BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-15-2013, 02:19 PM   #23
Dkhan23
3
Banned
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada/USA

Posts: 360
iTrader: (0)

Nice write up!
Dkhan23 is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      03-15-2013, 03:10 PM   #24
Mr. ///M3 RD
78
Major General
 
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
 
Drives: E350 & 280 SL on Weekends :)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

Posts: 7,863
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Thanks for the great and well written original post

Recommend for the Administrator and or Moderators to make this a Sticky in the appropriate maintenance area of this forum so everyone (regardless of BMW make can benefit from this),

I like to add one item of note ... Vibration increases by the square of the speed (RPM) the result of course being the faster you go the more vibration you feel at the steering wheel ... and the longer you tolerate it the higher your repair bill will be eventually ... it goes without saying other related parts and components will wear and or fail.
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Mr. ///M3 RD is offline   Canada
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      03-15-2013, 03:16 PM   #25
mlhj83
10
Scythe-Meister
 
mlhj83's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

Posts: 1,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. ///M3 RD
Thanks for the great and well written original post

Recommend for the Administrator and or Moderators to make this a Sticky in the appropriate maintenance area of this forum so everyone (regardless of BMW make can benefit from this),

I like to add one item of note ... Vibration increases by the square of the speed (RPM) the result of course being the faster you go the more vibration you feel at the steering wheel ... and the longer you tolerate it the higher your repair bill will be eventually ... it goes without saying other related parts and components will wear and or fail.
Cheers!
mlhj83 is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      03-15-2013, 03:24 PM   #26
Mr. ///M3 RD
78
Major General
 
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
 
Drives: E350 & 280 SL on Weekends :)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

Posts: 7,863
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsiciliano View Post
Add to the list-spacers. Took mine off, vibration stopped. Others have had similar experience.
Actually if you ask a well qualified BMW service technician or service assistant he will tell you "BMW does not recommend spacers on your car"

I tend to agree with this if you think about it anything that is machined (both sides of course along with matching spigots on your spacers) has a machining tolerance. So accumulated tolerances of the afore mentioned areas will add up along with the original parts may just contribute to wheel position misalignment that would be on and above the recommended OEM allowable tolerances.

The wheels being the most important part between our car and the road, I take this very seriously. Perhaps I'm overcautious due to my long engineering background, I see this from a different point of view.

Your removal of the spacers and eliminating vibration may very well have been exactly what I mentioned before ... vibration due to accumulated tolerances (adding up the face to face squareness and run-outs TIR [Total Indicator Readings] etc.).
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Mr. ///M3 RD is offline   Canada
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      03-15-2013, 03:28 PM   #27
mlhj83
10
Scythe-Meister
 
mlhj83's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

Posts: 1,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. ///M3 RD
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsiciliano View Post
Add to the list-spacers. Took mine off, vibration stopped. Others have had similar experience.
Actually if you ask a well qualified BMW service technician or service assistant he will tell you "BMW does not recommend spacers on your car"

I tend to agree with this if you think about it anything that is machined (both sides of course along with matching spigots on your spacers) has a machining tolerance. So accumulated tolerances of the afore mentioned areas will add up along with the original parts may just contribute to wheel position misalignment that would be on and above the recommended OEM allowable tolerances.

The wheels being the most important part between our car and the road, I take this very seriously. Perhaps I'm overcautious due to my long engineering background, I see this from a different point of view.

Your removal of the spacers and eliminating vibration my very well have been exactly what I mentioned before ... vibration due to accumulated tolerances (adding up the face to face squareness and run-outs TIR [Total Indicator Readings] etc.).
To echo, any runout anywhere on the wheel hub area is greatly magnified towards the outer circumference of the wheel.
mlhj83 is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      03-15-2013, 04:11 PM   #28
BimmerRob08
12
Major
 
BimmerRob08's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 M3, Space Gray
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: KIKR (ABQ), NM

Posts: 1,257
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by llis View Post
78. You're driving on a crappy road.
NM has crap roads for sure, but for real though, even on smooth highway this happens.
BimmerRob08 is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2013, 11:22 AM   #29
youngvedder
1
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2008 e93 M3
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Burlington, ON

Posts: 131
iTrader: (1)

great overview...thanks.
__________________
'08 e93 / H&R Springs/MS spacers rear 15/AFE intake/RPI Scoops/AKRA Evo/Rouge Pulleys/Apex Arc-8 265/285/Evolve-R (240e)
youngvedder is offline   Canada
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2013, 12:09 PM   #30
4corners
8
Captain
 
4corners's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Jet Black M3 Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Yucca Valley, CA - Kelowna, BC

Posts: 804
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [0.00]
2007 Ford E350 4x4  [2.75]
I get the vibration sometimes. Not every time. It makes me think it may be related to the braking somehow. Is it a rapid pulsing of the brake system vs. a vibration?
4corners is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2013, 02:23 PM   #31
mlhj83
10
Scythe-Meister
 
mlhj83's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

Posts: 1,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4corners View Post
I get the vibration sometimes. Not every time. It makes me think it may be related to the braking somehow. Is it a rapid pulsing of the brake system vs. a vibration?
When are you getting the vibration?

