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      04-16-2013, 02:45 AM   #67
karussell
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Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
Let me tell you something, if you ever did that to me in my car on the track I would pull straight into the pits on the track and throw you the frick out of my car.

Are you kidding me? I have to believe you are just making this up.

You have zero right to turn dsc off in the middle of another persons lap. It could scare them and cause them to make an expensive mistake in a car that does not belong to you. Simply ridiculous.

In a thread full of asinine responses, yours takes the cake.
you are taking out of context here. if i'm working with a student we first need to establish trust. i trust this person with my life in their hands. I'm the passenger after all. the student trusts me to guide them to accomplish their goals. in the context of a race track that is to be consistent and accurate. end result is faster laps, better driver.

i said in a middle of a BAD lap. The student always gets to choose whatever settings they want on the car. now if he/she is consistently over-driving the car and its clear they are dependent on DSC, i would communicate with them that fact and turn off DSC on the front straight.

I am also interested in not crashing. trust me. i do care about the car's condition but far far more important its my student's life as well as mine. so i'm sure if i rode with you in the same condition you wouldn't kick me out of the car. if you were that close minded about it i would have asked to get out way before that anyways.
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Last edited by karussell; 04-16-2013 at 03:17 AM.
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      04-16-2013, 02:59 AM   #68
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Why? Why would you be driving so aggressively to the grocery store that DSC would become intrusive?
aggressive or sporting? its a sports car. everyone enjoys their cars in their own way. for the people that love to drive the car, i encourage DSC to be off. mainly its so you gain more confidence in yourself and the car. i don't condone street racing or any foolish acts on public roads. And if i'm taking the M3 anywhere its usually going to be the longer route that is more fun.

You could reverse the question as well. why do you feel you need the "security" of DSC On if you are just going to the grocery store?
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      04-16-2013, 07:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by karussell View Post
aggressive or sporting? its a sports car. everyone enjoys their cars in their own way. for the people that love to drive the car, i encourage DSC to be off. mainly its so you gain more confidence in yourself and the car. i don't condone street racing or any foolish acts on public roads. And if i'm taking the M3 anywhere its usually going to be the longer route that is more fun.

You could reverse the question as well. why do you feel you need the "security" of DSC On if you are just going to the grocery store?
Call it what you will but I think most people would agree that driving the car hard enough to break the tires lose on public roads would be considered aggressive.

And for your question of needing the "security" - well to me its just a senseless "risk" to turn it off if I am driving on local roads. I never have DSC interference in my daily driving so what benefit would I get from turning it off besides possibly being less safe? Its like saying why should I lock my house if I am just walking around the block? Sure the odds are that no one will break into your home but why take an unnecessary risk for no reason?

BTW I fully understand I will never convince you or anyone else who insists on driving on public roads with DSC off that its not a good idea and you will do it no matter what. The logical argument just doesnt support your position.
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      04-16-2013, 07:22 AM   #70
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I'd rather be in an M3 with an experienced driver with DSC off than with an inexperienced driver with it on.
Excess speed is far more dangerous than having DSC off...drive within the speed limits in a sensible manner and the whole DSC on/off discussion is irrelevant.
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      04-16-2013, 07:44 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by karussell View Post
Of course if a student insists on DSC enabled at the track I allow it. then I turn it off on them in the middle of their bad lap. guess what happens. they slow down, they hit apexes, they see reference points, they look up, they drive better!!! DSC is not a magic button.
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Originally Posted by karussell View Post
you are taking out of context here. if i'm working with a student we first need to establish trust. i trust this person with my life in their hands. I'm the passenger after all. the student trusts me to guide them to accomplish their goals. in the context of a race track that is to be consistent and accurate. end result is faster laps, better driver.

i said in a middle of a BAD lap. The student always gets to choose whatever settings they want on the car. now if he/she is consistently over-driving the car and its clear they are dependent on DSC, i would communicate with them that fact and turn off DSC on the front straight.

