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      04-05-2013, 02:23 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
This can result in a sudden snap oversteer situation .
I prefer to just call it a "fun" situation.
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      04-05-2013, 04:33 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The worst habit is pinching the steering wheel while applying throttle coming out of a turn... But with DSC off, this could lead to a big moment on corner exit.
I've become an expert at that.

But, my most-recent track day (Chuckwalla a couple of weeks ago) was the first event wherein, after each corners, I conscientiously tried to unwind the steering wheel as I got on the gas and let the car drift out to track out. I can feel the lateral G force as the car tracked out, and the car did not get all dramatic. It felt great. I've had to do big correction only once all day. I expect my track videos will look boring from now on.


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I prefer to just call it a "fun" situation.
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Last edited by OC3; 04-07-2013 at 03:51 PM.
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      04-05-2013, 04:36 PM   #47
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Or adding more steering as the car approaches the apex (after its loaded up) usually caused by not looking at the apex until after you turned in.
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      04-05-2013, 05:10 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
Or adding more steering as the car approaches the apex (or, put in another way, turning in too early)..
Yep. Pinching a corner + high entry speed = spin/oversteer *before* apex (heck, drifters do that intentionally to initiate drifts).

After I went DSC off in April of last year, this is exactly what I experienced (and, my "Oh Sh*t Moments" video series commenced with Chuckwalla video in May). Took me a while to figure out the cause.

Thorny's and Mthrice's recent videos (the big spins at the end of each videos) are both due to pinching the corner.
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Last edited by OC3; 04-06-2013 at 01:03 AM.
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      04-05-2013, 05:13 PM   #49
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DSC off and pinching the steering wheel and more throttle on exit...and then SAVING it!



I know its slow and expensive but its fun.
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      04-06-2013, 06:33 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
DSC off and pinching the steering wheel and more throttle on exit...and then SAVING it!



I know its slow and expensive but its fun.
Nice save

Almost looks intentional

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-08-2013 at 06:13 AM.
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      04-06-2013, 09:19 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Almost looks intentional
No it wasnt... I blame Kaiv for this sickness of wanting to ruin my rear tires.
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      04-13-2013, 01:08 PM   #52
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I found Euro mdm to be a good compromise between dsc off and US MDM.... over at the ridge motorsports park yesterday I was in a few controllable slides and had the back coming around a few times but it felt smooth and MDM never intervened.
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      04-13-2013, 01:32 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by w00tw00t View Post
I found Euro mdm to be a good compromise between dsc off and US MDM.... over at the ridge motorsports park yesterday I was in a few controllable slides and had the back coming around a few times but it felt smooth and MDM never intervened.
Are you sure about that ?
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      04-13-2013, 02:24 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Are you sure about that ?
nope, DSC light never came on but don't really care that much - I had fun and that's what I'm really after.. safefun, improving lap times and chasing down GT3s and 911s... The way I look at it is if I end up pinching the wheel or mistreating the throttle at most my car goes sideways a bit and a light comes on ... vs a full on spin ... I'll take the former anyday.. atleast until I can afford a third cheap track car..
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      04-15-2013, 09:06 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w00tw00t View Post
nope, DSC light never came on but don't really care that much - I had fun and that's what I'm really after.. safefun, improving lap times and chasing down GT3s and 911s... The way I look at it is if I end up pinching the wheel or mistreating the throttle at most my car goes sideways a bit and a light comes on ... vs a full on spin ... I'll take the former anyday.. atleast until I can afford a third cheap track car..
MDM can do quick corrections without flashig the light in the cluster. Ti-Jean's video with data logging is very interresting in showing how MDM applies brakes where he did not expect it.

I think Ti-Jean said it best here: with Euro MDM you still need to manage the steering while MDM handles the throttle, however with DSC off you need to manage both steering and throttle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti-Jean View Post
For me, here is how I describe going from Euro MDM to DSC off from a driving perspective. While driving with Euro MDM, you need to make steering angle correction when the rear end comes loose but you don't have to worry about throttle input (the computer is doing that for you). Going to DSC off, you need to both make steering correction and modulate throttle to make it out in one piece. The earlier you learn to do both, the better
In the end, what makes you happy and safe is the best for you . Just be wary when you DO turn off MDM, any bad habbits may bite you (even with a cheap track car) .

