. Since he was decelerating (even just engine drag especially at high rpm) while getting light over the crest, then having the wheels turned...all ended up getting the car out of shape.

You have to pretty much give up steering, and just get the car slowed down in a straight line, then turn once it's settled after that first hump. You're taught early on that you need to "commit" or "bail" in that part of the track. You can't just slow down and lift.
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      04-18-2013, 03:19 PM   #74
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^^ Ah yes, the Climbing Esses. Such fun. Gotta late apex the hell outof the first one, and keep the wheels straight over the hump on the second one. Tsk, tsk...

Nice car, poor bastard ("please don't hit the wall, please don't...STOP!! )
Was that a "STOP" or a "F#CK!"?
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      04-18-2013, 08:19 PM   #75
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Does it work?
Only if you close your eyes and put your hands together

DISCLAIMER: Don't do that...

That comes down to situational awareness and exit strategies. The car in front should be predictable but you ALWAYS need to understand how you will adjust should something happen.

If the situation should require it, a pass without a point is an option and an exit strategy. Sometimes (usually IMO) slowing down to a stop or crawl is the worst option. I'll take a black flag vs wadding my car up.

DISCLAIMER: This should not be an option exercise because someone won't point you by.

Lastly, I tell my students to always be careful of corvettes and vipers which are notorious for parking in the corners. I force them to back off when approaching a braking zone. Also makes for a better pass since you'll have room to accelerate out of the corners.
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      05-15-2013, 10:08 AM   #76
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finally sacked up and turned traction off for my last session last night. Wow, I didn't realize how communicative the rear end is in these things and how well balanced the car was. Took a second a lap (70 second lap) with TCS off versus MDM. I think I've seen the light!

*i should point out that I was surprised by the car's stability mainly due to the fact that the only other car I've tracked with no stability control was an overpowered, under sprung supra, which would try to spin itself at any given opportunity
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      05-15-2013, 11:56 AM   #77
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Quote:
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That comes down to situational awareness and exit strategies. The car in front should be predictable but you ALWAYS need to understand how you will adjust should something happen.

If the situation should require it, a pass without a point is an option and an exit strategy. Sometimes (usually IMO) slowing down to a stop or crawl is the worst option. I'll take a black flag vs wadding my car up.
Funny you mention this. At the last track event (Laps @ RA), the head guy did mention this as an option, particularly for the advanced students, that passing in the corner might be a "intelligent option", rather than going off, even if it did come at the cost of a black flag if the corner worker thought it was too unsafe. He did quickly follow that up by stating that he didn't want to hear any reports about any cars taking the "intelligent option" in every corner (I don't think I have his phrasing quite right, the way he said it was pretty funny).
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      05-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apecush View Post
finally sacked up and turned traction off for my last session last night. Wow, I didn't realize how communicative the rear end is in these things and how well balanced the car was. Took a second a lap (70 second lap) with TCS off versus MDM. I think I've seen the light!
*i should point out that I was surprised by the car's stability mainly due to the fact that the only other car I've tracked with no stability control was an overpowered, under sprung supra, which would try to spin itself at any given opportunity
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      05-15-2013, 01:01 PM   #79
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I did my first track day on the ///M3 this past Sunday, ran one session with MDM and went DSC OFF right after. Wanted to see if MDM was better than DTC on my last 135, and it kinda was, but still too intrusive at times, specially slow speed, high load corners.

DSC Off, car feels much more balanced and predictable in way, but the obvious fact that'll be easier to get out of control if not one is not careful.

DSC OFF I say
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      05-15-2013, 01:13 PM   #80
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I will be trying dsc off for the first time this event this weekend

1m though
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      05-15-2013, 06:38 PM   #81
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DSC Off gives me a woody.
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      05-15-2013, 10:03 PM   #82
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There was a guy in a GT3RS in one of the PCA COTA race groups last weekend running full stability during the race. You could hear it cut in.
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      05-16-2013, 12:41 AM   #83
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Quote:
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There was a guy in a GT3RS in one of the PCA COTA race groups last weekend running full stability during the race. You could hear it cut in.
Race traction control logic != BMW DSC. Most of the pro traction control systems allow you to basically turn in, and bury your foot to the floor, and the system will dole out just the right amount of throttle to get you through the corner as quickly as possible. Few drivers, pro or amateur alike, can actually drive a car FASTER without race traction control.
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      05-16-2013, 01:43 AM   #84
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Traction control (TC) is designed to maximize the longitudinal traction of the tires by preventing excessive tire spinning. In other words, it monitors wheel slip and will apply brakes/reduce engine power when slippage occurs.

Stability control (DSC in BMW terms) adds lateral traction control to TC. It monitors the steering, yaw, and lateral acceleration of the car to control the rotation of the car. It "steers" the car by applying brakes at individual wheels.

People tend to mix up the two but they are NOT the same.
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      05-16-2013, 10:18 AM   #85
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Quote:
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Traction control (TC) is designed to maximize the longitudinal traction of the tires by preventing excessive tire spinning. In other words, it monitors wheel slip and will apply brakes/reduce engine power when slippage occurs.

Stability control (DSC in BMW terms) adds lateral traction control to TC. It monitors the steering, yaw, and lateral acceleration of the car to control the rotation of the car. It "steers" the car by applying brakes at individual wheels.

People tend to mix up the two but they are NOT the same.
how primitive is dsc on an e46 m3?
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      05-16-2013, 11:15 AM   #86
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how primitive is dsc on an e46 m3?
It has DSC but may be an earlier version compared to the E9X.

But why do you need it anyway
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      05-16-2013, 11:22 AM   #87
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Quote:
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how primitive is dsc on an e46 m3?
I remember the DSC on my Z4M being very intrusive.

edit: Except on rainy days where I felt it wasn't even trying.
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      05-16-2013, 11:43 AM   #88
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I remember the DSC on my Z4M being very intrusive.

edit: Except on rainy days where I felt it wasn't even trying.
Are you kidding? The DSC in the Z4M is the least intrusive of all BMWs ever made. With DSC on it'll easily allow me up to 5 of chassis rotation before it'll reign me in. Heck I've gotten the back end to step out with DSC on more often than with DSC off on the Z4M, believe it or not.
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