I am also interested in not crashing. trust me. i do care about the car's condition but far far more important its my student's life as well as mine. so i'm sure if i rode with you in the same condition you wouldn't kick me out of the car. if you were that close minded about it i would have asked to get out way before that anyways.
Re-read your original quote above. You clearly state that you would just up and turn it off in the middle of a lap, no comments about communicating that to the driver. Thats what I am responding to.

And as I said in my quote, i would hope that you would never do that, and it sounds like you dont.

I drive on the track with MDM on for now as I am still a relative beginner / intermediate on the track, and feel that it is unsafe at this point to be on a crowded track with DSC off for both myself and other drivers. Once I continue to learn to be smoother and drive with limited to zero MDM interference on the track, hopefully after the next couple events, I will experiment with all modes off while slowly gaining confidence driving with no traction control.

I personally would never drive with MDM off on a public road with other drivers. It is unneccessarily unsafe.
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      04-16-2013, 10:03 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I'd rather be in an M3 with an experienced driver with DSC off than with an inexperienced driver with it on.
Excess speed is far more dangerous than having DSC off...drive within the speed limits in a sensible manner and the whole DSC on/off discussion is irrelevant.
Drive sensibly with good awareness + DSC = even better. Both Tiff Needell and Steve Sutcliffe seem to agree.

Real world scenario: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xps...o#.UW1q0L-aReh

Nobody's perfect, all the skill and awareness in the world cannot prepare oneself for every eventuality, which is why engineers build safety nets to help reduce risk even further. But in the end of the day, it's up to the individual to decide what he or she wants.

Last edited by mlhj83; 04-16-2013 at 10:23 AM.
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      04-16-2013, 12:59 PM   #73
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To be honest, unless you've ever really driven your M to the limit with the DSC off on a race track, you shouldn't really attempt to on the road. I agree with Karrussel, I love to drive with the DSC off too when i'm enjoying the cars potential. It encourages you to use more thought, more control, and have more respect for the beast that you are taming.

Senorfunkypants is right too - an experienced/trained driver with DSC off, over inexperienced with DSC on, any day of the week. Ultimately you are your own limiting factor, if you're driving outside the limits of the car, whether that be with DSC activated, or deactivated it's going to bite you in the bum! I'm not saying a good DSC system isn't going to get you out of trouble, but it's not be the saving grace in every situation. I'd encourage any body with an M car to get themselves on to a trackday and see exactly what these cars are all about...
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      04-16-2013, 01:25 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reesy_csl View Post
To be honest, unless you've ever really driven your M to the limit with the DSC off on a race track, you shouldn't really attempt to on the road. I agree with Karrussel, I love to drive with the DSC off too when i'm enjoying the cars potential. It encourages you to use more thought, more control, and have more respect for the beast that you are taming.

Senorfunkypants is right too - an experienced/trained driver with DSC off, over inexperienced with DSC on, any day of the week. Ultimately you are your own limiting factor, if you're driving outside the limits of the car, whether that be with DSC activated, or deactivated it's going to bite you in the bum! I'm not saying a good DSC system isn't going to get you out of trouble, but it's not be the saving grace in every situation. I'd encourage any body with an M car to get themselves on to a trackday and see exactly what these cars are all about...
Point of this thread is, it's not about DSC taking away the fun when one wants to drive with enthusiasm at a suitable place and time, but rather, leaving it on when one is on the public road when there are others around, as even if one is driving well within one's and the car's limits, a sudden unforeseen event may occur that would require an avoidance manoeuvre which may upset the car, whereby DSC will react quicker than any human can. The fractions of a second saved can mean a lot.

Yes, driver education and training is far more important than DSC, but leaving DSC on is such a simple thing to do, at times when no benefits are to be gained by having it off - like driving on a motorway.

I myself turn it off when I'm on a track or when there's a quiet road, but leave it on the rest of the time.



Last edited by mlhj83; 04-16-2013 at 01:37 PM.
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      04-16-2013, 02:03 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post

I personally would never drive with MDM off on a public road with other drivers. It is unneccessarily unsafe.
It is good to know your limits.
I've just got back from a proper blast in my car in MDM...absolutely brilliant.
I also get the impression that the car accelerates quicker in the lower gears in MDM.
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      04-16-2013, 02:44 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I'd rather be in an M3 with an experienced driver with DSC off than with an inexperienced driver with it on.
Excess speed is far more dangerous than having DSC off...drive within the speed limits in a sensible manner and the whole DSC on/off discussion is irrelevant.
This makes no sense.