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-15-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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      04-15-2013, 08:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w00tw00t View Post
nope, DSC light never came on but don't really care that much - I had fun and that's what I'm really after.. safefun, improving lap times and chasing down GT3s and 911s... The way I look at it is if I end up pinching the wheel or mistreating the throttle at most my car goes sideways a bit and a light comes on ... vs a full on spin ... I'll take the former anyday.. atleast until I can afford a third cheap track car..
I'm not in the camp of...you MUST turn DSC off. It is a personal decision because who paid for the car, right? If you are out there for just fun then keeping it on might be the right personal decision.

BUT...you really are missing out. While I have not tried euro MDM but I think anyone wanting to become an advanced level driver that can trail brake, throttle steer, and intentionally and aggressively slide and rotate the car needs to turn DSC off. The M3 can do that stuff and do it very well in an easily controllable manner. And its super fun! I think it is borderline dangerous for a driver in a fast advanced group to rely on the nannies to save them because what you are not doing is being aware of all the feedback from the car. IMO, it breeds complacency.

On a side note, I do know that The Driver's Edge will NOT promote you from blue to yellow (run groups from green-blue-yellow-red) if you drive with traction control on. I'm curious to see what PCA and BMWCCA say about traction control.
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      04-15-2013, 09:49 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I'm not in the camp of...you MUST turn DSC off. It is a personal decision because who paid for the car, right? If you are out there for just fun then keeping it on might be the right personal decision.

BUT...you really are missing out. While I have not tried euro MDM but I think anyone wanting to become an advanced level driver that can trail brake, throttle steer, and intentionally and aggressively slide and rotate the car needs to turn DSC off. The M3 can do that stuff and do it very well in an easily controllable manner. And its super fun! I think it is borderline dangerous for a driver in a fast advanced group to rely on the nannies to save them because what you are not doing is being aware of all the feedback from the car. IMO, it breeds complacency.

On a side note, I do know that The Driver's Edge will NOT promote you from blue to yellow (run groups from green-blue-yellow-red) if you drive with traction control on. I'm curious to see what PCA and BMWCCA say about traction control.
alright you fools!!.. I will try DSC off .... ..
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      04-15-2013, 10:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w00tw00t View Post
alright you fools!!.. I will try DSC off .... ..
dont let em goad you. take it at your own pace. the e92 is relatively easy to handle in the dry with dsc off. you will find you drive more slowly at first being cautious and then experiment with what you can and cant do. then pace picks right back up.
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      04-15-2013, 11:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
dont let em goad you. take it at your own pace. the e92 is relatively easy to handle in the dry with dsc off. you will find you drive more slowly at first being cautious and then experiment with what you can and cant do. then pace picks right back up.
i'll try it the next time at the ridge... less concrete to hit over there.
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      04-16-2013, 08:11 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I'm not in the camp of...you MUST turn DSC off. It is a personal decision because who paid for the car, right? If you are out there for just fun then keeping it on might be the right personal decision.

BUT...you really are missing out. While I have not tried euro MDM but I think anyone wanting to become an advanced level driver that can trail brake, throttle steer, and intentionally and aggressively slide and rotate the car needs to turn DSC off. The M3 can do that stuff and do it very well in an easily controllable manner. And its super fun! I think it is borderline dangerous for a driver in a fast advanced group to rely on the nannies to save them because what you are not doing is being aware of all the feedback from the car. IMO, it breeds complacency.

On a side note, I do know that The Driver's Edge will NOT promote you from blue to yellow (run groups from green-blue-yellow-red) if you drive with traction control on. I'm curious to see what PCA and BMWCCA say about traction control.
+1

It's also ironic that even in MDM mode, you can hardly feel one of the best features of the car. The M3's LSD. In order to get that grunt and tug out of the corner, all nannies need to be off.
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      04-16-2013, 11:11 AM   #61
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Tough decision, especially for your first-first time.

Last edited by WarrantyTracker; 04-25-2013 at 09:47 AM.
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      04-16-2013, 05:15 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
MDM can do quick corrections without flashig the light in the cluster. Ti-Jean's video with data logging is very interresting in showing how MDM applies brakes where he did not expect it.

I think Ti-Jean said it best here: with Euro MDM you still need to manage the steering while MDM handles the throttle, however with DSC off you need to manage both steering and throttle.
Not to criticise Ti-Jean's driving, but on that video Euro MDM interfered in situations that were suboptimal from the standpoint of driving fast. He was adding throttle while cornering on the limit without unwinding sufficiently. MDM masked that behavior a bit but not completely. Actually, even with MDM he needed to correct more than most drivers do when putting down a smooth fast lap. That makes me think that Euro MDM will not necessarily make a smooth driver slower, but it will mask mistakes some degree.

I datalogged runs with MDM, Euro MDM, and all-off at the same track (Mosport), and had some observations:

1. MDM does not adapt completely to change in tire diameters, so those running square set ups or any other set ups deviating from stock proportions may see it being much more intrusive.
2. MDM is much more lenient at lower speed and more strict at higher speeds. With euro MDM I can get 4-wheel drift through turn 5 (slow hairpin) and lay two black strips on exit. It let's rotate the car with throttle and gives me identical exit speed as all off mode when I drive it correctly. If I make a mistake, that's where things are different - a little too much throttle with MDM is invisible and the exit speed is still just as high, while with all off, it's a bit lower because of wheelspin. So with a small mistake MDM is faster but you may not know you made a mistake. With lot too much throttle MDM cuts engine power and does not give it back for a bit, completely messing up rotation and acceleration out of the corner - with all off, it's much easier/quicker to just back off the throttle and proceed normally.

At high speeds MDM is fairly strict - I can feel it in entrance to turn 8 when I trailbrake so late the rear tries to come around a bit (not a good idea at 100MPH+ anyway). With loud track pads I could actually hear it changing the tune of brake squeal.
3. Euro MDM in most cases allows slip angles that are higher than optimal slip angles of tires (at least at relatively low speed). So unless the track is very tight (e.g., autocross), in most conditions it should not make a good driver slower.
4. My best laps with Euro MDM and all off on Mosport are within 0.5 seconds, and consistency is about the same in both cases, but that's tough to tell because of traffic and stuff. Regular MDM was slower, and no MDM (just normal traction control) was MUCH MUCH slower (over 2 secs on the lap).


Anyway, back to the topic - I'd recommend MDM (Euro MDM if you can) until you 1) learn the line to the point that you no longer have WTF moments; 2) know how to control slide or spin (skidpad exercises). After that, it's a trade-off between risk and learning/enjoyment (MDM reduces risk but also reduces learning and potentially fun), and it's entirely up to you to decide. in some cases it may be worth it, in some not. I am fairly experienced but I do use Euro MDM when I come to a new track or want to try a different line just in case.
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      04-16-2013, 06:11 PM   #63
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The longer you keep the nannies on...the longer it will take to break the habits. All the while you are picking up speed. So the longer you wait...the higher the stakes unless you can really dial it back. Let's all be honest...how long will dial it back mode last after you point that first Miata by?

For the record...when I say its easy to trail brake, throttle steer, slide, drift, and rotate the car that's relative to other cars. If you've never done it before...don't start trying it at speed.
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      04-16-2013, 06:22 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
The longer you keep the nannies on...the longer it will take to break the habits. All the while you are picking up speed. So the longer you wait...the higher the stakes unless you can really dial it back. Let's all be honest...how long will dial it back mode last after you point that first Miata by?

For the record...when I say its easy to trail brake, throttle steer, slide, drift, and rotate the car that's relative to other cars. If you've never done it before...don't start trying it at speed.
cant i just pretend to be good.
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      04-16-2013, 06:45 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
Not to criticise Ti-Jean's driving, but on that video Euro MDM interfered in situations that were suboptimal from the standpoint of driving fast. He was adding throttle while cornering on the limit without unwinding sufficiently. MDM masked that behavior a bit but not completely. Actually, even with MDM he needed to correct more than most drivers do when putting down a smooth fast lap. That makes me think that Euro MDM will not necessarily make a smooth driver slower, but it will mask mistakes some degree.