What speed?
Accelerating, cruising or braking?
Do you feel vibration in the brake pedal?
Is the vibration rhythmic?
Any recent changes to the car?
mlhj83 is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2013, 02:51 PM   #32
4corners
8
Captain
 
4corners's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Jet Black M3 Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Yucca Valley, CA - Kelowna, BC

Posts: 804
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [0.00]
2007 Ford E350 4x4  [2.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
When are you getting the vibration?

What speed? Higher speeds above 75-80 mph, but not everytime
Accelerating, cruising or braking?
Harder braking
Do you feel vibration in the brake pedal? Not in the pedal, pretty much completely the steering wheel, especially if I hit them hard going into a turn vs. a straight line. And fwiw my yawl/DSC comes on way to early IMO. Hoping restoring 1/2 inch stagger with new 265's in front resolves that
Is the vibration rhythmic? extremely rythmic vs. as the wheel turns, like the cow bell rock issue
Any recent changes to the car?EBC Green pads, turned rotors, added 12 mm spacers because I put 285's on the rear. When my fronts are worn, soon, front gets 265's so I'll eliminate the spacer. Spacer to reduce understeer until new tires. All these can be the culprit by themselves. Much less add them all at once.

But! the brakes are smooth as silk at lower speeds.
Thanks

Last edited by 4corners; 04-30-2013 at 02:58 PM.
4corners is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2013, 03:02 PM   #33
mlhj83
10
Scythe-Meister
 
mlhj83's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

Posts: 1,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4corners View Post
Thanks
If it's only during hard braking (but smooth on cruising), then obviously, it's most likely brake related rather than anything to do with wheels, tyres or suspension.

ABS pulsation is quite obvious as you can feel (through the pedal as well) and hear the high frequency blunt knocking noise as the ABS pulses.

I would start by having your brake discs checked for excessive runout at your dealership or reputable mechanic. There is a good chance that your discs are/have (one or more of the following):

1) not sitting flush and flat with the wheel bearing
2) uneven pad deposits
3) warped due to wear and uneven skimming

Note that spacers and larger/wider wheels/tyres will exacerbate any form of vibration around the wheel area, due to the fact that the wheels (+ extra weight) are further out of the car, which increases the effect of centrifugal force on the spinning axis.
mlhj83 is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2013, 05:12 PM   #34
4corners
8
Captain
 
4corners's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Jet Black M3 Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Yucca Valley, CA - Kelowna, BC

Posts: 804
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [0.00]
2007 Ford E350 4x4  [2.75]
Personally I think if tire and wheel sizes are correct you should not use spacers except for temporary fine tuning.

Thanks for the info all.

Since I put new tires on my car and removed the spacers it is 1000 times better. It seems to be settling in and getting increasingly smoother.

Last edited by 4corners; 06-05-2013 at 12:50 PM.
4corners is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      08-27-2013, 01:29 PM   #35
Miami11M3
0
New Member
 
Drives: 2011 BMW M3
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: 305

Posts: 27
iTrader: (0)

Very helpful
Miami11M3 is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      08-27-2013, 02:21 PM   #36
slicer
38
Brigadier General
 
slicer's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

Posts: 3,878
iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Note that spacers and larger/wider wheels/tyres will exacerbate any form of vibration around the wheel area, due to the fact that the wheels (+ extra weight) are further out of the car, which increases centrifugal force.
Maybe I'm missing something but isn't centrifugal force associated with something that is spinning? Isn't it increased when you increase your distance or weight from the center of the spinning object? Isn't that increase something that would occur as you increased the distance and/or the weight from the center of the wheel/hub toward towards the direction of the tire? A spacer doesn't increase that distance at all, it only moves the center of the rotating object (the wheel) horizontally outward which is not the direction of the centrifugal force.