The videos show an emergency lane change maneuver at highway speeds. You can drive in a "within the speed limits in a sensible manner" all you want. This does not change what happens when someone not paying attention cuts into your lane and you have to react instantly. Statistically, you are 35-50% less likely to have a serious accident (e.g. lose control of your car) in this situation with DSC on. The video clearly shows professional drivers unable to control their cars with DSC off.

Furthermore, if you are driving on public roads "within the speed limits in a sensible manner" there is no reason or point to having DSC off in the first place.

So let's see. Drive in a "sensible manner" "within the speed limits." Hmm, let me turn DSC off for no reason so my car is significantly less safe in an accident situation I have no way of anticipating. Yeah, that makes sense.

For the record, on deserted back-roads and/or the track, turn it off, have fun, learn your car. Whatever, it's your right. It's the guys that drive in traffic surrounded by cars with DSC off that make no sense to me.
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      04-16-2013, 03:00 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo View Post

The videos show an emergency lane change maneuver at highway speeds. You can drive in a "within the speed limits in a sensible manner" all you want. This does not change what happens when someone not paying attention cuts into your lane and you have to react instantly. Statistically, you are 35-50% less likely to have a serious accident (e.g. lose control of your car) in this situation with DSC on. The video clearly shows professional drivers unable to control their cars with DSC off.

Furthermore, if you are driving on public roads "within the speed limits in a sensible manner" there is no reason or point to having DSC off in the first place.

So let's see. Drive in a "sensible manner" "within the speed limits." Hmm, let me turn DSC off for no reason so my car is significantly less safe in an accident situation I have no way of anticipating. Yeah, that makes sense.

For the record, on deserted back-roads and/or the track, turn it off, have fun, learn your car. Whatever, it's your right. It's the guys that drive in traffic surrounded by cars with DSC off that make no sense to me.
This.
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      04-16-2013, 03:36 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo View Post
The video clearly shows professional drivers unable to control their cars with DSC off.
Have you looked at the angle of the front wheels on Tiff cars as he loses control..they are pointing the wrong way!. Honestly I don't believe the Autocar car driver tried that hard either...its not that difficult.
I've done the lane swerve test in a Porsche 911 turbo on a Porsche training day without losing control.
But they want to make a point which is fair enough I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo View Post
Furthermore, if you are driving on public roads "within the speed limits in a sensible manner" there is no reason or point to having DSC off in the first place.
I don't drive with the DSC off (I only use MDM) and thats my choice but I wouldn't presume to preach that no one else should.
Excess speed is the major of accidents - preach about that if you really want to make a difference.
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      04-16-2013, 10:34 PM   #79
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In honor of this thread, I've done some driving this week with DSC off
  • Only in specific circumstances where it had my complete attention
  • The M did not in fact spin out of control
  • And as experienced previously (on the track), the M is very controllable and doesn't do anything unexpected
  • Also, it was interesting to get a fresh look at how / when DSC intervenes vs. off

With that said though, it'll stay on in almost all circumstances. Happy to have the help next time I hit a patch of gravel in a tight corner, or water in a sweeper, or some knucklehead texting while pulling into my lane

Cheers
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      04-17-2013, 01:06 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by M3Now!
In honor of this thread, I've done some driving this week with DSC off
  • Only in specific circumstances where it had my complete attention
  • The M did not in fact spin out of control
  • And as experienced previously (on the track), the M is very controllable and doesn't do anything unexpected
  • Also, it was interesting to get a fresh look at how / when DSC intervenes vs. off

With that said though, it'll stay on in almost all circumstances. Happy to have the help next time I hit a patch of gravel in a tight corner, or water in a sweeper, or some knucklehead texting while pulling into my lane

Cheers
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      04-17-2013, 01:27 AM   #81
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thanks for the video
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