I datalogged runs with MDM, Euro MDM, and all-off at the same track (Mosport), and had some observations:

1. MDM does not adapt completely to change in tire diameters, so those running square set ups or any other set ups deviating from stock proportions may see it being much more intrusive.
2. MDM is much more lenient at lower speed and more strict at higher speeds. With euro MDM I can get 4-wheel drift through turn 5 (slow hairpin) and lay two black strips on exit. It let's rotate the car with throttle and gives me identical exit speed as all off mode when I drive it correctly. If I make a mistake, that's where things are different - a little too much throttle with MDM is invisible and the exit speed is still just as high, while with all off, it's a bit lower because of wheelspin. So with a small mistake MDM is faster but you may not know you made a mistake. With lot too much throttle MDM cuts engine power and does not give it back for a bit, completely messing up rotation and acceleration out of the corner - with all off, it's much easier/quicker to just back off the throttle and proceed normally.

At high speeds MDM is fairly strict - I can feel it in entrance to turn 8 when I trailbrake so late the rear tries to come around a bit (not a good idea at 100MPH+ anyway). With loud track pads I could actually hear it changing the tune of brake squeal.
3. Euro MDM in most cases allows slip angles that are higher than optimal slip angles of tires (at least at relatively low speed). So unless the track is very tight (e.g., autocross), in most conditions it should not make a good driver slower.
4. My best laps with Euro MDM and all off on Mosport are within 0.5 seconds, and consistency is about the same in both cases, but that's tough to tell because of traffic and stuff. Regular MDM was slower, and no MDM (just normal traction control) was MUCH MUCH slower (over 2 secs on the lap).


Anyway, back to the topic - I'd recommend MDM (Euro MDM if you can) until you 1) learn the line to the point that you no longer have WTF moments; 2) know how to control slide or spin (skidpad exercises). After that, it's a trade-off between risk and learning/enjoyment (MDM reduces risk but also reduces learning and potentially fun), and it's entirely up to you to decide. in some cases it may be worth it, in some not. I am fairly experienced but I do use Euro MDM when I come to a new track or want to try a different line just in case.
I don't know if you read all of my posts in this thread, but we are mostly saying the same thing .

I cannot comment on Euro MDM as I don't have it yet (I should be getting it coded in a few weeks ). However, I really don't like using NA MDM on a dry track. This is probably amplified due to my square tire set-up, but I find it way too intrusive. It does not allow much throttle steer. If you want to do light correction with lift throttle to bring you back on line, MDM applies the front brake to prevent the rotation and slows you down, so you are now going slower but still pointing in the wrong direction . I am curious about trying out Euro MDM this summer.

Learning to drive without the stability systems does not mean never using them again. The first few laps of the day, even on a familiar track, I run with MDM on. I want to explore the track conditions first before I give up the safety net. Further, the M3, due to the M-differential, can be very treacherous in the wet. So I mostly keep MDM on in wet conditions, especially if there is accumulation on the track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
The longer you keep the nannies on...the longer it will take to break the habits. All the while you are picking up speed. So the longer you wait...the higher the stakes unless you can really dial it back. Let's all be honest...how long will dial it back mode last after you point that first Miata by?

For the record...when I say its easy to trail brake, throttle steer, slide, drift, and rotate the car that's relative to other cars. If you've never done it before...don't start trying it at speed.
Could not agree more . The longer one waits to turn off the aids, the bigger the risk when one does.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-16-2013 at 06:55 PM.
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      04-16-2013, 11:16 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
If you want to do light correction with lift throttle to bring you back on line, MDM applies the front brake to prevent the rotation and slows you down, so you are now going slower but still pointing in the wrong direction . I am curious about trying out Euro MDM this summer.
It may not do much better than regular one, if you keep square set up. I rode in Euro MDM car with square set up (R-comps though), and it seemed more intrusive than in mine with stock proportion of tire diameters.

It seems you know mosport, so just for reference, I can do ~1:39 time at mostport (street tires) with Euro MDM not blinking a single time and probably not interfering. If I push for a faster lap, I can feel it on the entrance to 8 and exit of 4 and 5, just reducing rotation in all cases. Still, low 1:38 in a stock car on AD08 (stock diameters) is doable with Euro MDM not being a pest. I could not go below 1:38 with it off either, but I've seen it done on comparable tires.

I did find it more intrusive at Calabogie.

Anyway, what I'd really like is a system that would not interfere at all unless you are really beyond saving without computer interference - kind of a built-in track insurance. Should be possible, given all the tech available now.
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