Incorrectly installed or poorly constructed spacers can definitely cause vibrations but I don't see how centrifugal force has anything to do with it. I do realize that centrifugal force is in play as part of the vibration but having a wider wheel or moving the horizontal position of the wheel is not a factor on its own. The source of vibration from a spacer would be due to it not being installed flat against the hub and wheel (due to debris or tightening the lugs with weight on the tire/wheel), not allowing the wheel to be hub-centric (aka not centered on the hub), or not being of uniform thickness (same affect as not being installed flat against the hub or wheel).
__________________
ALL PARTS FOR SALE (click links) -
KW Clubsport 3-way, Akrapovic Evolution, Mode Carbon GTS Wing, BBS E05 (18x10/11), BMW Pedals Billet Extended DCT Paddles, Advan TC3 (9.5/10.5), Recaro Profi-XL & Planted Seat Brackets

Last edited by slicer; 08-27-2013 at 02:32 PM.
slicer is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      08-27-2013, 03:12 PM   #37
mlhj83
10
Scythe-Meister
 
mlhj83's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

Posts: 1,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Note that spacers and larger/wider wheels/tyres will exacerbate any form of vibration around the wheel area, due to the fact that the wheels (+ extra weight) are further out of the car, which increases centrifugal force.
Maybe I'm missing something but isn't centrifugal force associated with something that is spinning? Isn't it increased when you increase your distance or weight from the center of the spinning object? Isn't that increase something that would occur as you increased the distance and/or the weight from the center of the wheel/hub toward towards the direction of the tire? A spacer doesn't increase that distance at all, it only moves the center of the rotating object (the wheel) horizontally outward which is not the direction of the centrifugal force.

Incorrectly installed or poorly constructed spacers can definitely cause vibrations but I don't see how centrifugal force has anything to do with it. I do realize that centrifugal force is in play as part of the vibration but having a wider wheel or moving the horizontal position of the wheel is not a factor on its own. The source of vibration from a spacer would be due to it not being installed flat against the hub and wheel (due to debris or tightening the lugs with weight on the tire/wheel), not allowing the wheel to be hub-centric (aka not centered on the hub), or not being of uniform thickness (same affect as not being installed flat against the hub or wheel).
Perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough. When there is existing imbalance (for whatever reason) in the wheel/tyre, the centrifugal force is obviously unequal, this imbalance is made worse when the wheel is pushed further away from the car by the spacer. This is because, when the wheel is further away from the hub, the suspension arms and spring/damper will be less effective at damping the vibration - much like if you held a metal rod at one end with a spinning lob-sided weight at the other end, whereby, the closer you move your grip to the spinning weight, the better you will be at controlling the vibration, vice versa.

Last edited by mlhj83; 08-27-2013 at 03:47 PM.
mlhj83 is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      08-27-2013, 09:42 PM   #38
slicer
38
Brigadier General
 
slicer's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

Posts: 3,878
iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough. When there is existing imbalance (for whatever reason) in the wheel/tyre, the centrifugal force is obviously unequal, this imbalance is made worse when the wheel is pushed further away from the car by the spacer. This is because, when the wheel is further away from the hub, the suspension arms and spring/damper will be less effective at damping the vibration - much like if you held a metal rod at one end with a spinning lob-sided weight at the other end, whereby, the closer you move your grip to the spinning weight, the better you will be at controlling the vibration, vice versa.
I see what you are saying. Thanks for clarifying.
__________________
ALL PARTS FOR SALE (click links) -
KW Clubsport 3-way, Akrapovic Evolution, Mode Carbon GTS Wing, BBS E05 (18x10/11), BMW Pedals Billet Extended DCT Paddles, Advan TC3 (9.5/10.5), Recaro Profi-XL & Planted Seat Brackets
slicer is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      08-28-2013, 10:43 AM   #39
ChrisK
48
Brigadier General
 
ChrisK's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: IL

Posts: 4,864
iTrader: (4)

^

Another fact, you are more likely to have vibration issues with ZCP (359) wheels than the 220 wheels because of the offset.
__________________

2011 E92 M3: AW/BLK • DCT
Europäische Lieferung am 6. August 2010
ChrisK is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      08-28-2013, 10:54 AM   #40
ChrisK
48
Brigadier General
 
ChrisK's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: IL

Posts: 4,864
iTrader: (4)

I never had vibrations until i switched from 359->220 wheels
__________________

2011 E92 M3: AW/BLK • DCT
Europäische Lieferung am 6. August 2010
ChrisK is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      06-04-2014, 10:36 PM   #41
flea333
4
Lieutenant
 
flea333's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 M3 ZCP, LMB, DCT
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: South Bay Area, CA

Posts: 449
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 328i  [0.00]
I got new PSS's on my car and upped the size by 1 and now my steering wheel has a minor vibration. I got it done at America's tire and they have lifetime balance for free. Problem is, everytime I took my car there, they f'd up my rims and scratched up my lugs. Even after I asked for hand removal some clown didn't use a breaker bar and f'd it up hard after yanking on it.

So the question is... do I risk them f'in up my rims and lugs again, and a hideous job removing the old weights and putting on theirs?
__________________
2013 M3 LMB, DCT, ZCP, Premium, EPS, Bamboo Beige, Apps, sunroof
flea333 is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:21 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST